I urge everyone who has the least interest in roses to please,please order the latest Vintage catalog. It is the most incredibly beautiful, useful rose reference BOOK available for the price. It will provide you with the names, synonyms, breeding, provenance, growth habit & descriptions of hundreds of roses. The thing is the size of a good-sized town phone book--gorgeously illustrated & just stuffed with great articles & useful information.

The sad fact that Vintage is stopping retail operations has NO effect on the value of this tremendous resource. I wore out the old catalog because I refer to it more often than Modern Roses. Just got the new one & the thing just blew me away. Get it while you can--you will be sooo glad to have it.

Here is a link that might be useful: Wow, new Vintage catalog

Somebody mentioned pink rosette which has been a shining star in my garden. Blooms constantly in big bouquets with few thorns and stays low. I have it in my parkway and it's never scratched anyone.

The Marie Pavie that Vintage has is much prettier than other MPs sent to me by other sources.

This seems really unfair and sad. Like Josephine's garden at Malmaison after she wasn't there to look after it anymore. I hope the vintage roses have a happier ending.

Pink Rosette

On my front strip. No kidding, this rose does this all year long off and on. You can cut one stem and some fern and it will fill a little vase. Vintage is full of roses like these that everyone should grow and isn't more popular.

The Pink Rosette is gorgeous, and that front strip is awesome.

Kitty, that is a beautiful planting and a beautiful rosé.

Kitty, You're so right about those roses. That planting is really beautiful! Don't forget the roses are not going anywhere right now. They are being preserved by The Friends of Vintage Roses.

Wonderful pictures, Kitty. You've also given me more courage about my long term ambitions to bring my front strip under cultivation.

That is just gorgeous. ARE & Chamblees used to carry PR.
I had one long ago & really loved it--even though it's not a fragrant rose. The fat round buds & flowers really appeal to me & it's such an easy keeper & good bloomer.

What a beautiful strip. The planting combos are wonderful.

Absolutely gorgeous Kitty. I had no idea this rose was so beautiful and prolific. Great choice for the center strip. Now I'm wishing I had this rose!

Ingrid

These eglantines are exclusive to VG in North America:

Anne of Geierstein
Jeannie Deans
Rosenwunder

I began looking into what roses were exclusive to VG last year when I first learned about the upcoming closure. I was surprised to find that a good third to half of the floribundas at Vintage can be found at no other mail order nursery in North America.

The floribundas of the mid 20th C tend to have the dimensions of what are now called patio roses. Most were low growing, not fragrant, had stunning colors, rapid repeat bloom and better disease resistance than the HTs of the same decades. I am particularaly fond of the floribundas from Mattias Tantau, Jr. Some, Pussta (not available at VG), Cinnabar, Juliska (not at VG), have been most satisfactory in my cold and wet zone 5 garden. OTOH Lapponia, a lovely peach rose, has yet to grow taller than 12" .

VG at the present time offers these Tantau floribundas, and they are not sold elsewhere in the USA.
Cinnabar
Lichterloh
Geisha
Dorothy Wheatcroft
Paprika

I have never really understood why the midcentury floribundas passed so quickly out of commerce when they are, to my mind, much more satisfactory as garden plants than many of the HTs from the same era. They tend to be compact growers, easily sited in todays smaller gardens, far less susceptible to disease than the HTs of the same era, and those in my garden bloom almost non-stop.

Nastrana, I totally agree with you about how wonderful many mid century floribundas were! Most were absolute flower factories, whether they had scent or HT form or not. Marvelous landscape plants, which meant nothing (or, at least, very little) to the rose buying public of the time. The real money was spent promoting the cut flower-exhibition darlings, Hybrid Teas. They were what buyers flocked to obtain and plant. That's why there was the push to put the high-centered, HT flower on floribunda plants. Unfortunately, the most efficient way to put that form on the floribundas was to continually breed HT into them, which diluted what was so good about them; their health, vigor and more useful plant habit. Kim

Nastarana and Kim, I couldn't agree with you more. One of the sad things about Vintage closing is we will no longer be able to scroll down through a long varied list of these roses. I feel this way about the shrub class also. There are some wonderful tough and beautiful roses there. Darn! I can't save them all.

