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harvestmann

Shin persimmon astringent

12 years ago

A few years back I read an article in Hortideas about a non-astringent persimmon that was exceptionally hardy. The source of the article was a nursery in Kentucky that was also a source for the variety which I promptly purchased.

Now I'm harvesting the fruit and it is very sweet and good but highly astringent until soft-ripe, which is a big disappointment. I love a firm, sweet persimmon of the Fuyu type and this ain't it. It's still well worth having for it's precocious fruiting which began on its second year.

One thing I find surprising is that it bears seeded fruit without cross-pollination. The seed is hard and appears fully formed, so I'm thinking about trying to grow it from seed as there would seem to be a good chance the trees would be similar to the parent. Any thoughts from you persimmon growers out there.

Comments (71)

  • 12 years ago

    I am not certain if Shin is PV (Pollination variant) or not. Assuming it is the same as Shin Na Da the only info I found on it with a quick search was on the England's site, which does state it will be firm and non-astringent when ripe. It does not state if it is PV or not. PV types such as Chocolate and Coffeecake (aka Nishimura Wase) will normally develop brown flesh around the seeds that is non-astringent, but if not fully seeded I understand some of the flesh can remain astringent while firm. I have tried to stay away from cultivars that produce significant male flowering as I do not want all my trees to have seeded fruit, and as I understand the PV types if not pollinated are not all that great once it softens and loses astringency, while the seeded fruit is highly favored and I loved the ones I have tried I just prefer a seedless fruit, and with about 30 other trees I would prefer to keep without heavy seeding. If I can find another location to place a couple trees I might put them in. On the common commercial astringent cultivar that would be in US markets that would be Hachiya. Saijo is a smaller fruit, but it almost always get high praise.

  • 12 years ago

    I got my tree from England- maybe he sold me a mislabeled tree or maybe the astringency is the result of growing further north.

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  • 12 years ago

    So it is the Shin Na Da. My tree had only a single small fruit to sample and that was several years ago, but I can say that the fruit was unlike the typical PCNA fruits like Fuyu and Jiro, and although I hadn't suspected it at the time, you may be on the right track in thinking that this could be a pollination variant variety. Your fruit having seeds makes me think that the flowers were likely pollinated, so I don't know whether adding a male will change your fruits' quality. Maybe the Englands would know or you may consider adding or grafting on a variety like Gailey, Hokkaido, Chocolate or others known to have male flowers to see for yourself.

  • 12 years ago

    bhawkins, my impression of Chocolate is that it pollinates itself - the male flowers on it will pollinate the female flowers on it. My Chocolate is the only persimmon I have that I have found any male flowers on. I expect this is also how hman's Shin got pollinated - from some of its own male flowers.

    Hman, I would check with the pictures of Shin on Clifford's website to see if it looks like your plant. You may be able to determine that the variety is incorrect just by the shape. I can't think of any other reason why it would be astringent for you but not for others. That said, persimmons have some mighty strange habits and I am still figuring new things out about their strange ways after ten years of growing them.

    Scott

  • 12 years ago

    Thanks Scott. Perhaps you or someone can help me with some questions I've been vexed about,

    Coffeecake is recommended by nurseries to pollinate Chocolate; does coffeecake also have male flowers? I've seen lots of discussion of Chocolates male flowers, but no discussion of coffeecake, other than its a pvna. But if coffeecake can pollinate chocolate, doesnt it have to have male flowers?

    For these PVNA cultivars,if they're not pollinated, are they astringent? or if not pollinated, do they just not taste as good?

    Can Hachiya sometimes have male flowers? I've read articles that Hichaya's close to Fuyu's will sometimes cause seeds.

    I've got about 15 kaki's planted, as they mature i'll have to watch all the flowers

    Thanks,

    Bob

  • 12 years ago

    Is not Coffeecake the same as Cocholate? Perhaps synonym for one material. PVNA fruits if not pollinated, should be astringent. If pollinated, flesh around seeds should be nonastringent, but close to skin, there s trace of tanins. generally, pollinated PVNA fruit will never be like PCNA. maybe i am misinformed, I am open to correction. It s little bit complicated about persimmon pollination, because on one plant there can be seperate male, seperate female and mixed flowers.

