No I'm not, Metal
LOL
I am female

ROFL... That explains the patience!

Thanks Mallory for all the help! I've pasted them all in my notes. :)

turf_toes,

Just for my database, I found Roselawn Agriseed's phone number thru one of your post. Is the contact person still John?

Assuming I will buy from RoseLawn Agriseed, should I tell him that you told me about them? But what's your real name? :)

Thanks,

Ron

Forgot to mention fertilizer.
Soybean Meal

Turf-Seed/Roselawn Agriseed produces Midnight II, Moonlight, and Brilliant (and many others). They don't produce Award, Diva, or Bedazzled. You can swap Bedazzled for Brilliant if you want to purchase from them to be sure of no weed seeds. Brilliant and Bedazzled for PM resistance are much the same. The difference is insignificant based on LSD values, but Brilliant rates higher. Ask for John Rector like Turf Toes (Bob) says. He's a great guy. If he recommends anything different, take his word for it. It's possible he'll recommend Prosperity or Moonlight over Diva, and that's okay. You'll still get the dark, blue-green color you want. My suggestions were based on the NTEP ratings for your general area. John's a good guy and knows better than I do. He wouldn't steer you wrong.

Have I totally confused you now?
LOL

Nope, you didn't confuse me. :) I'm really happy that you are guiding me. Sure, I will contact John and ask more about it. I will also mention about the NTEP you found for my area.

I will keep you posted.

Thanks again!

Mallory,

Now I know how a lawn would look like after setting the mower to the lowest. I have some few PM but only on a 10 sqft. I scalped it and bagged it. :) From what I see, only 1/4" height of blades got left. I can see the soil.

My neighbor will think I am insane when I decide to do the overseeding this fall. :D hehehe

bestlawn,

I just spoke with J.R. of Agriseed. He is a very nice person. He was worried because you used to call him before according to him. He hasn't heard from you lately. :)

He gave me some advice not to expect too much in the 1st year after overseeding and that I may feel disappointed if I don't see any changes. Now, I'm thinking if I should do it or not. :D hehehe
And you are exactly correct, he recommended MII, Prosperity and Moonlight. He said that these are the 3 elite seeds that are the darkest. They are slow growing, compact, drought tolerant and heat tolerant. I forgot to ask if they are disease resitant.

What is your comment about the NTEP suggestion over his recomendation for my area?

Price is at $5/lbs. :( ouch

Are you really having second thoughts LOL?
Would you want to consider a plan less drastic?

I also have a worry in the first week. Can I water at 7am then 6pm once I get home from work?

About the seed blend he offered, it is nice since I just have to buy it from one store. One shipping cost for all 3 seeds. However, is there a huge plus on the mix you previously recommended? I know that you based it from NTEP. What are your thoughts on hix mixed for our area?

MII+Prosperity+Moonlight VS. MII+Diva+Bedazzled

Honestly, everytime I visualize the result of this overseeding project, my worry goes away. :)

Are there approach other than slit seeder? $100 for 1 day is expensive. Maybe, there are cheaper ways that you guys know of but does the same job.

A slit seeder does the best job, but what I do is core aerate before seeding. It's not nearly as good as slit seeding, but around here, it usually only costs about $30-$40 to core aerate a lawn (and that's with somebody else wrestling with the machine). The result is lots of holes with the soil exposed, ensuring good seed to soil contact. Last year, I tried it with a Turf Hound, but I'm not ambitious enough to get enough holes that way, so this year, I'm going to hire it done.

So here is the plan I'm thinking.

August 1 or whatever is weekend
- Apply SBM

Sept 1 or whatever is weekend
- 6am Scalp lawn
- 10am plant seeds using slit seeder
- water the lawn
- return slit seeder :) hehehe

Then follow Mallory's water schedule

-water 15-20 minutes twice a day for two weeks
-water 20-30 minutes once a day for one week
-water 30-45 minutes once a day every other day for one week
-water 30-45 minutes once a day twice a week for one week
-move into deep irrigation, increasing the time to provide 1 inch of water all over and decreasing the frequency to just once a week.

I don't know if I still should core aerate after scalping the lawn. That's another $40 :(

If you're going to use the slit seeder, I wouldn't core aerate. I mentioned that in response to this:

"Are there approach other than slit seeder? $100 for 1 day is expensive. Maybe, there are cheaper ways that you guys know of but does the same job."

Core aeration is cheaper, but slit seeding will do a better job.

If you want to go all out, hydroseeding is even better than slitseeding.

MII, Moonlight & Brilliant
This essentially the same.

Have you checked out the cost of the slit seeder. Someone posted the other day they paid $100, but it might not cost as much in your area.

