I have been working with horses since 1964. My horses range in ages of 2 years old, 5 years old, 15 years old, 20 years old and up to 25 years old. In the past 5 years, hay producers in my area have turned to using poultry litter on their hay field as fertilizer because of costs. The square bale hay looks green and great, but my horses just sniff it and walk away. They waste it. They won't eat it. Each year, I have to return the hay and buy hay that was not produced with poultry litter. Thank goodness, most hay producers are being honest when I ask if they used poultry litter in the production of their hay. Last year, when I took 100 bales home from a hay producer that I had bought from previously that season, my horses would not eat the hay. I called the hay producer. He confirmed that he had distributed poultry litter in the production of that hay. When he looked in his notes and realized that I had requested non-poultry litter fertilized hay from the start, he came to our place and removed the 100 bales of poultry litter fertilized hay and replaced it with hay that did NOT get produced with poultry litter. My horses immediately started eating the hay that did NOT have poultry litter used in the production of it. So, here is my question. Has anyone experienced this problem with their horses? If so, what did you do? This has happened to me with 4 separate hay producers. I cannot find anything on the internet that explains this problem. I understand that it is a fairly new process, but surely, someone is recognizing the problem besides me!!! I got a response: "Be careful feeding this hay to your horses. Chickens spread salmonella. I myself, would never feed my horses this type of hay." Should I be concerned??? I got another response: "Not at all uncommon. A lot of horses don't like hog manure fertilized hay either. Not new at all. A lot of farmers use manure from chickens and hogs when the price of commercial fertilizer get high. In years past it was much more common. Guess what, if that's all they have to eat for a few days, they get over it, and eat it just fine." My reply was: Have you had the experience with horses not eating their hay?...and you continued to only give them that hay AND they started eating it??? If so, what problems did you observe? Any health issues? From my experience, this behavior of not eating their hay is not natural. I have been feeding my groups of horses for 48 years. This issue with my horses not eating the hay given them has only occurred since the poultry litter has been used as fertilizer, which has been in the last 5 years. I understand the farmers' need to keep down costs, but for the end result to be that the product not be used (wasted), that seems to defeat the purpose of growing the hay. I wonder what problems have occurred that have not been registered by some agency....where would one report this anyway? It is just not natural for my horses to refuse hay. This is a BIG problem for me. My experience is that the hay producers really don't want to hear this. Yet, to be honest, they need to know this. Here was the response: "Yes, I've had experience with hay fertilized with chicken, hog, and cattle manure. Sometime they eat it without a problems and other times, a couple of days of it alone, and they eat it just fine. The smell is usually the problem. If they get hungry, they will eat. Chicken is very high in nitrogen and bad about burning if applied to heavy. It should be composted for awhile before applying. The problems associated with e coli, etc, are usually not there if the application doesn't burn up the hay crop. Seldom do they apply any of these close to harvest time, which gives mother nature plenty of time to dispose of e coli, etc. Sun and rain, will do an excellent job of decomposing. It was used a lot around here, more so, a few years back, and never heard of any problems feeding the hay to horses. When the farmers used horses for tilling it was used extensively for horse hay." Does anyone have any advice on Hay fertilized with poultry manure and the possiblitity of Salmonella risk??? Thanks

