Strawberryhill, the majority of Southern California is alkaline, much to a rather high degree. The Colorado River Project supplies a good deal of our water, which makes it even more alkaline. Those few areas still on wells may have softer water. The original Los Angeles wells were quite soft, which permitted hundreds of specialty growers to produce many tropicals. The shift to Colorado River water with its extreme alkalinity, destroyed that. More mountainous areas may even have neutral to acidic conditions. Most of those roses suggested are grown on Dr. Huey rootstock. It wouldn't so much be the rose itself being suitable, but the rootstock.

Of the first list of sixteen best performing roses, three, perhaps four, would mostly be own root (Tillier, Belle of Portugal, Mrs. B.R. Cant and perhaps Mlle. Cecile Brunner). The rest are most certainly budded mainly on Dr. Huey. It's possible some were brought in from sources which use multiflora, but I would venture to guess they mainly came from local commercial wholesale sources, or purchased bare root from mainline bare root sources (Star, J&P, Week's). The original source of both would be Wasco, CA where Huey is the universal stock. Dr. Huey's ability to handle very alkaline conditions without major chlorosis issues was a prime consideration in its being selected to become the standard stock.

If you're getting the selected roses on Dr. Huey and they and the stock are cold hardy enough for you, the roses you want would probably do OK. If they're coming on multiflora, then you may have issues with chlorosis. If they're own root, it's a crap shoot for suitability. It's often the roots which make the difference. Kim

My own garden (near San Jose) is quite alkaline due to a chalky limestone subsoil. But it is spotty. Not far from me others have neutral or even mildly acid soil.

I have trouble with some roses being chlorotic, mainly rugosas, hybrid mulitflora ramblers, and Reines des Violettes, as well as some of my citrus trees. Most roses are not bothered at all, perhaps because I use a lot of organic material in my garden, and in my opinion that buffers the effects of alkalinity to some extent. Neither of my two Gertrude Jeckyll roses have problems with chlorosis, even though one of them grows in the exact same spot where Reine des Violettes once grew with its yellowed and burnt-edged foliage.

Rosefolly

Hi Kim: Thank you for an excellent explanation - much appreciated. Although I have a love affair with Austins - they look like crap at the rose park, even on Dr. Huey. I suspect Dr. Huey secrets enough acid to neutralize the soil. I'm tempted to order Austins on Dr. Huey from David Austin's in Texas, but there's the virus issue.

Dr. Huey is popular here, but these grafted hybrid teas become one-cane wonder after a harsh winter. At zone 5a rose park nearby with over 1,000 bushes, the most compact and most blooms are mini roses, then Romanticas, floribundas, and Austins last place. Austins look like wild weeds with shooting canes, and very few blooms. I was checking on the soil pH of England - and the map shows mostly acidic, then neutral, but very few alkaline areas.

Strawberry Hill, I just took a look at your link. I think the areas they describe are ALL near Santa Barbara, not for the state of California as a whole. Almost certainly the climate is at least as big a factor on rose performance as soil. With the ocean, valleys and mountains all interfacing so varyingly, you can go a dozen miles in California and have quite different growing conditions. Look at this link to the Sunset zones and you will see what I mean.

Here is a link that might be useful: Sunset zones

It can be quite a bit more dramatic than that implies. At the end of Sunset Blvd. in Pacific Palisades, you can travel fifty degrees F difference in a matter of a few minutes. From extreme humidity to very arid environment. Where the days are often very foggy and cold (60 F) to intense sun with not a cloud in the sky and 105+F in six or seven miles. From virtually sea level to over 1,400 feet in the same distance. I'm sure it is far from unique for this state. Just traveling over the Sepulveda Pass south from the San Fernando Valley to West LA, you can drop 25 degrees or more. Kim

Folly's right. It's really hard to believe the climate variations we have here in California.

Moreover, the climate's changing now.
In my area, we're dryer than we used to be with both higher high-temperatures, and lower low-temperatures.

As to alkalinity, where I am we use only a small % of Colorado River water.
Most of our water comes from local aquifers. It's very alkaline, and also somewhat saline.

Jeri

Thank you, Rosefolly, Jeri, and Kim for additional info. I am enabling my 3 sisters who live in various regions of CA into roses. You would think sunny CA would grow more roses, but that's not the case.