I wouldn't fertilize so far in advance. Maybe just two weeks ahead, and it really wouldn't matter if you do it at the same time as seeding. Bluegrass is slow to germinate. Could be two weeks or three, then more time to establish. You may be 6 weeks to 2 months before you can mow or fertilize again.

Also, check weather conditions beginning mid-August. See if you can get lucky and take advantage of rain. Or you can check out the timers in this thread that turn themselves on while you're away. I'm afraid weather will still be rather warm and the seeds may dry between 7am and 6pm. For the first few weeks after planting, your sole objective in life is to keep them moist. Compost or peat moss will help retain moisture.

Ron,

Bestlawn is right (again). I only paid $80 last year when I rented the slit seeder from Home Depot.

Mallory,

Is there a way you can help me with the price of the seed so that it's somewhere close but not lower to the price you have told to me previously? $5/lbs. is a bit high for me.

Bob,

I'm going to HD later to check out the rental cost.

Thanks,

Ron

Now I need to ask a question. ;-)

I've installed (well, am installing and will finish this weekend) a sprinkler system for the lawn on timers up to three times a day for any time period up to 99 minutes. I won't have trouble keeping seed damp.

Turf_toes and Subywu have both suggested using Roundup on the existing lawn since I will have good sprout and probably will be happier with pure elites than what I have. I'm adding Midnight II, Bedazzled, and Moonlight.

That idea's fine by me (I'll leave 200 square feet for the dogs since I'd rather not track mud into the house all the time--in a less-obvious part of the lawn and live with it until next year when I do that).

Do you think that's a good idea, or will I be more pleased if I overseed into Abbey and Kenblue?

Thanks for your help!

Hey morpheuspa,

Where did you buy your seeds and how much? How many pounds too?

By the way, I conducted more analysis on the lawn I scalped yesterday. I still have some peat left as shown on the picture below. It's about 5/16" thick. I'm worried that when seed gets planted, sun won't reach it. What do you think guys?

{{gwi:103016}}

{{gwi:103017}}

I think that depends on what you want to accomplish and the considerations of managing grasses with different requirements in one lawn. In the latter respect, I'd say they're right since your new grass needs water less often (being more drought tolerant) and less frequent mowing (being lower/slower growing). So, growth will be uneven if not spikey from week to week. You'll mow more often than the new grass requires although the same as you usually have been doing. And in the hottest days of summer with no available moisture, the older grass can be stressed in need of water. Although I usually stress overseeding every 2-3 years anyway, it becomes even more important and best to do every year for a while because your older grass is more vigorous than these newer ones and will take over if you allow it. I'm not especially familiar with Abbey, but Kenblue is mighty hardy. What you do in this situation is manage for the new lawn by mowing lower and withholding water, which will stress the old lawn and it will eventually weed itself out. None of this is difficult and will just take time (which translates into several years), but why go through any of it when you can start fresh at go?

Ron, on the otherhand, doesn't want to get rid of the old lawn. He's learned a lot and worked really hard, including battling disease and weeds, in these past few months. All he wants is the grass to be darker green, which can only be accomplished one of two ways - overseed or spray paint LOL. He knows he'll have to manage for the new lawn for some time to come.

Ron, I neglected to mention just in case the use of that "R" word stuff is your deterrent, vinegar will have the same affect.

Where did you buy your seeds and how much? How many pounds too?

35 pounds for 7,000 square feet, to break down into three seedings:

2 lbs/K ft when I do this (at slightly the wrong time, around Aug 1) = 14 lbs

2 lbs/K ft Labor Day (if I have massive failure. If not, and I doubt I will, my parents are interested and will buy it off me) = 14 lbs

1 lb/K ft frost seeding in March = 7 lbs (it doesn't take as well and summer survival is lower, but it'll help fill in blank areas and I can and will water it appropriately next summer)

It was not cheap at $300 for sod quality seed, blended for me (as I wasn't sure of doing it right and I'd rather pay for a job well-done) and shipped. I got it from the Seed Super Store.

Re your peat moss; don't worry, be happy. KBG seed doesn't need to see the sun. The sprouts need to see the sun when they grow, but you can slit-seed 'em a quarter inch deep. There's no light down there and they grow just fine. :-)

You're going to slit seed, right? That peat will do you good.

Ah, Bestlawn, thank you! Roundup it is.

Er, just a sec. I have a thought. If you listen quite closely, it's rattling around in there looking for friends and not finding any.

Except for areas where I have visible compaction (only a few I can do by hand, circa 200 square feet) do I then want to core aerate, or should I slit seed? Or both, core followed by slit?

Or does it even matter as long as I do one or the other?

Thanks!

Ron, when I checked with Williams and Pawnee Buttes, they had not yet raised prices on their seeds.
Call to check and see now.

