Hi Gean, I would supplement your organics with an inorganic source of nitrogen, at least. Even here where it gets HOT (nineties plus) for a good while during summer, I mix organic and inorganic sources of all three major nutrients. No, it doesn't over feed. No, it doesn't result in sappy plants with greater disease susceptibility. No, I have no issues about salt build up nor odd coloring, etc of the plants/flowers.

For a standard garden, borders, pots, etc., I'll use a 20# sack of Grow Power Plus and a 16# sack of Grow More Organics, doesn't really matter whether it's the All Purpose or Rose/Flower as there is so little difference percentage wise of nutrients. The plants get an immediate shot of nutrients as do the soil bacteria so they begin cooking the organics to release what I want from them ASAP. As the inorganic starts to leach out, the organics start to release and since they are both very similar in percentages, there is no huge spike of sappy growth, no huge infusion of aphids and other sucking insects, no huge burst of cholortic foliage and vegetatitve centers. Just a healthy, productive collection of roses and other companion plantings which frequently require little more than dead heading, watering and an occasional cut back to keep them in bounds. Yes, why wouldn't you supplement the organics with some well chosen inorganics? Kim

Gean, what do your fellow PNWers do regarding the organic vs. inorganic, early-in-the-year stuff? I'm not doing anything yet here, although my roses are starting growth - I'm afraid of a February Frost. We haven't had a very cold winter here (so far), and with the sunshine today it's easy to feel that Spring is here, but I know it's not. Are some of the roses that you are talking about the Teas you are hoping to grow? I really hope they will flourish, as I know you love them! We're still pruning things in the Cemetery Rose Garden here in Sacto, also stripping leaves from some of the HPs (rust), but I don't know what the schedule is for manure and mulch - I've missed a few days and some meetings, so they may have already done that. In any case, Sacramento is not the PNW. Sorry not to be more help. Hello to Betty - hope she thrives!
Laura

hi, Kim,
Thanks for your comments. I found the website for the fertilizer Grow Power Plus and read the ingredients. It's 5-3-1 plus 85% humus/humates and some micronutrients and bacteria and that it's geared for high salt, clay/hard pan soils. I don't need the humus or the bacteria, I don't think, as my garden has soil that's pretty high in organics just going into the spring.

I get the idea, though, behind what you're using.

But I'm curious, if you don't mind my asking, why do you use a 5-3-1 ammonium/urea product?

One of my questions is how high the N should be to help tide me over until the organics do kick in. I can understand in a warmer climate that the organics would kick in fairly quickly. But around here, air temps don't seem to even reach 70 until early to mid July, if last year is any way to judge.

But growth has started already. I'm not planning to fertilize for quite awhile yet, but if the main flush isn't until July and soil temps don't reach that until then, wouldn't I need a higher N product than a 5?

And how do I actually figure out what level of N I need? Or does it really matter?

Gean

Laura, Thanks so much for the well wishes for Betty! She made it through the winter, so far, anyway, and has a little bit of growth showing. I am hoping this year she will grow well.

I've found nothing but disagreement among the rosarians in the local rose group about fertilizing. There is a split between the organic only and the Miracle Gro only folks, so you get different answers.

My roses grow out prematurely every year and freeze back. I wouldn't fertilize until six weeks before bloom is expected. I do sometimes use a scant TBS of generic lawn fertilizer (33%) or

harborrose,

many of my roses are leafing out, too, the stupid things. You can almost count on a good freeze later to knock them back, bah humbug. Of course, the gallicas, albas, etc., are happy as clams regardless.

My roses are planted in glacial till, overall a lot of minerals but generally low in nitrogen. They get some alfalfa pellets in the spring, some compost if I get around to it--that's it--and do pretty well. Like you say, other people will have other approaches. My approach is that there are gorgeous roses that do well here with minimal care, so those are the ones I want to grow. Others get the shovel.

BUT--something to consider--our soil doesn't percolate well, and there is a lot of runoff into our waterways and the Puget Sound, which are being overwhelmed with nitrogen from overuse of fertilizer.