I had intended twice to post, once when the thread had just been started, once when it was well along. The first time, my intended posting was so long and impassioned that I axed it; the second time, I managed to delete it when I meant to post it. Now, I see that others have already approached my main point, so I can be quick: Vintage Gardens, alongside its offerings of Old Roses proper, offered what are otherwise too much neglected: The "Middle-Aged" roses--those after the Old Rose era, but far from recent. As I write this, I have thoughts of the Floribundas of the 1950s and 1960s in my mind; others will perhaps be thinking of that era's Hybrid Teas, Grandifloras, and shrub roses. The joy that rediscovering these roses brought me is two-fold: First, the inherent beauties they offer; but more subtle is the second point. As just the right wine enhances the rest of the meal, so I found is it that my appreciation of the beauties of the classic Floribundas redoubled my love of the wonders that Old Roses proper had to offer. When I look at a 'Bambi', a 'Golden Slippers', a 'Ma Perkins', I see in them not only what strikes the eye, but also the whole heritage of rose history, not superseding the earlier roses, but celebrating them via their own distinctive success. What Vintage Gardens has done by uniquely providing us with their wide diversity of "Middle-Aged Roses" has been to enrich and sophisticate those canny or lucky enough to order these roses in a way those who grow only recent roses or, yes, only old roses, cannot achieve. This has been Vintage's special gift to Rosedom during its years in business; and it is something which we cannot hope will be repeated until the day that a self-perpetuating group of lovers of Middle-Aged Roses specifically takes up the cause and inspires "Middle-Aged Rose" nurseries as we have had Old Rose nurseries and modern rose nurseries. Perhaps VIntage's greatest bequest to us will indeed be that some will be moved to embrace Middle-Aged Roses as a specialty, to research them, to grow them, to make feasible nurseries devoted to them. Though the Dark Ages are again descending on non-recent roses--how long will this night be?--Vintage has sown seeds which will bloom in the fullness of time . . .

Odinthor -- You are right ...

" Though the Dark Ages are again descending on non-recent roses--how long will this night be?--Vintage has sown seeds which will bloom in the fullness of time . . ."

But it is really up to all of us, isn't it? To talk about them, to propagate them, and to share them forward.

They are, after all, the "Old Roses" of tomorrow.

Jeri

I fully agree with you about the Mid Century Floribundas, Brent. What many who haven't looked into them may not realize is what a part in rose development many of them played. Austin based his first "English Roses" on Poulsen's 1940 Dainty Maid. One of his original sources for red was LeGrice's 1947 Dusky Maiden. He went back to the early floribundas to create Dame Prudence, combining Ma Perkins, Ivory Fashion and Constance Spry. The Ma Perkins - Constance Spry seedling figures into Wife of Bath which was then further used quite a bit in creating newer English Roses. Ivory Fashion also figures into the creation of The Friar, and all of its many descendents.

Much later, he again went back to the old floribundas (and older American climbers), using Aloha with pollen from David Armstrong's 1966 floribunda, Yellow Cushion, to create Abraham Darby. There have been others used to create the popular English Roses, none of which would exist in anything resembling what we have today, had it not been for these great, older modern roses.

If you haven't already seen it, grow Moonsprite. It IS what an English rose for American gardens should be. It has all the form, the myrrh scent, the right color, "the look", all on a compact, bushy, continuous flowering plant. All this from a 1956 Herb Swim, introduced by Armstrong Roses, floribunda.

There is a wealth of incredibly beautiful landscape and garden roses represented by this unappreciated category. Without them, we wouldn't have much of what we grow today. Kim

Kim, I have the good fortune to have a 'Moonsprite' which had the bad fortune last year to be the closest rose to where some workers from the gas company were working on a pipe. In their doings, they sprayed some sort of gas or chemical into the air which killed every plant within two feet (mostly Columbines). 'Moonsprite' was fortunately about two and a half feet away, and so shed all of its leaves as a result; and its little twigs and branches died back to the larger branches. It's still recovering! But I have increasing confidence now that the plant will make it. Such is the wonderful vitality of the old Floribundas!

