Growth habit re: Archduke Charles, Louise Phillipe, Cramoisi Sup

15 years ago

I moved some roses and now I want a smaller rose to put into a space recently vacated. The choices so far are Cramoisi Superieur, Louise Phillip, and Archduke Charles.

Of these, it seems that people report Cramoisi Superieur growing the largest? Is that correct?

My main concerns besides size are thorniness and disease resistance. I'm not going to spray it, so I want something that won't defoliate. And I also want something that I can walk by without getting snagged. Actually, I also want something that doesn't duplicate too many other roses that I have already. So my interest in Cramoisi Superieur was based on that, plus the fact that I don't have any Chinas.

But it seems relatively similar to Mons Tillier - kind of a dark pink multi petal bloom on a plant that can get pretty large. Is that correct? Because it's going next to it and if it is that big, I need something smaller.

Any thoughts on Archduke Charles or Louise Phillipe?

Unfortunately, I can't go out and look at a specimen around here or I would, rather than ask. But if anyone is in a similar climate, esp east coast, I'd appreciate any notes.

Featured Answer

sandy808

15 years ago

I was just imagining a whole hedge of Archduke and Ducher. How gorgeous that would be.

If you need something to blend with Mons. Tillier, I would pick a peachy pink tea rose to plant near him. I'm not sure which ones would have a growth habit that would blend with him, but I don't feel they need to match exact anyway. Maybe something like Georgetown Tea, or perhaps a warm yellow toned rose such as Safrano. Otherwise, a white rose would give the needed seperation.

I once had a cool pink rose next to Archduke Joseph, which is a tea most people feel is Mons. Tillier. The effect was not pleasing to the eye. It was rather jarring, and I'm not very fussy about colors.

Again, I don't know if any of my suggestions would blend enough for your satisfaction in terms of growth habit. Mine aren't large enough yet for me to judge, but perhaps someone else would be able to chime in.

Even so, you MUST grow at least one Archduke Charles, somewhere!

Sandy

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Comments (24)

rjlinva
15 years ago
Although I grow each of these roses, mine are still too young to make any comments..I'll be following this thread though. I can say that I don't feel Cramoisi Superieur and Monsieur Tillier are very similar in flower. I think CS is similar to Louis Phillipe, however.

I know this was absolutely no help, but my fingers needed a little exercise.

Robert
jardineratx
15 years ago
I have all 3 of these roses and, for me, CS is definitely the largest with Louis Phillipe being a somewhat smaller bush. As a matter of fact, one of my CS is from a cutting of one grown in our church garden and that rose is easily 8x8. The growth and blooms of these 2 roses are very similar and can easily be mistaken for one another. My Archduke Charles is more upright with larger blooms that change bloom color depending on the age of the bloom, the temps, even rainfall. This variation in bloom color is really attractive in my opinion. No, CS and Monsieur Tillier do not have similar flowers in color or bloom type.
Hope this input helps
Molly
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gnabonnand
15 years ago
Would you consider a white rose?
'Ducher' is smaller than the roses you mentioned, and it has very few thorns.
I've seen it often growing around this area, and it's always healthy here. But, as with all roses, disease resistance depends upon your local climate & soil.

Randy
sherryocala
15 years ago
CS is 8x8? Oh, gosh, he really won't work where I have him. Where can he possibly go? I was hoping he'd be happy at 5x4. Probably not. Maybe I have spot. Poor thing. He was just settling in.

I have a baby Archduke Charles in a really big pot and Louis is in his 3rd spring, so they're too young to judge. LP seems to want to be wider than tall - all of a sudden.

Sherry
jardineratx
15 years ago
Sherry, don't panic yet on CS.....we have a long growing season here (southeast Texas) and I think they don't prune this rose at the church. Mine is currently about 5x5 and since it is relatively young, I have not cut it back, but I hope to keep it from getting to that 8 footer size.

molly
duchesse_nalabama
15 years ago
I went to Petals of the Past recently and saw a list of roses Jason Powell recommended as a hedge kept at 2' and another list of hedge roses to be kept at 5' - Cramoisi was on both. He told me it could be kept at 2', but when I look at my gawky CS I don't see how it could be a 2' rose.

I've wondered if there isn't more than one CS around. Here's a link to Vintage's china page; they list CS as type 2, the same as Ducher. Mine isn't anything like Ducher in shape.

I agree with Molly, CS and Mons T blooms are not similar at all, but they are both lovely.

Here is a link that might be useful: Vintage, china list
jerijen
15 years ago
A picture is worth a thousand words. Here are Archduke Charles, Mons. Tillier, and at least a bloom of Louis Phillipe.

{{gwi:239133}}

Jeri
rosesinny
Original Author
15 years ago
gnabonnand - I would consider a white rose. And so I already have Ducher. That's over by Smith's Parish, which is a really interesting rose for me. Ducher took a big hit this past winter, but it's got a few nice green canes and I think it will be fine. Stays somewhat small and that would be great if I could find something like that.

Mons Tillier is huge and I don't want something as big because it grows into the neighbor's stairway. I love it, but I want something smaller next to it because the space isn't big enough for two roses of that size. It's sounding like Archduke Charles is the way to go.

How about thorns or disease? It is acceptable?

And thanks for all the responses so far.
jerijen
15 years ago
You are in Zone 7.
I'm not altogether sure that any of the roses in question would be as large for you as they are in milder climates.