If you really want to use additional nitrogen, you could do a study this year to see what works best for YOUR yard--give some of your roses a little extra, others give a minimal treatment, and see how they differ. That way the hardest part of deciding what to do is remembering which ones got which treatment! ;-)

Thanks for the thoughts, Michael. I'm thinking about using either fish or blood meal. I read that the synthetics increase acidity and my soil is already pretty acid. rhodos love it here.

Lucretia, do you have to use a pick to dig through your glacial till? The areas where I might plant where there aren't existing raised beds are sheer torture to dig through. I really do want to add some additional nitrogen, though. I think I will try to use some organics instead of the synthetic. The season is so short I'm trying to figure out how to make the most of it.

Thanks for responding, all.

Excess nitrogen in any form, including from organic sources, increases acidity slightly. Nitrogen evolves from protein to urea to nitrate, and when unused nitrate washes out of the topsoil, it takes some of the base/alkaline stuff with it. This will be true whether the sequence starts with protein, urea, ammonium, nitrite, or nitrate, and whether natural or synthetic. It all comes to the same end product. That's why I use manufactured fertilizer if I want fast nitrogen. I use organic sources (compost, manure, or vegetable meals) for slow nitrogen release.

hi, Michael, thanks again for commenting. The increased acidity comment came from the Olympia Rose Society website in an article on fertilizing. They really discourage synthetics. I guess there is so little clay in the soils here for excess nitrogen to grab on to it washes into groundwater pretty quickly.

In the amounts you use, I don't think there would be much if any excess, but probably just enough to jump start the plant.

One good thing about using an organic source is that as it decays it will improve the soil as well.

Thanks for commenting about animals being attracted to the fish or blood meal. I don't even feed the birds because of the bears around here; I sure don't want any more rodents than I already have!

Lucretia, I feel your pain. I tried to pick some of it last summer and almost broke the pick and landed on my rear end. I came up with the same solution you have; I'm piling up shredded leaves, etc. on the stuff. I'm glad to know it helps.

You're right about those blackberries too; this whole place is crawling with them. Yikes!

It has been awhile since I looked in here but I do have two cents about this. I used to take soil temps and with such weak sun our soils do wake up really late. Since there is nothing natural about beds of roses and flowers I figure we need to supplement if we want decent flowers before August. While the backbone of my soil amendments is composted horse manure(I have an excellent source with no weed seeds) and alfalfa I do supplement with a slow release 16-16-16 that I use at half the recomendation so it would be 8-8-8. I have used feather meal in the past and liked that but the cost was really high. I do this in April or May depending on the weather. I will do an extra application on the repeaters in midsummer. If I have extra around I will toss a little out on the Gallicas when they are refoliating in mid summer so the bushes look nicer but they dont really need anything but the manure. Anything that has to break down to be used is going to be fairly useless until late Spring...not a problem for the once bloomers but I like Bourbons. I get my granular from the feed store. I used to just use Ammonium Nitrate because it was easy and cheap, it got hard to get and with all our rain you do have to apply frequently-I am old.

Gean, good question. Our soil will heat up much before yours, but I was thinking about feeding this weekend so that as soon as the soil is warm enough and/or the roses start sprouting, they'll have the food they need. Everything Michael said was very good to know, especially that organic fertilizers contain blood meal or chicken manure for quick release and that he uses a little lawn fertilizer sometimes.

I recently bought ammonium sulfate. I need the drop in pH that the sulfate would give (though I just applied sulfur to the whole garden, resigned to the fact that I will probably be applying sulfur semi-annually). I'm wondering if anyone ((Michael?) knows how much to apply and if/when it should be applied if my normal feeding is organic rose food, alfalfa & milorganite in spring and then one or the other monthly. The 'Purely Organic' seemed to have noticeably better results last year than the other things, but then it contains SulPoMag. I have blood meal but have never used it due to its supposed attractiveness to animals.

I can also attest to rain making it easier to dig in cement-like ground. What a difference it makes!