And you and ruthie are of course both right that we each need to find our own balance. That's one reason I tend to pipe up around here if someone says doing something is "not allowed" or "against the rules" or "unsafe." I repeat, there is NO home canning police, and many variations from the USDA/NHFCP/Food Canada recommendations are NOT so much known to be unsafe as not proven to be 100% risk-free, which is a VERY different thing. Yes, Zabby I know it upsets you when I say such things. ;) But if you recall, it is usually in response to a specific question from someone who has never canned before or for years. A very different situation than when talking with an experienced canner who understands the underlying principles of home food preservation. True, there is no canning police but given the amount of UNsafe canning practices out there and poor quality not to mention very unsafe info available on the web, maybe there should be at least one place where folks can count on to provide exceptionally safe info - perhaps here? That way they get both sides of the issue and can decide for themselves. There is a very real need for stressing safety when it comes to addressing inexperienced home canners - many of whom lurk here and have come to trust us over the years as a source of safe info. Harvest Forum at GW comes up as a recommended source of good info many places on the web and usually pops up first or second when anyone Googles a canning question so it would be irresponsible of us to toss off a quick "oh, sure I do that all the time" answer when it is a clearly questionable area. Of course we can all toss out shortcuts and changes we have discovered to be safe over the years, but it should be done with care as to who may be reading what we say and provide the needed disclaimers too. How many times has there been a post saying something like "I read somewhere on the web that it is safe to..." Hopefully it wasn't here that they read it. ;) Dave

I wanted to think long and hard about a response to this thread... and then I realized I didn't really want to. I think I get to play the offensive one for this round. Before I do the offensive bits, I wanted to agree with Florantah, Plllog and Idrive that I have always considered Bmorepanic to be one of the "ins" and I'm sorry that she doesn't see herself as such. Okay! Time for things that might be offensive: Some of the kitchens here are nicer, better, friendlier, weirder, etc than the others. Some are just plain freaky. It's true! Some people have ugly babies too. Not everyone gets the dreams/abilities/money so you get different results. Those kitchens will often get less results; Our familys always said "If you have nothing nice to say... " but that is a weird road to follow on the internet. So YES it is possible that you posted a kitchen some of us didn't like. It's also true that there is an "in" group here... just like every group youve ever been a part of. Just like high school, just like college, just like work. Some of us are more "in" then the others. AND it will always be that way. That perfect group where all are equal? It doesn't exist. What changes things is that here, on forum, the "in" croud isn't the same people it is in real life. In real life, I am an outsider at/with my clients, and insider with my husband, and outsider with a fantasy football league and an insider with a star trek marathon. YOU TOO can become an insider. TO BECOME IN YOU HAVE TO PARTICIPATE. Just like high school, college and work you have to put it out there. You don't become in by (the desire to quote the velveteen rabit is huge) waiting in the wings. I have been on the forum for over a year and I believe that slowly people are getting to know me and becoming familiar with me. It takes a long time and a lot of committment. Why should YOU be in? Lastly, and firstly, I want to say how amazing it is that a thread that started off about showing gratitude became a thread in which people who have recieved a lot of help from all of us and each other felt the need to anounce thier emminent departure because they don't like us. I'm really just floored by that. It's really a strange thing to do. I liken it to my neighbor who is such a great guy he mowes our little lawn with our big riding mower for free! He's a great guy who is also grumbly, grumpy and a PIA. I wonder what he would do if one day as he was mowing my lawn I wandered up and said, Yep, can't wait to get out of this house and leave all of you jerks behind... I really respect several of the posters who said they were planning on leaving once their own projects were done and I wish them the best luck.

It sounds like your neighbors are jerks, so you don't need to feel bad about doing what you want to your property because it won't affect your relationship w your neighbors. However, if you have pets, I would think hard before poking the bear because stories of pets being hurt in retaliation is all too common in these 'disputes'. I would never risk it because there are other solutions available. If you have no pets to worry about, then I'd do what you want to do. FWIW, I don't think it's weird for someone to realize their view may potentially go away and to start enjoying it more while they still can. Putting chairs outside one's home and facing them to the street is common everywhere and not creepy to most people. It's either done to enjoy views or to even see neighbors with the goal of being social. If facing views towards other properties and views wasn't acceptable, it would mean everyone who isn't ocean front in a beach town shouldn't have seating that faces the ocean because they would be looking through someone's property to view it. I get why you want your privacy though!!! It's really common for even very nice people to be upset about losing their views and and seeing changes to their neighborhood. Change is expected and it's tough luck, but those feelings are understandable.