Hi there, lutzd79. I really appreciate you asking, and I hope you don't mind if I answer on Monday. I'm trying to garner a few more suppliers but can't make any more calls until then. Welcome to the Lawn Care Forum!

Thanks bestlawn, I look forward to your reply on Monday.

Hi Bestlawn,
I too am from the Scotts boards and would appreciate your expert feedback or thoughts on the following mix after you have the opportunity to review Mr. lutzd's inquiry:

Award - 25%
Everest - 25%
Midnight/Midnight II - 25% (Midnight II is supposed to be better??)
Zinfandel - 25%

Also, do you know of a supplier that would be able to put together a 20-30 pound order of the above mix?

Thanks in Advance
Chris M.

Lutzd79,
I learned to blend bluegrass by genetic diversity, so I tend to stick to that theory. Your selections are all great and I really like each one but based on the theory, it would not be a good idea to blend them together. The reason being Award, Midnight, and Total Eclipse are essentially the same in that they share a common parent in Midnight. What that means for the most part theyll share common traits, characteristics, strengths, and weaknesses to some degree. That would normally be good because you do want to blend for commonalities to achieve uniformity and overall turf quality, but you donÂt want to invite problems either. One weakness all the Midnight types share in common is vulnerability to powdery mildew disease. Not an awful big deal but in this case, youÂd almost never be able to get rid of it, which can be damaging.

Based on NTEP performance ratings in your area and some of your preferences, I would suggest
Diva Compact Type
Award Midnight Type
Bedazzled America Type
If you need Adobe Acrobat Reader to view the pages
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Award is a Midnight type that exhibits some tolerance to shade. Diva and Bedazzled both will protect the stand from powdery mildew in shade conditions. Neither of those perform really well in shade, but tell me if it is not safe to assume the lawn near the house does receive 4-6 hours of sunlight each day. Ordinarily, every lawn is shaded by the house during some portions of the day. I'm sure you'll love this blend.

I still have the problem of telling where you can purchase these. Neither Award nor Bedazzled are difficult to find, but the problem is purchasing all three from the same location. I usually try to minimize that if I can to save on having to pay additional shipping costs. I'll let you know for sure tomorrow.

Chris, I'm very excited about Everest and would love to see it in someone's lawn. Unfortunately, it performs rather poorly at both New Jersey turf quality testing locations. Adding to your blend is up to you, but I wouldn't feel right in suggesting it. Also, it looks like youÂve run into the same problem as Lutzd79 in terms of genetic diversity.

This blend has become a classic here on the forum and is really great.
Midnight II Midnight Type
Moonlight Compact Type
Bedazzled America Type

All three can be purchased from Pawnee Buttes Seed. Tell them you want sod quality seeds.
pawneebuttesseed.com
800-782-5947

Hi Bestlawn,
Thank you for taking the time to provide me with your feedback.

Is there a resource to identify "heredity" relationships of different cultivar's to minimize the diversity issue?

Chris

Thank you so much Bestlawn, I really appreciate your help. Yes, you were correct to assume that the shade gets at least 4-6 hours of sunlight per day. I am glad that you suggested Award and Bedazzled as they were my top two choices and I was very open to suggestions with the third variety. Thanks again for your help and research and I look forward to hearing from you tomorrow. If I can't get all three from one place that is okay, I don't mind purchasing from different sources as long as I can get sod quality seed. Thanks

Now I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but when a cultivar performs extremely well over time at a lot of locations, but bombs in NJ, that cultivar was not developed at Rutgers. I can think of a few examples of this. By the way, I didn't come up with this explanation by myself. There are those in the turfgrass science realm that feel the same way.

At any rate, the blend Bestlawn suggested is really safe, and really good. I wouldn't hesitate to use either Bedazzled or Moonlight alone, nor would I hestitate to use Midnight II as a monostand in full sun.

A.J.