Sherry

Hi Gene;
I transplanted to WA some 11 years ago. First thing I've noticed, when we have an ElNino year..hang onto your hat. Last summer was an ElNino year. So is this winter. Best I can tell it translates into chilli summers and warm wet winters. We had an early snowfall with temps of about 12 degrees, but that has been it. Not last summer but the one before we donated more than 9 bushel baskets of tomatoes to the local homeless shelter. That's how hot it was. We also canned spaghetti sauce and dried oodles of tomatoes. But that was an exceptionally hot summer.
That being said, here is what has worked for me.
The local master gardener association has been immensly helpful. They put me intouch with the folks who test your dirt. You should do this in your area. Anyhoo...because of the extensive rains, salts are never an issue. We have glacial rock as do many people. Drainage thank goodness is wonderful.
I visited a wonderful Rose Garden in Portland, OR. The garden overlooks the city. Amazing place. I took the tour there, the gardener explained that they use Ammonium Nitrate in April. For the remainder of the season they use Zoo Doo. No Zoo Doo here so we use horse manure from the barn. Late July I do a manure tea.
Following his advice I located Amonium Nitrate at Fred Meyers. It's cheap and no additives. Lucrettia is so correct that excess fertilizer from over using nitrogen products is having an extremely negative impact on Puget sound. We neither water nor fertilize the grass. We are located less that a 1/4 mile from the sound so we follow the above to help. The roses are happy and dont seem to notice the neglect.
Hope we have a Non-ElNino summer.
Jeannie

Sampling and testing of soil is also used to monitor fertilizer use, not just to get started on a fertilization program.

Sherry and others, ammonium sulfate is the manufactured fertilizer that does increase acidity more than other nitrogen sources. It is 21% nitrogen, so you could apply 1 oz (2 TB) per plant (6-9 sq. ft.). This could be repeated every 4-6 weeks if you are not applying other nitrogen sources.

I have to say that I have NEVER felt any need to add additional nitrogen to plants growing in soil in the open. Unless you are living and gardening in some extreme conditions, there has always been sufficient nitrogen without any need for additions, regardless whether they are organic or inorganic. Trace elements, potassium and phosphorous are a different ball game though and I hasten to add that soil and atmospheric conditions in the UK may be very different from other regions. I do like to grow my plants hard though.

Thanks so much, everyone. I think that there is a need in my soil to add a fast acting nitrogen, or at least I plan to add some this first year to find out how the plants respond, esp if the spring is very cool and wet, which I figure it will be.

The question is what. Paul Barden's website has a helpful list of organic nitrogen amendments, which is how I came to think about blood or fish meal. But I don't want any more rodents, so thanks, Michael.

Chicken manure is a possibility; it is readily available and fairly cheap. I used it a little last year and didn't like the results, but having read a little more about it the last day or two I realize why. I used it on acid loving plants and I used too much of it. It has an alkalinizing effect. It may be good for roses. I will probably try some and see.

I don't think there is any problem with using synthetics, especially in the amounts Michael recommends per rose. I'm on a well, so don't want anything leaching into my ground water or the Sound, which is also only a scant 1/4 mile from here.

My question really then is how much N to use. Kim uses 5-3-1, but his soils are warm. Patricia uses a 16-16-16 but cuts it in half. The ammonium nitrate that Jeannie and the Portland Zoo uses is 33-0-0, of which Michael uses a scant TB or a 1/4 cup of 10-10-10. I've read that some people use 46-0-0, which is straight urea. If I bought that I'd use a teaspoon, probably. Tomato fertilizer and Miracle Gro are also recommended by some.

It's entirely possible that forcing the growth early in the season will attract more aphids. I could just wait to see if the roses actually need the N, but I'm wasting time when I do that. The whole point is to maximize the season, of which there is very little.

I think it probably just doesn't matter that much what I use to kick start. I'd like to use the "perfect" thing but I don't know what that is. Lucretia's right, I just need to experiment to see what works to my satisfaction.

I think any of the above-mentioned will do the job, inasmuch as roses are just a type of woody shrub and need food for maximum bloom. I have always just tried to feed the soil and let the slow release N in the organic amendments feed the plants. but again that's the south. Also in the south I needed to feed the soil and keep it built up because the constant heat and rain really ate up the organics in it. Here, the organics don't melt away the way they do in the south, so building up the soil isn't that big of a deal, especially in my situation which is raised beds. My entire yard is a raised bed surrounded by glacial till. Drainage is excellent, for which I am extremely grateful; otherwise I'd be living in a swamp.

Thanks for all the contributions, as they've helped me think this through. When it's time to fertilize I'm going to see what's in the stores and buy something.