  • 12 years ago

    I am pretty sure Chocolate and Coffeecake are not the same. Coffeecake is a marketing name for the "Nishimura Wase" cultivar from what I understand. I have as well read that Chocolate as been at times used as a Generic label for several PV types which is quite frustrating as you can't be certain what you are getting. Cultivar chaos doesn't stop there either. Fuyu has sometimes be used generically for non-astringent cultivars, and on west coast what is generally referred to as Fuyu is Jiro. I believe I have 3 different Fuyu's from different sources and thats not even counting the bud sports like Matsumoto Wase Fuyu.

  • 12 years ago

    Hey Strudeldog, you seem to have lots of experience with kaki's. What are your favorite ones? Is there much of a taste difference between different pcna's? or pca's; or pva's?

    Apologies to Harvestman for hijacking the thread

  • 12 years ago

    No apology necessary. It's not hijacking, just continuing a conversation that started with my question being answered. I'm still "listening" with interest.

  • 12 years ago

    Harvestman, the story of the Shin Na Da persimmon turns out to be that it is a cross between an open pollinated seedling of a Korean PVNA and probably the PCA Hokkaido. Its being two generations away from a persimmon showing pollination variance explains why you are not seeing this trait in your fruit. Likely, your tree does have male flowers, like the male parent, accounting for the seeds in your fruit.

    From what I gather, the unique characteristic of Shin Na Da is its precocity. Even from seed, this tree began producing fruit in just a few years; from grafting, the same year. In light of this history, your idea of planting the seeds from your fruit may be worth pursuing. I would think that this one would be a good choice for selective breeding for cold hardiness given the short intervals between generations.

  • 12 years ago

    Thanks, but I am pretty much a rookie, there are others with more knowledge and established trees that contribute here, several on this thread alone . All the trees at my present location are no older than spring 2009 and most have not fruited yet. Kaki are probably my favorite trees that I am growing however and just hope weather and such don�t set me back. Maybe my palate is not that discerning but most of the PCNA taste pretty similar to me if they are at the same stage of ripeness. I think the stages of ripeness is a big factor and the PCNA color up well be they reach optimal flavor. I have been trying to keep the seeds in my fruit to a minimum so I have not focused much on the PV types, but I have had opportunity to taste several and enjoyed them. Of my PCA that have fruited Saijo is my favorite and Tamopan my least preferred, but of the 19 cultivars about 30 trees I have only 6 cultivars to have fruited and only limited numbers as most of my in ground tree are only 2 years. 12 of my cultivars are recent purchased potted trees I will be planting out in spring, I had grafted some of these same cultivars last spring with reasonable success, but my rootstock was very small bare root and they didn�t make very strong growth and decided to go ahead with a more established purchased tree. I am hoping within a few years to be able to evaluate better.
    I am not sure how to post pictures in this forum, no gallery here? but If I did correctly the link below Is a sampling of fruits from Just Fruits & Exotics last month. The Fruit behind HAO River is a huge non-astringent with good taste, but it was miss-labeled and they don�t know what it is. I purchased one, but this is the 1st year it fruited for them and only a few fruits. I think it was slow to come into bearing and very few fruit so maybe the large tasty fruit don�t make up for other shortcomings. The coin in the picture is a quarter for size reference

    {{gwi:125603}}

  • 12 years ago

    Thanks Strudeldog. Thats an impressive collection you're growing. I have about a dozen types, & like you have just started to get some fruit. Everytime I see an add about a kaki I seem to plant one. Yet based upon other comments here on the board, I'm not sure if there's going to be a lot of variation between types. I like giant fuyu & ichi kei ki jiro a little better than jiro, but its close.

    Sometimes I think I should have just planted a jiro, giant jiro, eureka, & seijo, & stopped there. Perhaps a chocolate & coffeecake on the other side of the house. 4-6 max. Then again, maybe I'll find the perfect persimmon for Dallas.

  • 12 years ago

    Wow an inpresive collection Strudeldog. Mine, American, of unknown type are as small as the quarter and 90% seed.
    Dan

  • 12 years ago

    Harvestman, you mentioned trying to grow the Shin seeds. I have never tried this, but I understand that any trees grown from seed of fruit pollinated by a male flower from a tree producing both male and female flowers will always be female. So all the trees from your seed should produce fruit.
    Hope you get some good ones.