Brent/Kim, thank you both so much for your last posts...this forum is always full of great information, but this thread is bookmarkable for so very many reasons at this point.

I know that I do tend to pretty much skip right over the mid-century floribundas...as I do the English roses, frankly, lol, but I ADORE a good history lesson and want to thank you both for that.

Cheers!
~Anika

The mid-century floribundas are very intriguing, but I need no-spray roses. I'm beginning to think that most rose growers think that's a ludicrous thought. I had one lovely man say to me, "Oh, you like the sidewalk roses." I took that to mean roses that they're the ones that will even grow on the sidewalk - ?? Well, I was kind of put off by that remark, because I have a garden full of roses that basically aren't bothered by BS without spraying at all. So now I'm venturing into the world of "old" moderns, and I need to have some certainty about their health, that is, black spot resistance... in the hot, humid deep south. Lots of these roses mention "disease resistance", but I'm thinking they're referring to rust and mildew. So does anyone have any suggestions for black spot resistant roses on the available list -- that aren't really huge? This is probably a vain hope, but what the heck. Maybe I'm not the only one interested.

Thanks.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

But, Sherry--do you mean "no spray" roses or "no disease" roses? I haven't sprayed my roses in years. Remember that spraying kills the "good" fungi (i.e., the ones that keep the others in check) as well as the bad ones (think of the similar situation with bacteria in which, with people, doctors discourage too-frequent use of antibiotics). Nowadays, few of my roses show more than a touch of mildew or rust now and then (black spot is not a problem here). Yes, such roses as 'Yolande d'Aragon' or 'Roger Lambelin' will be orange with rust for a certain period; but, typically, then we'll go through a hot spell, they'll drop their diseased leaves, and new ones will grow that will be healthy for the rest of the season. Bringing this back to mid-century Floribundas, even that notorious rust-bucket, 'Fashion'--a rose with which my familiarity extends for about half a century--proved, to my astonishment, 99% rust-free after not being sprayed for about three years. Many people have chronic personal diseases with which they have learned to live quite happily; having that same attitude towards rose diseases is one option people can take.

I grew roses in a wet climate and never sprayed for ANY disease, EVER. Some of my roses got blackspot, they lived (and bloomed). Some got powdery mildew. They lived.

Spraying isn't necessary, it never has been. It's about your expectations. Sometimes a rose would lose ever single leaf to black spot. And then grow them back nice and clear and keep on going. *shrug* I agree with odinthor. Don't be scared off rose varieties because others consider them "spray required."

I'm now restricted to gardening in containers and trying to put together a little vintage order. MY limitation is the roses must stay fairly small. But there are still HUGE options!

Odinthor: great post, such timely observations. I started ordering more 'classic' HTs & floribundas last year, concerned that they might not be available since there is such a focus on OGRs, Ausins & the newest HTs.

Must 3rd the vote for Moonsprite. Great rose--and it's very fragrant. Oh, & Pink Chiffon--like Moonsprite, it has an old-rose look with overstuffed blooms & is very fragrant. I ordered it blind last year, just because of Vintage's description. Also Curly Pink, a Chrysler Imperial seedling--very pretty & fragrant.
Another fine old Floribunda I used to have is Gold Garnette--rich saturated yellow & fragrant, too.

Uhmm, is it okay to archive Vintage's web site to preserve the photos there now? Just occurred to me.

So I put together a little order. I'm patio gardening in pots so hugely limited for space, choosing JUST four was almost impossible.

Souvenir de la Malmaison
Silver Spoon
Distant Drums
Mme. Antoine Mari

Two of those I've grown before back in the days of my huge garden up North, it'll be interesting to see how they do in Texas. I really hope we can buy them out of their current stock.

IF I were back in 'collector mode'; IF I had unlimited room, water, energy and budget, these are some of the floribundas I would re collect. I can't speak to how they will perform or hold up under colder climates, nor under higher disease pressures, but these are some which I've either grown and enjoyed, or loved dealing with as a Huntington volunteer in that garden. Kim

Anna Wheatcroft - Single to semi double, salmon-orange silk petals with white bases. Tantau didn't think enough of it to retain it for release, but Harry Wheatcroft, ever the showman, loved it. He asked permission to introduce and name it for a member of his family. Tantau had to back peddle and ask to get pieces back. I'm glad as it is a beautiful rose.

