So you know what will make your soil better and not waste money, I suggest you get a soil test. You can get them done at many university turf/ag schools or you can get a comprhensive one for $20 fron Logan Labs in Ohio, I recommend them as the people on here that can interpret the test seem familiar with Logan reports. You really want to avoid tilling--it can create a number of problems for you.

People get away with tilling for a garden because you expect a garden to be bumpy. The ultimate end result of tilling is a lumpy bumpy surface. That is not what most people with lawns are looking for. Rototilling does not fix soil. Growing things in it and feeding real food is what fixes soil. If you have any bumps or holes now, all you need to do is flatten the bumps and fill the holes.

The $20 Logan test is worth about $100 to get done from another lab. Since it is Logan's routine test, they can do it cheaper. There is a lab here in Texas that does the same thing, but their test is $100 and their report is not as good.

Hey, thanks. I know CSU does a soil test for ~20$ through the ext. office so I will start there. I was thinking of tilling because it might allow me to have a "fresh" start, what with all the weeds and dead grass that is there now. Not because I believe it to be a fix all, I had planned on ammending the soil through compost etc, as well. How would I go about removing the very sad looking grass in order to sow the new grass seed? I have never dealt with a lawn really, I was stationed in HI where I never had to worry about it dying, so, sorry if I sound like and idiot.

So you have two people tell you to get a lab test from Logan Labs, and you decide that the CSU soil test is better, and you are going to use that one? Since you have never dealt with a lawn, I suggest you either take the advice given here, or do a lot of research on your own.

I never said CSU was better, but since I can drop it off at the ext. office instead of mailing it to Ohio I figured it would be easier. Relax, take a deep breath. This is just a lawn forum, its really not that serious.

The problem is that the many labs report the results in different formats. The numbers will mean nothing to you (they didn't to me) and you will need to pay additional money to have a professional interperet the lab results so that you know what ammendments, if any, and in what amounts need to be added. There are a couple of people here willing to do that for you, but they are only confortable with reports from Logan Labs. tiemco is one of them, that is why he is being such a... err--pain.

"Relax, take a deep breath. This is just a lawn forum, its really not that serious."

ZachS: I couldn't have said it any better myself.

"they are only confortable with reports from Logan Labs"

Thats fine, but meybe they need to hop on over to a weed growing forum to help them chill out.

Zach, you are not the first person to write in here with a lawn that looks like garbage. I've been reading here for 10 years and have been a moderator on three other internet lawn forums since 2003. Logan Labs has emerged as the premier soil test lab in the country. It stands head and shoulders above the second best professional lab in Texas. The same test that LL charges $20 for would cost $100 at the Texas lab. These pro labs serve farms and orchards around the world. With their high volume they can cut their prices. Only one of the university tests (U Mass) even offers what the pro labs offer. The university tests give you pH and the soil macro nutrients. The pro labs give you that plus buffered pH, micro nutrients, CEC, the salt components and their ratios. There are a lot more people who write back to say, "I should have gone to Logan Labs the first time," than those who write in to say, "I'm really glad I went with my local county extension service."

Seriously, tilling is a huge mistake. It will not do what you want and it will bring new seeds to the surface to sprout. It will take 3 full years to settle and in the end it will be very bumpy. If you want to freshen your soil, the best thing you can do is cover it in 2 inches of shredded tree (or chipped tree) mulch for a month or two. By covering it with mulch it holds the soil moisture more constant and allows the soil fungi to multiply inn population. The beneficial fungi are what make soil healthy. Bacteria is a secondary player along with protozoa and microarthropods. Earthworms are nice but even they could not survive without healthy fungi. Once you get the mulch down, the improvement happens in a huge hurry. Have you ever seen how fast a bag of bread can turn into a bag of green mold? That's how fast it can happen in the soil. However I would argue that you don't need to do that. You can get the same effect by spraying any clear shampoo on the soil at a rate of 3 ounces per 1,000 square feet. Do that twice separated by 3 weeks and your soil will improve surprisingly well. Kill the weeds by spot spraying with Weed-B-Gone.

The way you remove all the old grass is with a tool called a verticutter, power rake, slit seeder, or any (rented) tool with vertically rotating blades. You can adjust it so it just touches the soil. It will take all the plants out. Rake or blow the old grass away before seeding. Seed directly onto that soil and roll the seed down with a rented roller.

I just redid my lawn with bermuda seed that's filling in nicely and I did not till, I did add ~1" of topsoil though. The areas that didn't get any/much dirt didn't have much germination, so take that for what it's worth!

From my experience, nuking with roundup, waiting three weeks, spreading new topsoil, broadcasting seed with sand, starter fertilizer, and watering the crap out of it did the trick.

Edit: Rolled w/ a rented roller from home depot ($11) after spreading the fertilizer...

Good info samlawn. Even when you rolled the seed, the area with the additional topsoil got better germination. Is that what you said? Did you seed and then add the topsoil or vice versa?

I'm curious because I'm on a crusade to stop people from adding topsoil for no reason. I'm not sure of seeding is a good reason or not.

I forgot to mention I mowed the dead grass at the lowest setting before spreading the topsoil.

In my opinion, after seeing the results I had, adding new topsoil is a good way to avoid the hardest part of the prep-work: soil preparation and leveling. You kill 2 birds with one stone because you cover up the dead grass and fill in low spots at the same time.

The roller I rented wasn't very big/heavy, so its likely the seed that was spread over the areas which didn't receive any new dirt didn't make it to the ground, and got trapped by what I thought would act as a hay type covering (the dead grass).

Here's what I mean, this is after 3 weeks right after the first mow:

Oh, and I definitely spread the seed after the new topsoil, I figured the other way around wasn't worth it because the company that did it drove a dump truck around my yard helping me spread it out. Plus you'd have to make sure the seed didn't get buried to deep! This process worked for me and for Bermuda, not sure how other types of grass would respond.

Here's a shot closer up:

Not trying to hijack your thread here, just adding what I thought would have been helpful info to find on here while I was researching how to restart my weedfield err i mean lawn

Hey Dcall & Samlawn, thanks for the info I do appriciate it, and it is very helpful. I will definately try the shampoo idea. One question though, if I do mulch the yard, can I use straw hay instead of tree shreds/chips (price being my only consideration here) or will the small amount of seeds it might harbor pose a problem (though, Im not opposed to having a wheat feild for a lawn, neighbors might object, haha). Dont worry about the hijack, I can still learn from others conversations, lol. Thanks again guys.

In most towns large enough to have two tree professionals, one of them will have an on-site chipper shredder that blows chipped trees into a truck. And usually that guy will provide the contents of said truck onto your driveway for free so he does not have to pay the tipping fee at the local landfill. Check into that before committing to any one material.

samlawn, the reason I never suggest adding top dressing to seed is because most will bury the seed. Secondarily, Mother Nature does not cover Her seed with topsoil. Now it could be that She is planting prairie grasses and not turf grasses. She is going on percentages. And of course the other big reason is that adding topsoil can change drainage and really cause problems.