Jeri
newtie
15 years ago
If there is any difference between CS and LP i'd like to know what it is. It seems the two have been confused with each other in commerce. Will the real CS please stand up. Both are great roses (or should that be singular?) Both will become large shrubs if left alone in my 8b zone.
albinnibla
15 years ago
Perhaps the rose you need for that space is Bengale Centefeuilles. He should stay relatively small as you might like. His blooms "suntan" just like ADC, He is deliciously fragrant (to Me!), and is one Historic Rose!
Here is the picture on Ashdown's site that won me over.
{{gwi:239135}}
albin
rosesinny
Original Author
15 years ago
"You are in Zone 7.
I'm not altogether sure that any of the roses in question would be as large for you as they are in milder climates."

Ah but Jeri -

Some of your friends out this way told me I wouldn't have much luck w teas and such. And several years ago HollySprings posted something about Mons Tillier getting up to eight feet. Thinking like you, I figured at best I'd have a nice little shrub so I planted it by the fence.

But there are zone 7s and then there are zone 7s. The skeptics were wrong. These days Mons Tillier is well over eight feet tall. I just hacked it back mercilessly last week. And all the other "tender" roses seem to do pretty well for me. At least I haven't seen any as large in any of the local botanical gardens.

I think it's because of the configuration of the buildings right here. The little garden is protected from cold winds so it may be a few degrees warmer or safer than just a few blocks away. At any rate, Isabella Sprunt is a good seven feet, Mrs Dudley Cross likewise, and I don't count on the roses staying as small as I'd like them to any more. It's not sunny CA, but somehow it seems congenial to the roses.

Albin - nice rose. I don't know it at all. And I like the stripes. That's what first got me interested in roses anyhow.
jerijen
15 years ago
Well, no one can guess at micro-climate.
Some things, you really just have to try it, and see for yourself.
All anyone here can do is give you "averages."

Jeri
sammy zone 7 Tulsa
15 years ago
Monsieur Tillier and Cramoisi Superieur are beside each other in my garden, and are about 7 feet. I agree with everything that jardineratx said.

Archduke Charles is small for me, but the most beautiful of roses. I don't think you should hesitate to get it unless you can toloerate no blackspot. Mine does get black spot, but does not lose leaves until new ones are ready to come.

LP is smaller in my garden - smaller than CS, but it could be the location.

Sammy
kaye
15 years ago
I grow all three of them, and Archduke Charles is the one that grows more upright and can be maintained more easily to fit a space..JMHO. Oh, and did I mention he smells like cherry candy??
catsrose
15 years ago
I grow all three but AC and CS are still young. I bought Louis Phillipe for a small spot. Within two years, I had to move him. He is now going into his 5th summer and no sign of slowing down. He's easily 6x6 with some long reaching canes promising bigger and bigger. Comtesss du Cayla is a small china with whom I'm very happy.
Lisa_H OK
15 years ago
Jeri, thanks for the pics. I can see I need to move Mons. Tillier immediately. He's been lulling me into believing he'd be small, he's so itty bitty right now and has been for a couple of years.

Lisa
jerijen
15 years ago
Lisa, In our experience, Mons. Tillier was typically Tea, in that he stayed small for a long time.

We used to prune this rose, having been taught that it was a "must," but after a few years, the plant was a mess, and we thought we'd lose it.

In desperation, we decided that the best chance it had for life was for us to ignore it, and so we did.
Within 3 years, it was a large, robust plant.
It blooms pretty much 'year 'round here, and has no disease problems.
I am a big fan of Mons. Tillier (of commerce). I'd hate to be without it.

Jeri
rosesinny
Original Author
15 years ago
I agree. It's truly a beautiful, almost care-free rose. It's exactly what you want in a large rose. The only one I like more in my garden is Crepuscule. I was just surprised at how big it got. But if CS is likely to get as big, I'm going to have to pass on it. I just gave away Pleasantrie - it was supposed to be a nice large shrub but with fifteen foot canes, I considered it a climber that was way too big for its allotted space.

Eight years ago I would never have guessed that a few degrees and a little bit of protection would have such profound effects. So I'm thinking that Archduke Charles is going to be my choice. I did have General Schnablikine for a few years, but it seemed like a slightly smaller version of Mons Tillier that bloomed less frequently. Unless I can find Bengale Centefeuilles, it's going to be Archduke Charles, which has tempted me for years anyway.
jerijen
15 years ago
FWIW, Crepuscule grows as a climber in California.
Well, it grows like that everywhere but where I live -- here, it WON'T GROW AT ALL.
I love that rose, but it doesn't love me.

Jeri
sandy808
15 years ago
You can't go wrong with Archduke Charles. Of the three that you mentioned, he would be my first choice. It's a very beautiful china, and will stay smaller, although he can take some pruning. Mine does not get disease, and I do not spray. Louis and Cramoisi are larger growing shrubs.

However, I probably wouldn't put Archduke, Louis, or Cramoisi right next to Mons. Tillier. Even though I don't feel any of the old roses "clash", Mons. Tillier has blooms that are warm toned, while the chinas mentioned here are all cooler tones. I would probably put a white rose as a buffer between them, if you have the room. I agree that Ducher is a good choice.

Sandy
patricianat
15 years ago
I agree with Sandy808 about Archduke Charles. Ducher is also a great choice in fact, if you use CS and Monsiuer T close to each other, you could break up the color with Ducher. Or just do a whole hedge of AC and Ducher interspersed, planted in 3's.
jerijen
15 years ago
I also agree with Sandy -- Mons Tillier wouldn't be good, near those strong lacquer reds.

Jeri

Growth habit re: Archduke Charles, Louise Phillipe, Cramoisi Sup

sandy808

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