I haven't figure out what rootstock the mini roses from Trader's Joe are budded on. From the mini rose forum, there are reports of their suckering and growing a different plant. My neighbor bought a few minis from Trader's Joe. She planted them into alkaline clay soil without any amendments. She never winterize them either. Her minis have zillion more blooms than my pampered Austins ... I amended them with peat moss, alfalfa meal, gypsum, horse manure, then dusted with corn meal. Then I winterized them with mounds of soil and tons of leaves. Next year I might try giving them lemonade and Neptune fish sauce.

Would it be easier just to grow something else that like my alkaline clay soil better? I'll experiment with own-root floribundas and Romanticas next year - and will report the result.

To take it even further, most people who live near the San Francisco Bay area, often think of themselves as living in northern California because the climate is different than southern California. I live further north in the mountains and our soil and water is more acidic.

Roses grown in southern California soils and climates grow differently up here. I might as well be living in another state. My low temps are much colder, but there are areas further south that also have cold temps.

The major difference is that I have a shorter growing season and my soil and water is not alkaline.

Jeri's right, you cannot define the variations of California climates and soil.

Smiles,
Lyn

Strawberryhill, you honestly can't compare minis, no matter what the source, to Austins. Minis are selected for masses of fast color. Little attention is paid to the quality of the individual bloom, unless it's an exhibition mini, which your neighbor's aren't. Austins aren't "landscape" plants, which her minis are. Your Austins are selected for the perfection of the individual flowers and in the right climate and right year with the right culture, CAN give profuse bloom, but not to the continuous explosion extent minis can if given just the bare minimum. If you want more of what your neighbor receives, you'll probably be much happier with single to semi double floribundas and shrubs instead of the huge flowered, with a bazillian petals, Austins. Kim

Strawberryhill, you have such high alkalinity. If you don't have it already I would recommend the book, "Gardening Success with Difficult Soils: Limestone, Alkaline Clay, and Caliche" by Scott Ogden. Can I guess that you garden along the Mississippi River or the Wisconsin border or in northeastern Illinois? There's a map on the back of this book showing areas of limestone and lime-rich soils in the U.S. The western two-thirds of the north half of peninsular Florida is solid red on the map. That's where my garden is. He has a chapter on Garden Roses, too. He talks about the high nutrient demand of calcareous soil and how to meet it, the preferability of low C/N ratio mulches, green manures, plants that are well adapted to limey soil, and more. I got mine used on Half.com.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Thank you, Lyn, Kim, and Sherry for great info. I re-read the mini-rose forum regarding suckering in Trader Joe's, and someone explained that it's more than one own-roots planted per pot. If mini-roses can be that hardy own-root, I'll stay with own-root.

Hi Kim, you are right about Austin roses not being landscape plants. I checked pics. of the Flower Show that Andrea from England submitted. Austins are wild and weedy there too, and they can never achieve the compact status of mini roses. I already ordered Lauren, and want more of your hardy creations, such as "Indian love call". I like the names that you gave to your roses. I don't like the name "Radio Times" for my rose. It would had been better if David Austin named it "Toaster Time". My kid likes the name "Raisin Time" better.

Thank you, Sherry, for recommending that book - I'll check it out. Yes, I'm in the northeastern part of Illinois, one hour west of Chicago. I'm next to a limestone quarry, my soil tested exceedingly high in magnesium, but barely adequate in calcium.

Also, Strawberryhill -- The list you were looking at was from Santa Barbara Rose Society -- and that's a very very limited window into rose selection for California.

Moreover, even within that one rose society, there are wildly differing conditions. Perhaps moreso than any other Southern California society I know of. (And I am a SBRS member.)

Jeri

If it helps to see what kind of "soil" some of us deal with, here are a few shots I took this morning. This hill is very steep, loose and full of concretions. It's part of the Santa Monica Mountains which separate the beach communities and West LA from the San Fernando Valley. It's all ancient sea floor and is imploding. There are layers of soft, yellow-white-beige shale which are nearly vertical, densely peppered with concretions where the calcium has deposited itself around pipes, roots and anything else which has been in the soil long enough.

Digging a hole is easy as far as getting the shovel into the dirt is concerned. It's quite difficult when preventing the hole from filling itself back in is concerned. Water percolates through it so well there is virtually no standing water even during periods of dense, heavy rain and it can remain sticky-wet for weeks in shadier areas. In full sun, with heat and any aridity, it dries quite quickly. The hill itself is so well drained, the septic tank, which is nearly sixty years old, has only required pumping once since 1975 when the house was purchased.