Chanelle - "orange-pink" is a terrible color description for this rose. It's much softer and more feminine than that. Wonderful fragrance and a very lovely flower.

Cinnabar - very saturated, "red with brownish shading". Strong pigments have always attracted my eye and this one has never failed. It represents some pretty interesting genetics.

Dairy Maid - LeGrice introduced a line of single floribundas which have led to some pretty beautiful roses. Dairy Maid is one of my favorites. Milk white with pale lemon yellow tones which fade out quickly in higher heat. Very well scented, large, single flowers.

Gene Boerner - Gene Boerner defined and named the floribunda class. His nick name was Papa Floribunda (also the name of his biography). He selected a white HT to bear his name. When President Kennedy was assassinated, the J&P management selected that rose to name JFK. A few years later when Boerner passed away, they selected one of his seedlings for "his" rose. Their decision has been shown to be very wise. Gene Boerner is one of the finest floribundas to have been raised, and a tremendously better rose than JFK!. Tall, nearly shrub-like; very lightly prickled; healthy; vigorous and flowering any time you expect a rose to have flowers. It's an excellent landscape shrub and could be used to good effect with its white sport, White Gene Boerner, also on the Vintage list. Both Dee Bennett and Laurie Chaffin have raised some beautiful roses using Gene.

Golden Slippers - Gordon Von Abrams raised some beautiful roses. This is one of his. Strongly fragrant, yellow sun tanning pinks and oranges, semi double flowers give an ever changing kaleidoscope in your garden.

Morey's Pink - Previously discussed here on GW. One not to be missed. Unfortunately not released during Dr. Morey's life so he could see he was right in retaining the seedling. He felt it was "ahead of its time". I believe he was right.

Orangeade - One I have always enjoyed, and still grow. Also one of the most fertile roses I have ever grown, which, combined with its deeply saturated color, has led to it being one of the most used floribundas for breeding. It shows a good lavender zone around the base of the petals, which is a trait Ralph Moore took advantage of in creating his Halo Roses. High heat and brilliant sun deepen the orange and begin forming dark petal edges, almost like a deep brown to nearly black picotee.

Pimlico 81 - Beautifully formed, long lasting flowers with a deeply saturated, brilliant red color. Glossy, healthy, dark green foliage with cranberry new growth. Vigorous in my climate and one which always draws my eye. Named for the 1981 running of The Pimlico horse race.

Pink Bountiful - If the breeding is to be believed, this represents the cross of Centifolia X Polyantha. Very imaginative, particularly for 1943! Very fragrant, small, double flowers in a clean, clear pink with darker reverse.

Pink Chiffon - Light pink, quite double and strongly fragrant. Another Mid Century beauty from Gene Boerner and very aptly named IMO. One which always sold out when we propagated them for Huntington Sales.

Pink Parfait - A taller (sometimes classed as a grandiflora), very disease resistant rose. Semi double, medium pink blending sometimes to orange-pink with a light fragrance, it has lovely buds. The flowers are on the larger side for Mid Century floribundas. Used quite well to create and probably responsible for the health of Escapade, Inner Wheel and Portrait.

Sarabande - Who doesn't want to grow a rose named for a famous dance? Dense, saturated red to red orange, semi double flowers in decent sized clusters. Has always flowered continuously in my climate. There used to be a home with circular drive where I previously lived whose drive was lined with a short hedge of Sarabande. I don't think I ever saw it when it wasn't ablaze with solid color. Very impressive when used in mass.

Spanish Sun - A very little known deep yellow, double, very fragrant Boerner floribunda. Probably the source of fragrance (and color) for New Day (Friesia) and Sunsprite.

Sunbonnet - A deep yellow, sometimes with chartreuse tones, Herb Swim introduction, likely released to compete with Spanish Sun. More double and not quite as fragrant as Spanish Sun, but to my eye, a more interesting shade of yellow.