Compact Type
Able 1, Alpine, Bewitched, Blackberry, Blacksburg, Blackstone, Bravado, Broadway, Chicago II, Diva, Dynamo, Glade, Goldstar, Moonlight, Moonshadow, Princeton (P-105), Prosperity, Ram I, Serene, Wildwood

Compact-Midnight Type
Alexa, Arcadia, Award, Awesome, Barrister, Beyond, Blue Velvet, Bluestone, Courtyard-high maintenance, Everest, Everglade, Excursion, Freedom II & III, Ginney, Impact, Liberator, Midnight, Midnight II, Midnight Star, Moonbeam, NuDestiny, NuGlade, Odyssey, Perfection, Quantum Leap, Rhythm, Rugby II, Total Eclipse, Tsunami

Compact-America Type
America, Apollo, Arrow, Bedazzled, Bordeaux, Boutique (changed to "Other" type), Brilliant, Dynamo, Glenmont, Kingfisher, Langara, Mallard, Mercury, Mystere, Royale, Showcase, Sonoma, Unique

There are 12-14 genetic families, but I only select (and suggest selecting) from these three. The reason is that the others for the most part have not undergone nearly the improvements in such areas as genetic color, growth habit, disease resistance, etc. as have the "Compact" types, so its almost futile to incorporate them into a KBG blend because theyre just too different. Please dont misconstrue. Im not saying this applies to all of the others, but these three categories have experienced overwhelming introductions of new hybrid cultivars and improved varieties. The reasons that once dictated the need for blending 4-5 bluegrasses together (or mixing in other species for that matter) is pretty much obsolete now with progressive developments in disease resistance, shade tolerance, and heat/drought tolerance most especially. As A.J. mentioned, most of these will easily thrive as a mono stand so certainly will as a mono culture.

I select for good overall disease protection but if there is a disease that commonly plagues your lawn, I would need you to tell me that because I rarely ask. I always ask for shade conditions but neglected to ask you, so please inform in case I have to reconsider my suggestions to you.

It doesnt appear Lebanon Seaboard has yet submitted Zinfandel to NTEP trials, plus it seems to still be in the hush stages, so Im not yet aware of its classification. It will be available for purchase in September, but I can pretty much guarantee it will be next to impossible to buy this soon.

Heres a general description:
excellent overall turf quality
dark green genetic color
excellent performance at lower cutting heights
excellent resistance to leaf spot, stripe smut and stem rust
very good winter color and spring green-up
medium-fine leaf texture
excellent turf density and wear tolerance

Bestlawn,
Once again you have wow'ed my expectations. Thank you very much.
I do not have a specific issue (disease) plaguing my existing lawn unless you consider POA Annua a disease (LOL).

This mix is going to be sown in a area that is 75+% percent sunny.

Do you have a recomendation for a KGB species that will thrive in low sunlight areas (3-4 hours daily) and less in some smaller areas? I am tired of the poor TTTF & Perennial Rye performance, let alone "Shady" mixes.

Thanks Again,
Chris

BestLawn,
I am interested in getting a recommendation for a mixture of KBG for my Michigan lawn. I seeded back on 2001 with a 60% perennial rye and 40% KBG and would like to use all KBG this fall to reseed. Do you have any suggestions?

Hey Lutzd79, tell me please when you plan to seed your lawn. Have you scheduled a timetable? Let me know soon, okay.

Chris, you're absolutely right. Neither rye nor kbg have any business growing under shady conditions or being a component in a shady mix. And that's the thing, you're going to compromise turf quality by sowing kbg under shade. Let me make sure I understand what you're saying. Your lawn is 75% sunny (most of the day) and 25% shade (some portions of the day). Or, you're saying 25% of the lawn is under shade pretty much all the time. If the former, the blend I suggested will be fine if you swap Midnight II for Award. If the latter, you don't want kbg growing in that shade. Your options then are either tall fescue or fine fescue for the whole lawn.....or transition kbg (in the sunny areas) into fine fescue (in the shade areas). What happens along the transition line is a mixture of both. Check BillHill's response in this thread. It's what he did and loves it. Also, A.J. offers advice here. Decide what you think is best based on exactly what you were trying to tell me. And, don't let transitioning sound troublesome to you because it isn't and works out swell.

KatDog, with that mix I have no fear shade is at all a consideration. I (also in Michigan) overseeded a few years back with Award and Boutique. Add Moonlight to your blend and man-oh-man I am jealous of your lawn already LOL. I'm not asking you to because I don't know your seeding plans, but please tell me youre going to start from scratch.