I've not had any kind of soil analysis done, but I would say it is very alkaline, though only strongly multiflora based roses express their displeasure by showing chlorosis. It supports a very healthy crop of weeds after each rain, and Brazillian and California Peppers and Black Walnuts have volunteered and remained for half a century or longer. Mesquite and mimosa come up like grass and Oleander thrived without any irrigation for over sixty years until Oleander Leaf Scorch took it out. The stumps are still limping along but are closer to their ends than beginnings. Moles and gophers keep things churned up very well. Hibiscus and roses seem to love the exposure and soil, even with its appearance of near sterility. Kim

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That's pretty much what our soil looks like, Kim. I think our hills and your hills are different segments of the same general formation. All ancient seabed. If there ever was any good topsoil, it long ago washed down into the valleys, and out onto the Oxnard Plain.

Through the 18th-Century, this was cattle-ranching country. Walnuts seem not to have succeeded, but The area is so protected, it was all citrus and avocado orchards, from the late 19th through much of the 20th-Century.

The un-touched hillsides grow big swaths of prickly pear cactus, some ceanothus, and other drought-tolerant wildlings.

Jeri

Thanks for those pictures, Kim. The last picture looks like the sublayer of my soil, after digging the top 10" of black dirt out. There are a few walnut trees native to my area. My lime stone soil isn't that bad compared to bagged soils like EarthGro at HomeDepo, where they put boiler ash (full of toxic chemicals)to make it pitch-black. With bagged soil, I have to use alcohol to get the black-stain off my skin.

My native soil hasn't killed any plants yet, but the EarthGro bagged soil already killed one peony. Last year I planted a few "chocolate" cherry tomatoes in my native soil and they were really yummy. This year I planted one "chocolate" cherry tomato in 2 bags of Scott's Premium topsoil with peatmoss. It tasted so bland that no one want to eat that stuff. I tested the pH of Scott's topsoil, it was more alkaline than mine.

pH of bagged soil varies with the region. There's an on-line document of the pH of bagged soils from North Carolina as 5 to 6 range (the East coast is more acidic). I can't get away from alkaline soil around here, no matter what I buy.

just as a little sidenote... my soil is pretty alkaline, and I've attempted about 70 or so roses so far... the only one I've had really bad problems with (when it comes to soil alkalinity) that I'm aware of is Reine des Violettes.

Her leaves turned yellow and all fell off and she didn't grow at ALL.

I put her a pot and she tripled her size within months and now blooms and has lovely green leaves.

also, sherry thanks fo rthe book rec

The only way I could keep Reine des Violettes happy in Newhall, Aimee, was to amend heavily with peat moss and MULCH her with Ironite regularly. That water is heavily alkaline as is the soil. Blue Mist, Baby Faurax, Heinrich Karsch, International Herald Tribune, the purple Lens hybrid multifloras and several other "violet" roses were as badly affected, often to the point of pale chartreuse foliage with nearly white flowers. Cardinal Hume was completely unaffected by it as was Purple Buttons, which led me to use Cardinal Hume for the trunk under my Baby Faurax standard. It's worked like a charm for many years. Kim

Hi Kim: While researching on stuff for alkaline clay, one site stated that Ironite helps plants to utilize iron. I posted that question in the soil forum, and someone answered with an article citing dangerous levels of arsenic and lead in Ironite product.

Since I had good result watering my rhododendrons with used lemon rinds in kitchen water, I checked on what's best to acidify alkaline water. eHow cited sulfuric acid or citric acid. Citric acid is cheaper and safer, it's used in preserving food & vitamin C, and in canning. One pound bag is sold at the health food store for $6.

I'll going to find a good hose attachment so the citric acid is mixed well with water whenever I use the hose in the summer.

Here is a link that might be useful: Ironite: Arsenic and old wastes

Thanks Strawberryhill. The old garden was surrounded over half it's border by native chaparral. This hill touches a State Park and has a lot of other natural/native vegetation. In both, I have to be careful about putting anything "food" related due to MANY rodents, natural and introduced. Between the various rats and mice as well as coyotes (which are also omnivorous) anything edible is going to have them gathering here for miles. It's surprising what a coyote will eat and you know what a rodent will dine one. Kim

That was really funny, Kim - thanks for a good laugh.