Swantje - When really happy, this can produce some very double flowers. When those happen, it reminds me of a dwarf Sombreuil, but that takes some heavy fertilizing and milder conditions than my plant usually enjoys. This was originally a "hybrid polyantha", introduced in 1936. The double flowers fade white from pale yellow-apricot petals with a light fragrance.
I have always loved what went in to creating this rose. Dorothy Perkins, Ophelia and several of her seedlings and sports, and Pernetiana through Pernet's 1901 Sunburst. One brought in to the US through the imports for the San Jose Heritage.

Sweet Vivian - To my eye, Frank Raffel's masterpiece. Usually less double than Vintage's form, but still as lovely and fun. Cream white petals heavily picoteed with dark, bright pink; centers illuminated by golden anthers and stamen. Not a lot of fragrance, but who cares? Darker, quite mildew resistant foliage on an acceptably vigorous, shorter plant. Those flowers have always felt to me like the fresh scrubbed cheeks of an English milk maid. I'm sorry if that's sexist!

Titian - An Australian entry! Deep pink, very nicely scented blooms which often show almost quartered centers until they open fully. Classed as a floribunda, but easily used as a repeat flowering climber. Horse lovers take note of the HMF References. "The horse ‘Titian’ was racing in Sydney 1949-1950, so its rose namesake was probably bred three or four years earlier."

Verona - Soft, very light pink quite double and almost thornless. Used as both florist and garden rose and named by its creator for his wife. Wise men do NOT name garbage for their wives! That should say it all.

Vesper - One of the most successful of LeGrice's "brown roses". Soft, pastel orange, more pinkish toned in cooler weather and one of the more vigorous and healthy of the bunch. Never very tall, easily kept within bounds. Much more easily placed and maintained than several others of this type. One I imported from LeGrice way back in the mid eighties.

White Gene Boerner - See Gene Boerner. All the same, except color.

Kitty,
I can't imagine any other rose being like Pink Rosette.
Thank you so much for sharing it with us.

With any luck, I'll post photos of it growing in Florida sometime down the road.
Gracin

Great info Kim! Happy to see Dairy Maid on your list since it was on my last order...hoping I wasnt too late and its still available. I had cuttings of it last year but none took, so I was happy they were offering it.

Tammy

Kim, thanks for the great information on these roses. I have Vesper and love it. Would love to hear about any other treasures that we might be overlooking. I have a big order coming then added more this week. I dont want to miss out on antying that might not be available again that I might really want.
Judith

I think at least a portion of Vintage's survival problem is encapsulated in the above post by Sherryocala regarding her inability and/or refusal to pay $50+ to purchase a single rose band (priced by Vintage at $16.95) and have it shipped to the eastern U.S. I surely can sympathize.

I've wondered if Vintage assumed they could survive primarily on sales to their fellow Caifornians. I've no idea what the answer is, or what the rationale was, but something was clearly out of whack -- and out of the norm in comparison to other vendors (including other CA-based vendors).

This post was edited by jaxondel on Mon, Mar 11, 13 at 10:30

But, Jax -- It works both ways.

That's exactly why I have only ONCE ordered from any of the wonderful EAST coast rose nurseries. I can't afford to do so.

It's not the fault of the nurseries. It's just the way it is.

As far as other CA-based vendors of Old Roses . . . Those would be . . . ??

Jeri

From Vintage's site:

"We do not charge any handling fees, but customers in states which require agricultural inspections, must pay the $11.00 Agricultural Inspection fee on each order we ship. Those states are currently: AL, AR, AZ, FL, ID, LA, NC, MS, NJ, OR, SC, TN, TX, VA, WV.

Our band sized plants are shipped in boxes which hold multiples of four; four, eight, twelve and sixteen plants. Our shipping prices break at these multiples. Therefore, whenever you order in groups of four plants, you will pay less per plant. One plant costs the same to ship as four; thirteen cost the same as sixteen, etc. For specific shipping costs, consult our chart and table at the bottom of this page."

Ocala, Fla. is zone 8, for four roses, Priority Mail is $23.75. Using straight Priority for four bands to Sherry should run the cost of the roses, plus $11 mandated inspection fee required by the State of Florida, plus $23.75.