From what I read, core aeration is not needed when slit seeding.

Mallory, yes, I will be slit seeding. I want to have a high percentage of success! :)

About the peat, I was worried that grass won't be able to poke itself out.

I'm really excited!!! I think I should just set aside the worries and just think about the happiness it will bring to us down the road.

So lastly, you don't have any worries with John's seed blend, do you? Or do you prefer what you recommended to me before?

Leon is very nice. I just spoke to him and prices are still the same as you mentioned. He's got MII, Bedazzled and Moonlight. He doesn't have Diva, Brilliant, and neither prosperity.

I can't imagine doing both core aerating and slit seeding. What a muddy mess that would be LOL. But, if you have compaction problems, you want to fix that now rather than wait til later, so core aerate and seed. The best part about aerating and seeding at the same time is the exposed cores that aerating leaves. Ideal for seed/soil contact, plus the cores will carry the seeds with them when they mulch themselves back into the soil. It's going to look awful and you'll have to walk the lawn with the cores all over in order to spread the seeds. But it will turn out great.

Save yourself the money and go with MII, Moonlight, and Bedazzled.

Now that the Diva is gone, I'm assuming that the percentage would be as follows:

Bedazzled -> 40%
Moonlight -> 40%
MII -> 20%

Is this correct?

Thanks again! Core aeration is now on the list.

Yep, that's it.

Hope I'm not hijacking as I'll try to stay on topic :)

1) Is "scalping" a must when overseeding? (I don't have a bagging mower and assume I could rake it all up but boy will that take some time.

2) If I'm reading it right, if you have compact clay soil, aerating is more recommended than slit seeding to prep the soil?

3) In what situations would you kill the existing lawn vs. overseeding? My new fescue lawn last fall came in ok and I used average at best seed at the time but I've got a lot of bare spots still and its pretty thin in most places.

Thanks!

Establishment (start from scratch such as sod removal or new construction), renovation (re-establish or improve existing lawn), and maintenance (maintain diversity within existing lawn) are reasons for sowing seeds. There are situations that dictate killing the lawn first. The condition of the existing lawn, wanting to convert from one lawn species to another, or incorporating very different varities of the same species are motivating factors. Assuming you are simply overseeding more tall fescue into your existing tall fescue lawn, scalping is not necessary nor is killing if off. All you want to do is mow low, but in your case, mow it down gradually to within 1.5 inches. Cut off one third and another one third three or four days later. Repeat if necessary. And I'm afraid, that isn't going to keep you from having to rake it up in absence of a bag, but there isn't nearly so much to rake all at once although it does have you mowing and raking two or there times in one week. Now, consider the problem you're having that prompts you to feel you have to overseed in the first place. It's rather thin and there are bare spots. So, do what you have to do for it to be right. Would it makes sense to seed twice and still have thin grass and bare spots? You want to mow the existing grass low and rake it up so the seeds are able to reach the soil and the continuously growing grass doesn't shade them from sunlight. Moreover, you can't mow until the new grass reaches about 4 inches. How tall will the existing grass be by then if you don't mow it low to begin with?

Core aerating your lawn is something you can practice every year to relieve compaction or prevent it. This is especially true if you use chemical fertilizers because they don't amend the soil as organics do. Core aerating at the same time enhances your seeding effort.

Thank you for your thorough response, Bestlawn.

I plan on sticking with TF but from what I'm reading would like to incorporate about 10% KBG in with that.

"It's rather thin and there are bare spots. So, do what you have to do for it to be right. Would it makes sense to seed twice and still have thin grass and bare spots?"

Would you be so kind to clarify this? I don't think I'm following your point.

Bestlawn, I'm doing almost the exact same blend as Virtuosity this fall. Would you mind explaining the reasoning behind the percentages you recommended instead of just equal amounts of each?
Bedazzled -> 40%
Moonlight -> 40%
Midnight -> 20%

Your words.....
"I've got a lot of bare spots still and its pretty thin in most places"

I was going by what you said and trying to urge you to put up with the mowing and raking despite not wanting to since you don't have a mower bag. Seeding success depends on doing it right, not multiple efforts of doing it wrong. Therefore, it wouldn't make sense to overseed this year only to end up in the same situation.

bob,

Since I will buy the same blend as what you have planted previously, I'm just curious, do you still recall the percentage of each seed?

thanks,

ron

Not negotiable LOL
But don't worry. Your grass will still look as good as his.

Bestlawn,

I think you missed my post to this thread.
Please scroll up a tad :) Thanks.