I hope you all don't think that this is much ado about nothing; it was just important to me to find an answer and think it through, and I really appreciate the contributions (hi, Sherry!) Maybe next year I'll have your attitude, Suzy.

Thanks, Gean

bboy, how often do you soil test?

Gene, I should have mentioned that I sprinkle approximately, 1 tablespoon around each rose bush mid-April as was recommended by the Oregon rosarian. The $5.99 I spent on the bag of stuff is probably the buy of the century as it will most definitely outlive me.
I've never tried chicken manure as I've never had a source for it. I believe it is a hot manure. Many years ago I did use rabbit manure and it was extremely hot.
What every you do your roses will be lovely.
Jeannie

Gean,
The summer of 2010 is not one to judge the average PNW summer by; it was one of the shortest, coldest, most unpleasant summers here in over 20 years. Normally we enjoy a very long, dry and glorious summer west of the cascades and in the valley. You have every reason to expect the coming summer will be far more enjoyable than last, and the weather far more favorable for the cultivation of roses.

That said, it is probably unwise to add quickly available N to the soil for a few weeks yet, as there is always the possibility of a freeze in the next 8 weeks or so that can kill young shoots. If you push growth with N, that growth will be more vulnerable to damage should we get a cold snap.

Jeannie, you are in good company, as a TB is what Michael recommended also. That's the same stuff that Patriciae used to use too. Same stuff the Oklahoma City bombers used for their explosives. Also used for hog feed. Interesting stuff, huh?

Paul, my last frost date is about April 20, which gives me a lot of time to shop! I don't plan to fertilize until thereabouts. I really do appreciate the warning, though and the tantalizing hope of a warm summer.

Gean- I'm on the other side of the state (so colder, much later spring) but most people wait until closer to budding out to fertilize.

As for me, I have horses, so I just used aged 'horse fertilizer' half and half with our lovely clay soil! LOL It's the only thing that seems to work, or you do end up with dried cement in July. The amended soil is soft and easy to work with...and the roses love it!

So far, everything has grown very well, but not too fast or too big. I've had friends who overfertilize and that can be bad, too. Best of luck with your new gardens! :)

I have been gardening in what I call "glacier slurry" and you call glacier till since '04. The only tool that worked for me was a hand mattack and I dug deep wide holes and perk tested them. My backfill was natural soil and purchased compost because my housepad/gardening area was cut out of a slope. There is probably little plant organic material in the gardening area because of it being cut out of the slope ... except for the decayed mulch material I have applied twice a year over the last several years.

The glacier slurry is porous and drains well, which means that anything I use will end up in our water supply, the Trinity River. Until last year, I tried to get by with organics and time-released fertilizers, but the plants just didn't thrive. They did OK, but I knew something was missing.

Last spring, after the estimated last frost date in April, I applied 1/4 cup of calcium nitrate to the larger roses and less to the smaller roses. I watered well the day before and then watered again the same day I applied the CN. It was enough to kick start the roses and they did a LOT better last season.

Altho' the roses do leaf out earlier than they should, most of that growth is blind growth. I think it's the plant trying to feed itself through photosynthesis. We always get a late frost or snow before the middle of April and that growth generally dies off or gets pruned off.

We have temps in the high 90s or low 100s for weeks at a time during the summer and time released foods are just burned up too quickly to be reliable, so last year, I did a combination of organics and synthetics and all of the plants were healthier than in prior years.

In my experience, it's hard to find the right balance to feed the plants and not pollute our water source.

I think I have planted the last of the roses I am going to plant, except for replacements for roses that don't do well in this climate. I know I don't want to dig any more rose holes in this stuff.

Smiles,
Lyn

hi, Lavender Lass! Roses love clay and horse manure, so I'm sure you have some happy roses. Thanks for the well wishes.

Smiling Lyn, thanks for posting. Your challenges sounds like ours out here and make me think I'm doing the right thing by trying to find a synthetic to start the season off with.

How did you decide how much calcium nitrate to use? I read that it's a 15.5-0-0 with 19% calcium, so that's not extremely high in N. Michael cited 1/4 cup of 10 10 10 just as something to compare it to.

I don't know how to figure out how much I need to use other than just trying it out and seeing what happens.