Four bands should fit in a medium Flat Rate Priority box which ships for $12.35. That is what's out of whack. Where Burlington and others use only Flat Rate where if it fits, it ships, Vintage is simply using Priority Mail which can result in significantly greater shipping costs due to higher weights, and significantly lower rates for lighter loads. The greater the distance, the higher the Priority rates. Sherry's four bands would have cost $11.40 less postage using Flat Rate.

I take both Flat Rate and regular Priority boxes with me to the post office and check the weight of anything I mail to determine which is the most cost effective. I know Vintage can't due to their higher volume, but I have mailed packages which would have cost over $30 to send regular Priority for $12.35 by using Flat Rate. I have also sent medium regular Priority boxes for less than $7 because what was inside was very light, making Flat Rate much more expensive for the size.

Had Vintage followed suit and used Flat Rate, some would pay more for fewer, lighter plants, but anyone ordering multiples, particularly across the country, should have saved up to a third of the shipping costs. Kim

For the sake of comparison, the total cost to purchase a single rose plant from Rose Petals Nursery AND have it shipped from FL to the west coast is $35.86; the total cost is about the same, perhaps a bit less, to purchase a gallon-size RU rose AND have it shipped from SC to CA.

I order from Vintage routinely, but I have to admit that the ag inspection fee has always been kind of a head-scratcher for me. Are the other CA vendors who supply me with clematis, gesneriads, hoyas, other tropicals and roses breaking a law, or risking being being prohibited from shipping to my state, by NOT adding that fee to every order I place?

Jeri, I'm surprised that YOU seem not to know of any CA-based old rose vendors other than Vintage. I've dealt with a couple in the very recent past, so I feel comfortable recommending these to you: first, there's a place called Burlington Roses in Visalia (roughly the central part of the state); my other recent shipment came from Greenmantle Nursery in Garberville (that's up in Humboldt Co., if memory serves).

For what it's worth, I've just pulled my most recent Greenmantle invoice from its file folder. TOTAL payment to Greenmantle for 4 own-root roses of impressive size: $92. That amount INCLUDES the shipping cost of $20 ($14 for the first, $2 for each additional plant). BTW, each of those 4 roses was custom-rooted for me.

The last time I looked at the RU website there was a three plant limit for mail order. Which is why I never bought from then when I lived in CA.

I think other CA nurseries might spread the ag inspection costs out among all their customers, that is charge the fees to costs of doing business.

There is something a little odd about VG's relationship with USDA. French import roses are being held back becuase of size? The ag inspector should take a look at the puny plants Heirloom routinely sends out.

Sonoma County, where Vintage is, is a regulated county for several pests. Tulare County (Burlington) and Humboldt County (Greenmantle) aren't. Some receiving states require agricultural certification for anything from California. Some require it from quarantine counties within California. I do know Texas A&M is required to have a phytosanitary certificate for any material they mail out as I've dealt with obtaining material from them. Just to have the inspector visit to supply one costs them $100, whether it's for one or one hundred certificates. Rules, regulations and costs can vary greatly by location. If your state requires certification from any source within California, you should get a certificate with the order. If it's only from sources within quarantine areas, Vintage would be required to supply one where Burlington and Greenmantle wouldn't. Jeri can't propagate a rose cutting and take it to the Sacramento Cemetery without an Ag. Dept. inspection as she's in the Brown Apple Moth quarantine area.

Quarantine maps: http://pi.cdfa.ca.gov/pqm/manual/htm/419.htm#LBAM

Pest quarantine lists: http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/plant/pe/interiorexclusion/quarantine.html

http://pi.cdfa.ca.gov/pqm/manual/htm/pqm_index.htm#interior

Out of curiosity, where did you read that the USDA was holding up shipment of the French roses due to size? I haven't been able to find that. I understand how Vintage would resist shipping them out if they feel they're too small, but other than spread of pests or diseases, the ag inspectors don't care. What would make Vintage's relationship with both the USDA and California State Ag Dept different than those with other nurseries is Vintage is under an import quarantine and they are located in a pest/disease quarantine county. That gives them a double whammy with inspections and puts them under a much higher power microscope. Kim

Where are you getting your information regarding the French imports? Hadn't noticed anything on their website and haven't heard anything from them. Sure wish I would, as would like to have 4 total shipped to me, can't find my notes on how many of the imports I ordered.