You can purchase Award and Moonlight from
Pawnee Buttes Seed pawneebuttesseed.com
800-782-5947 ask for Glenn

Purchase Boutique from
Williams Lawn Seed wls.com 800-457-9571

Sorry I dont one location for all three, but that is usually very difficult. Im in the process of updating two year old resources, so I just might get lucky for you.

Bestlawn,
I am looking to overseed around the middle of August probably around August 17th as soon as I get back from vacation.

Hi Bestlawn,
Thank you for the recommendation. I live on 1.5 acres and had not planned to start from scratch. Was planning to core areate the lawn, apply compost and seed. The problem is more on the sides of my yard where I think the rye grass cannot stand the heat/drought conditions so it looks like crap. I do have a 16 zone sprinkler system. Do you think I should start over?

Lutzd79, I was hoping you didn't answer until tomorrow LOL. I really don't want you to feel I'm putting you off but am trying hard to work within confines and against roadblocks. I need to feel confident and excited even, but I haven't gotten there just yet. Well, I was with the blend I suggested but received really bad news today that is hurting me to my heart LOL. Speaking with one of the suppliers, I was told he didn't carry Diva this year because last year's crop was contaminated with Poa annua. BUMMER! That means I certainly won't try any other retailer, fearing their supply is from the same harvest. They often don't know but luckily this guy recognized or was privy to that information. He did say he plans to take a look at this year's crop but won't receive it until September. I see that is too late for your timetable and was the reason I asked. Soooo, that news sent me in another direction. I wanted to know more about Bewitched (scroll down) but NTEP didn't show results in Ohio. A representative at Turf Merchants, was able to direct me, and the ratings are fantastic. She gave me the rundown on disease resistance and genetic color, which just about equals Award for dark blue/green color. I'm excited again LOL! with still needing someplace to purchase. She also gave some suppliers to call, so back on that track tomorrow. In the meanwhile, you can order Award and Bedazzled from Pawnee Buttes (above).

KatDog, I don't think these elite type KBG's should ever be seeded into another species unless there is a specific purpose. But that is my purely subjective opinion LOL. I only know they don't have to be. I will say that unless your existing grass pretty much matches in color and growth habit, then yes start over. I'll tell you also that ryegrass can impede/reduce KBG germination and establishment. Food for thought.

Hi Bestlawn,
Below is an overview of my lawn. I'll break it into 3 groups for ease of being descriptive.
Group A
Front yard - 90% of the area receives 75% or more sun
North Side - 100% of the area receives 75% or more sun
Back yard - 80% of the area receives 75% or more sun

Group B
Front yard - 10% of the area recieves 25% or so sun
Back yard - 20% of the area receives 30% or so sun

Group C
South side - 100% of the area receives 25% or less sun

My plan:
Group A - I am planning to sow the KGB mix that we have been discussing over the last couple of days.

Group B - I was hoping to find a KGB cultivar that would be 'acceptable' in this area (knowing that it may not "thrive") with this approximate level of direct sunlight. Otherwise, I would consider transitioning into a quality Fine Fescue as you suggested earlier. I'll check the threads that you pointed out for recommendations.

Group C - I have no clue what to do, but with foot traffic and necessary access to the back-yard, non-turf ground cover would not be feasible. Plus with this level of light, turf is not apparently feasible either, unless you know something that I don't (a distinct possibility...lol)
Chris

Nope, not a KBG for Group B. Transitioning to FF is a much better idea.
That same FF can be sown into Group C and you're good to go.

Best Lawn,
I was on the NTEP site and luckily my town is one of the test sites. (University Park, PA) I was evaluating the KBG results at the link below and I noticed the top couple did not have names but rather numbers of some sort as identification. Does that mean that they are under development, and not available to buy? My lawn is 3 years old and I was going to slit seed to thicken the lawn up in a few places. The lawn was seeded with a blend of around 50% KBG, 30 rye, and 20% fescue. Do you think I should continue with this blend or would it be ok to go with all KBG. I would like to use the premium seed and overseed with a slit seeder over the next few years to try and "replace" the generic seed that was used. Any suggestions? I really appreciate any and all input. Thanks

Hi PSU,
If you look at the entire NTEP report and take a look at the "Entries and Sponsors" page (pg 2) in the 2005 report, you will see the corresponding cultivar number and see who it's manufactured by.