Well, geeze, Brian. How does that keep happening???
When I first suggested a blend to Ron, it was slightly different but equal parts of the three, and I asked if he had any shade issue(s) so I'd know to be concerned about powdery mildew or not. He said no except that the house shades the lawn a certain portion of the day. I wasn't concerned since I'm sure every house shades the lawn for some short period, but then he got powdery mildew a couple days later. So, I shifted the weight of the blend to favor the highly resistant varieties and those that better tolerate shade than the Midnight types. This has ended up being the final blend and I still want to favor Moonlight and Bedazzled for both reasons.

Mallory,

I remember when I was speaking to Mr Williams, he said, he can't promise that there will be no weed seeds. He mentioned something that I really didn't understand. It sounded like "noxious weeds". But then, he told me that he sold 600k lbs. or 6m lbs. of grass seeds last year which proves that he is selling really nice and clean seeds. What do you think about this seed store?

Thanks,

Ron

I forgot that I went to HomeDepot today to buy some moulding and PTW. I also went to the rental department. Looking at the TOOL RENTAL PRICE LIST, I didn't see a slit seeder. However, I saw Overseeder(Gas). It cost $36 for 4 hours, then $52 for 1 day. Is this the slit seeder? Unfortunately, no one was there earlier so I can ask.

More than likely it's the same but find out for sure.

I don't know of anyone having any problems with the grass they purchased from Williams or if there were any complaints during my hiatus. I don't know if I can get more information by talking to his wholesaler but I'll try on Monday.

I was googling about overseeding, the articles says that weeds are likely to invade since lawn has been scalped. Is this true?

That's always a concern when overseeding due mainly because of the watering you have to do. That's the main reason seeding in spring is not the best time because even more weeds are likely than in fall. But yes, it is a consideration. However, if it were so much of one, no seeding would ever get done.

There are products to help prevent or counter, but I doubt you'd be interested in those.

To add to what Mallory said, when you overseed, you need to water frequently in order to get the seeds to germinate. When you do that, you provide perfect conditions for seeds to germinate. The seeds don't care whether you put them there or they were there already. The conditions are right, so they'll germinate.

Ron, I think you're really dedicated to having a great lawn, and I think it's going to show next year, if it hasn't already.

Yes bpgreen, I have a very high spirit of doing it this year. However, money is the dependency. Hopefully, I will be able to collect payment by the end of this month or early next month for the web project I'm currently developing. As soon as I get it, I will order from Williams seed. Oh Mallory, if you have some time on Monday and if it's really ok with you, can you please ask them about the weed seeds?

So folks, since I'm planning to overseed last week of August, what's the percentage of the weeds growing? Is it really high?

Just a headsup in case you didn't see my "Purchase seeds now" post from last month, Moonlight is in short supply. I linked to the site I read that on, but John would be better able to tell us for sure. Wanted to let you know in case you run into something like that.

Yep, I'll call them on Monday. As for you last question, I am going to be real honest with you.....

1. I have no idea because I would be a little concerned about seeds that are not labeled "sod quality." But like I said, I'll talk to him on Monday. If nothing else, he can read the labels to me.

2. No one can really estimate a percentage because it would also depend on your soil. You've already had one or two weed issues, so you know it is not fallowed ground.

3. My biggest concern is the possibility of any content of Poa annua. That also becomes an issue with seeds not labeled "sod quality." I feel better with that labeling even though there is never any guarantee. A couple or three years ago, it seemed almost every bluegrass, fescue, and ryegrass harvest was laden with Poa. Not only harvests but people's lawns all over the country (transition zone and northern areas) were suddenly infested despite them never having a problem before. Weather was the culprit that year and beyond anyone's control. However, I'd hate for you to end up with a batch of that seed. Mainly anything else that might sprout are winter annuals and can be controlled by some means, but nothing like the battle that Poa would be.

Soooo, I think what that means is you'd purchase from Pawnee Buttes since they offer sod quality or pay a little more from Roselawn Agriseeds and ensure weed-free seeds. And really, I expect everyone is going to raise prices this year the closer it gets to the seeding season. Summit Seed, Seedland, and SeedSuperStore (who are always outrageous) already did. No one knows better than I do what an issue money can be but if at all possible, try to purchase sooner.

Yep, you are exactly right! Since I will be seeing this lawn everyday, I might as well buy a sod quality seeds. This way, I won't regret, and that, neighbors won't make fun of me. Hehehe. I'm very sure that once I scalp my lawn, neighbors will think I am a weirdo. But am glad two neighbors now have been asking how I take care of my lawn. ;)

I haven't contacted Pawnee Buttes yet. Glad you told me that they sell sod quality seeds. I'm just afraid of the Galaxy blend. I remember someone posted his Galaxy recently. It wasn't as dark as turf_toes. This is the reason why I want to stick with the blend you told me :D (MII,Moon,Beda).