Kim and ogrose, the info about the French imports came in an email entitled "A delay in your French import rose order" last week. It may have only been sent to those of us "fortunate" enough to have a rose affected by the situation. Importing plants is definitely not for wimps, and kudos to Vintage for even trying!

Here is what Gregg said:

"Dear French Import Rose Customer,
On February 12th, 2013, the USDA inspectors arrived for what we expected to be a final inspection and release from quarantine of roses we had imported from France in 2011. The inspectors were concerned about a number of losses and poor growth among the Tea and China roses we received from Roseraie du Desert. These were small own-root plants which have been very slow to grow. By the end of 2012 a number of these roses had died. (Customers who ordered from among the plants that we have lost are being emailed separately.) The USDA inspectors have required one more inspection of our quarantined block of French roses to be scheduled for August of this year.
We are very sorry, therefore, to have to tell you that the import roses that are now set aside for you and will be confirmed in March, CANNOT be shipped UNTIL the Fall of this year, after our final inspection of the quarantined plants.
We have been told by the USDA inspectors that they could find NO EVIDENCE OF PATHOGENS that would prevent the roses from being released. Their desire is to confirm that the plants that have not grown well show new growth and increased vigor this season."

Thank you catspa! Actually, that makes perfect sense. Import quarantine used to be for a set period of two years, two inspections per year, no matter what. More recent regulations permit inspectors to put the material through two inspections per year and release them for distribution after one year if all appears fine with them. Should there be questions about the material, they can hold them the full two years (or longer) until they are satisfied there are no issues with the plants.

It sounds to me as if it's another double whammy. Nothing thicker than 10 mm (.39"), INCLUDING the bud union, can be brought into the US from over seas. That is a very wispy, thin, immature plant. We all know how resistant small, own root Teas and Chinas (and those which perform as they do) can be to getting growing vigorously. I'm not surprised they had losses with that kind of material and knowing the issues in propagating in their climate.

The USDA zone map shows both Sebastopol and Visalia as being the same zone, but they are two, vastly different environments as far as propagation and growing many plants are involved. From the Sperling's Best Places to Live site, http://www.bestplaces.net/climate/city/california/visalia

Visalia has higher temps, fewer foggy days, more sunny days and those are all skewed to improve own root rose production. Put cuttings in a sunny green house with high heat (100+ F), high humidity and mist and they grow like weeds. High heat suppresses fungi, bacteria and viral issues. Keep the humidity and actual water high under those conditions and cuttings root quickly and grow vigorously. Sequoia made great use of those conditions and pumped out rooted cuttings of many plant types very quickly. Vintage does the best they can with the climate they have, but it is far from ideal for rooting roses, particularly types which are slow to root and produce weaker, slower to mature plants. Cooler, damper, foggier conditions provide significantly greater support for bacterial and fungal infections. High heat really knocks those issues down. I spent many visits, over many years, melting in 120 F, 100% humidity, wandering greenhouses at Sequoia! Mr. Moore, and the roses, loved it.

It appears it's the "failure to thrive" issue which concerns the inspectors. While they seem to not have found any pests or diseases, they are paying attention to the initial plant losses and the cuttings' resistance to perform. That COULD be due to the inherent vigor of the roses; the unsuitability of the material size to being safely transported through the process: the less suitable climate under which they are being held, grown and propagated; or the method of propagation. Greater success with weaker or slower to root types is to be had from budding on suitable stocks, and that is not Vintage's method. OR it could be due to a still unknown pathogen they may be infected with. Once they are comfortable the latter isn't the case, they will release them for sale. Kim

Climate Sebastopol, CA
Rainfall (in.) 41.6
Snowfall (in.) 0
Precipitation Days 77
Sunny Days 261
Avg. July High 83
Avg. Jan. Low 35.7
Comfort Index (higher=better) 46
UV Index 4.9
Elevation ft. 175

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sebastopol, CA, gets 42 inches of rain per year. The US average is 37. Snowfall is 0 inches. The average US city gets 25 inches of snow per year. The number of days with any measurable precipitation is 77.