For example, BD03-159 is made by the Scotts seed company. I interpret this to mean that you will find BD03-159 in one of the Scott's KBG seed products. I'm sure Scotts as well as the other companies, package these cultivar's under their own (proprietary) variety name.

From what I have read you are going to want to look at the cultivar's (from the same page) that have an asterik next to them meaning they are commercially available.

Just my $.02. I'll leave the additional details to the subject matter experts.

-Chris

Navistar,

Actually, since Scott's purchased the turf-seed company last year, it is more likely that the seed is a turf-seed product.

Scott's is putting very little of that seed in their packaged products found in the box stores.

I was going to slit seed to thicken the lawn up in a few places.
Whatever seed you use, you want to do the whole lawn and not just a few places. I just wanted to stipulate that thought it's probably what you're already planning to do.

Excellent details, Chris, but ditto what Turf Toes said. You simply are not going to find premium seeds in store-bought packages. Plus, I have never understood Scott's at all. They've poured millions of dollars into seed research only to mass market junk. I have no idea why they purchased Turf-Seed and really hate that they did.

The numbers mean they are new varieties that have been submitted for testing. They won't be named until it is determined they will be a viable competitor. They are not yet ready for market and therefore not available for purchase just as you thought. Most new ones are tested 2-5 years before they are named and are available.

Concerning your lawn and what seed to use, I will give my purely subjective :) view and some technical to consider. I absolutely hate mixing bluegrass with ryegrass and really don't like it with the fescues either. The only reasons for doing it that I can see are for utility purposes, such as simply to have a creeping variety for filling in when the bunch types thin out. The fact is, you should overseed regularly - every 2-3 years after good establishment - for several reasons. That applies to every lawn no matter the species and would negate that utility purpose altogether.

When it comes to pre-mixes, they are often poorly comprised of varieties that do not compliment each other as far as growth habit, genetic color, etc., and selecting varieties among 2 or 3 species poses the same problem. Generally, someone who is familiar with all the species can share their results and varieties they selected, but it otherwise becomes quite the guessing game.

Something else to consider is the varieties that were used. Had you told me the lawn is older or has been the same lawn for many years, I would know immediately it is nothing like the ones sold today and could give you a conclusive answer. But, you say it's only three years old, so I don't know if what you have are fairly recent developments or rather long-standing varieties still sold today that are not compatible. One factor is most recent varieties of rye, kbg, and the fescue boast dwarf growth habit, which means they are low/slow growing. They don't have to be mowed as high and they don't have to be mowed as often. Imagine mixing them in with a lawn composed of long-standing varieties that grow faster and taller. What you end up with is uneven, spikey growth between mowings that compromises quality and appearance since obviously you don't want to have to mow the lawn every 3 or 4 days.

Ryegrass has been found to express an allelopathic chemical that stunts/reduces/inhibits the growth of bluegrass, so that is something else to think about. One other thing is a lawn seeded over time with kbg into an existing lawn of ryegrass and/or fescue in effort to convert it will eventually make the bunch types look like weeds (an eyesore) once the kbg becomes dominant. Counter-productive in my opinion.

My suggestion is to get rid of the lawn you have and start over with a blend of cultivars of whatever species you prefer. They are all perfectly capable of thriving as a mono-culture. My opinion in this regard is both personal and analytical, but you have to decide what is right for your lawn and your growing conditions based on what you want to achieve. For example, shade may be an issue, how much shade, whether there is a disease prevalent in your area, if there are imposed water restrictions, etc.

Good luck and I hope I helped a little.

Bestlawn,
Thanks again for all of your help. I too am bummed that Diva is not an option but Bewitched seems like it would be a perfect match as well. I really appreciate your help and I do not feel that you are putting me off...I am light years ahead of where I would be without your help...just think, I would of had a lawn with three types of grass from the same mother plant :) shewwwwww, I am glad you caught me in time from making this lawn faux paus. Thanks again and I look forward to hearing about the third option.