I'm interested in the calcium nitrate as I've read some threads that talk about calcium as a bloom spray for botrytis. I read calcium also might help the plant fight fungus and is supposed to strengthen cell walls, acc to some old threads I read.

Im looking forward to seeing if using that helps the plants with blackspot too. Have you noticed anything like that?

You're prob right about fertilizer leaching through the till; I guess that's why I'm trying to figure out the best amount to use so as to give the plant what it needs but lessen the leaching factor as much as possible.

Thanks again for posting, Gean

Hi Gean......

Actually, I had read about Cass using calcium nitrate in her garden on another rose group and wrote to her about it and asked how much to use. She warned me that it can pollute water sources and gave me this link:

http://www.canr.msu.edu/vanburen/e-896.htm

I also asked the owners of two vineyards up here what they use in their fields for grapes. One recommended calcium phosphate and the other calcium nitrate.

I prefer to err on the side of caution. Over the years, I have learned that some roses are heavier feeders than others.

I spread the calcium nitrate around the drip line of the rose hole rather than applying it near the crown of the rose because that is where the feeder roots are located.

I think ... and this is not tested ... by applying the CN to soil that is already saturated the day before, there is more opportunity for the plant to take up the nitrogen, but I may be wrong. Another rose friend told me that I was feeding the bacteria that made nutrients available to the plants. But, I also think the fact that the soil is already saturated slows down any perculation through the glacier slurry. Again, this is just my own thought processes and I don't really have any research to back up this claim.

All I know, is that the plants appeared to be healthier in general. They all foliated better and handled the heat stress better. As for disease ... I don't have mildew in my garden and bs spores don't spread once the high temps hit. I only have one rose that is bs prone, but it gets a lot more shade than the other roses.

Smiles,
Lyn

Lyn said: think ... and this is not tested ... by applying the CN to soil that is already saturated the day before, there is more opportunity for the plant to take up the nitrogen, but I may be wrong.

I found the below link on uptake of nutrients by plants. It seems that nitrates, sulfur and calcium "mass flow" to the roots in a water solution, so saturating the soil sounds like a good idea to me. Calcium nitrate is easily water soluble so I think it might work well to dissolve the stuff in water and pour that on as a drench. I might use 1/8 cup per half gallon of water and pour it on. I know in April the soil is going to be saturated here too. If I use that much, I can see how the plants do and can do it again if nothing happens.

Just have to play with it and see, I guess. Thanks for the help, Lyn. Gean

Here is a link that might be useful: nutrient uptake by roots

Here's the link to an older thread on using calcium as a spray. It's very wet here, so I want to try doing this to see if it helps with bloom opening and balling problems this year.

If some of you have done this since the thread date, we could start a new topic for additional comments.

Here is a link that might be useful: old thread on calcium

Thank you very much for doing my research for me !

So far, my gardening style has been to just do it and observe. I try to think of the "why" of things and then move forward with caution. I haven't stopped to research to see if I am doing the right thing.

I have what I call a "trivial mind". Bits and pieces of things that I have read over the years stick. I had read an article several years ago about the relationship of toxins in stream water and rivers for land that was once used for agricultural purposes, then sold and developed for subdivisions. The article said that that the levels of toxins in the streams and rivers increased dramatically with this change in land use. That little bit of information is one of the reasons I have tried to be careful about how I develop this garden. That's why I tried to work with just organics in the first years of gardening here. It wasn't until one day I looked at the slope above the the house pad that the light bulb went off in my head.... there is NO natural organic plant material in this soil. Duh ! This part was buried deep under the slope !

The work I have done has brought the soil to life in that I have plenty of worms and other critters that I never saw in the first years of gardening here. That's because of all of the various kinds of mulching materials I have used over the years. ... but I never took the time to do the research.

That's why I said, "this is not tested". I was just trying to figure things out as I worked to create a garden.

This thread has taught me a lot doing my research first.

Smiles,
Lyn

Lyn if you hadn't mentioned what you did I wouldn't have thought about why the fertilizer instructions always say to water nitrogen in well and go looking for a reason. Your comments really helped me think about it, so I really appreciate your taking time to help me.

It's all about figuring out what works and thanks again for helping inexperienced-me with what works for you. I would love to see your roses and soil someday! Smiles back, Gean