On average, there are 261 sunny days per year in Sebastopol, CA. The July high is around 83 degrees. The January low is 36. Our comfort index, which is based on humidity during the hot months, is a 46 out of 100, where higher is more comfortable. The US average on the comfort index is 44.

Climate Visalia, CA United States
Rainfall (in.) 10.2
Snowfall (in.) 0
Precipitation Days 40
Sunny Days 275
Avg. July High 97
Avg. Jan. Low 37.2
Comfort Index (higher=better) 54
UV Index 5.7
Elevation ft. 299

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Visalia, CA, gets 10 inches of rain per year. The US average is 37. Snowfall is 0 inches. The average US city gets 25 inches of snow per year. The number of days with any measurable precipitation is 40.

On average, there are 275 sunny days per year in Visalia, CA. The July high is around 97 degrees. The January low is 37. Our comfort index, which is based on humidity during the hot months, is a 54 out of 100, where higher is more comfortable. The US average on the comfort index is 44.

Nastarana,

Roses Unlimited has always been willing to ship fewer than three roses, but they charge an additional fee for doing do.

Last spring I sent a gift of one Tea to a friend in RU's zone 3. With the rose, the $5.00 handling fee applied to all orders, regular shipping, and the shipping surcharge for ordering only one plant, my total was just under $30.00.

Kim mentioned Pink Parfait. Mine is always blooming. The just opening buds are so beautiful! The flowers do open fast and some people don't like that. I break them off and wait for the next group. The rose repeats so fast that there isn't long to wait. You can actually see it blooming just behind my row of Pink Rosette- it's the tall pink at the end. Vintage has a VID version. Hope I get one.

In some ways, its a petite version of Tiffany in clusters. Here they are more opened up showing the yellow.

I really am heartsick over this. I'm losing all of my OGRs in a move and now many will be irreplaceable.

There are no ways to take them with you in the move? Might you make arrangements with others who grow them for cuttings or plants after the move? Might it be a good time to learn to propagate or make arrangements with other forum members to propagate them for you? I would volunteer to help, but my only sure fire method of propagation is closing for the season. It's getting warm enough out there to inhibit rooting and this material is already pushed too far for wrapping. Plus, I'm maxed out on room until what's already there is gone. Kim

Thank you, Kim. If I had had a few more months, I could've rooted them myself. But the cold time of year, and my move to temp quarters without garden space, means the roses will be lost forever--probably to a bulldozer for a pool. I had hoped to replace most of them in the future. I have many hundreds--too many to count. Most are OGRs, and many are obscure Vintage selections. The end of an era, indeed. I am so sad.

Received my confirmation from Vintage today. I know a lot of you were worried about whether orders were getting through. I placed my online order on the 5th so that gives everyone an idea of turnaround. I ordered four with two alternates and got three of my first picks and one alternate.

Still, Kim is right. As we lose nurseries, we must try to shift for ourselves -- help each other.

Jeri

Yes, and we certainly must attempt to remain cognizant of the nurseries right in own back yards (so to speak) that struggle to continue to supply ogrs.

Their catalog is an excellent reference book on vintage roses as well.

Thank you. My order was from Hook and Ducher, so maybe I lucked out as have not heard from Vintage. Golly, computer crashed back then, don't have the records, hope they received my order!! Can't remember...

(ZONE 8 a Joshua TX) OK enablers.......but enablers for a good cause nevertheless. I have just purchased from Vintage:

GENE BOERNER (PINK) X 2
PINK CHIFFON X1
MADAME B.R. CANT (NOT RARE I KNOW BUT A LONG DESIRED ONE)
Thanks for the suggestions from all of you experienced rose lovers above. I hope this has helped them in some way. Will post on facebook so other rose lovers can help them to clear their stock.

After they confirm orders for the pre-ordered european import roses this month, will they be offering the spare import roses for sale this month or next month? There were some that were not sold out two years ago when they were offered that I would really like to purchase from them. I think there was something about not sending emails regarding the imports to be shipped this year so I am asking to see if anyone knows on this forum.