Bestlawn,

I am having a hard time finding Bewitched, I don't know if you have had any better success? If it is too difficult to find, what do you think about Moonlight with the Award/Bedazzled mix? It seems to have excellent resistance to powdery mildew but I am unsure how it performs in this area. Once again, I want to thank you for the time and effort you are putting into this for me. You clearly know what you are talking about and have been a great help. It seems like you have generated a nice list of contacts in the seed business.

Thanks,
Darren

It was Moonlight's performance in your area that I didn't suggest it despite wanting to very badly. Kinda brought to mind what A.J. said above. Not much luck on the Bewitched last week, but then I really wasn't able to make calls Thursday or Friday being really busy with last minute weekend orders. I print obituary program books as well as photo videos for funerals, and several came in for Friday and Saturday services. I had one producer return my call from earlier in the week, but I'm afraid I wasn't able to take it. I'll get right back on it tomorrow. Hopefully, his will be good news. If not, I still others to call. Did you see my post from Wednesday? It's somewhat difficult so far.

I really appreciate your patience, Darren, and I finally have good news. First, let me tell you that all the long, I could have suggested purchasing Bewitched from SummitSeed.com but I didn't want to for a couple reasons. One is that they were the first to raise prices on bluegrass, and they nearly doubled prices at that. So, what they used to sell for $3.50-$4.50 per pound is now upwards of $7.00 per pound. But the main reason is theirs is not sod-quality seeds, so there is always the question of Poa annua contamination.

There is Preferred Seed in Buffalo, New York 716-895-7333 ask for Ed Russell. The only problem is he won't have it until mid-August. He's a little high too at roughly $6.00 a pound (not exact price), but he says it will be sod quality. You'd want to allow time for shipping or pay extra for priority or overnight delivery. I'm just thinking in terms of your projected time frame. If I may suggest you call him soon to let him know you're interested and to lock him into the price.

Good luck with your seeding project. I apologize that it took me so long to locate Bewitched, but there is no other really good Compact type performer in your area besides Diva, and I couldn't bring myself to settle on just anything. Moonlight would have been my last resort and with the complete confidence that you would not have been entirely displeased with it, but I did want to try to find Bewitched first. The Lawn Care Forum is happy to help if you need suggestions for seed bed preparation, seeding methods, and irrigation schedule for the seeds and new seedlings.

BESTLAWN:

I hate to keep you busy recommending KBG seed. I live in Massachusetts and currently have a KBG, Rye, Fescue mix. I am leaning toward killing it off and starting from scratch. Which cultivars will perform well in my region. Thanks for your input. Look forward to hearing from you.

Hi there, Caesar. After I'm able to compose a blend for you, I'm going to begin a new thread addressed to you personally with my recommendations. So look for it, okay.

Anyone else interested in kbg blends, please start a new thread addressed to me or no one in particular. The reason I ask is that all of the replies here go directly to Darren's personal email and that really wouldn't be fair to him the longer this thread keeps growing.

Thanx so much for being considerate of him.

Bestlawn,
Thank again for your help. I just ordered my Award and Bedazzled today from Pawnee Buttes, it was about $6.50 a pound which seems to be the norm when ordering 15 lbs of each. I also taked to Ed from Preferred Seed, so he is going to call me when he gets Bewitched in and is able to ship it, he said it should get to me around mid to late August. Thanks so much for your help and I can't wait for the growing season to get here so I can plant my new seed.

Thanks,
Darren

Oh wow, that means Pawnee Buttes has raised prices, too. We've been talking about that on the forum for the last couple months, knowing it was going to happen with everyone the closer it gets to seeding time. Pawnee Buttes was still 3.50-4.00 a pound last month. No way around it now I don't suppose.

Darren, don't shoot me okay, but I found out today that Preferred Seed also sells Award and Bedazzled. I always, always, get that information to prevent having to purchase from different places. I guess I became so excited about Bewitched when I spoke with him, that I forgot to ask what others he sells. Had to share my blunder with you. Sorry about that. If it matters at all to you, it may not be too late to cancel your Pawnee Buttes order, then let Ed Russell know you're going to add to you order so he can keep some aside for you.