  • 12 years ago

    From the conversation with Cliff:
    "A cultivar that I brought from Korea and In English Shin Na Da means WOW it is a pollen Variant Non-astringent but it is a week pollen variant the flesh is dark when ripe and the fruit is seeded."

  • 12 years ago

    Well, mine is extraordinarily precocious but the flesh is not dark- it is identical to the common commercial persimmon.

  • 12 years ago

    I gotta get me one of those......wife was thinking roses in that spot, roses are overrated

  • 12 years ago

    The waxy green leaves and orange fruit are highly ornamental as well and here in southeastern NY they are much less susceptible to pests than tea roses. Strictly no-spray so far.

  • 12 years ago

    So, Shin is PVNA type with male flowers(or mixes perhaps)and fruits are seeded. But what about cold hardiness of this variety? Is it really exceptionally hardy to -10 F as mentioned on one webpage? Any experience?

    Harbin - did Cliff say anything about hardiness?

  • 12 years ago

    No, he didn't. On his website he says "cold hardy in zone 6"
    My plant is still too small to be tested outside.
    Others may have tried it in the more northern parts.
    But to me -10 F is deadly for most of the cultivated kakis.

  • 12 years ago

    A very informative page about Kaki/Asian persimmon is the following:

    http://www.dofi.unifi.it/frutmin/database/LISTA2.htm

    A big drawback is that it is in Italian and unfortunately contains no information about Shin Na Da.

    By the way, I'm always interested in trading scions of Asian persimmons and it's the right time for it now.
    If somebody is interested too, please drop me a line.

    Here is a link that might be useful: A lot of Asian persimmons

  • 12 years ago

    I know that page, but no exact information about hardiness and no Shin Na Da in the list.

  • 12 years ago

    England wrote me that at -10 Shin starts to lose shoot tips and he doubts it could take much colder.

  • 12 years ago

    harvestman, do you mean -10 Fahrenheit? what about minimal winter temperatures in Eastern Kentucky? i have no idea about winter there.

  • 12 years ago

    yes, F.

  • 12 years ago

    You are right about the hardiness indicente, for me it's a riddle how they are able to judge the hardiness in Italy.
    But a hardiness of -10 F for an Asian persimmon sounds unrealistic for me, maybe for a very short period of time.
    My Muscat (French astringent variety) survived the winter 2009/2010 with four weeks of permanent frost and peaks of "only" -1 F with average dieback.

  • 12 years ago

    I am in zone 6B and observed persimmons in my garden, as well as in my sister's garden for 10+ years. Between two of us, we probably grow most of the availble through mail order persimmon varieties. All, including the supposed to be more tender varieties like Chocolate, Hachia, etc, survive winters here without any or with minimal dieback, even when young. We do experience some winters (but not for long) temps down to -10.
    Olga

  • 12 years ago

    Say Olga, is there much of a taste difference between the non-strigent varieties? Fuyu, ichi, ichi kei ki, hana fuyu, giant fuyu, izu, matsumoto, etc?

    Thanks,

  • 12 years ago

    How well do the Yates and Prok handle cold weather? I have both on order from Hidden Springs and I'm looking at some asians. I wonder if fruitnut has tried growing persimmons in his pots and greenhouse.
    Dan

  • 12 years ago

    olga 6b- do you grow Shin Na Da and Hokkaido from Kentucky nursery? What is your opinion about their hardiness? I have doubts that Hachiya will survive temperatures lower than -1 F with no dieback. Friend of mine tested it, at -1 F started to loose one-year old shoots and had dieback. It is on lotus rootstock and now he grows Hachiya in flower pot.

    Germanfigfriend - I agree with you, most of japanese persimmons hardly can survive temperatures down to -1 F for long time. But maybe there some more hardy varieties, suitable to colder climate and we should talk about them. Maybe some chinese or korean varieties are better adapted to colder winters. I have doubts about hardiness of italian or french...can resist temps to -1 F for short period (if ever), but not for long time.

    iammarcus - Yates and Prok are at least hardy enough to -10 F or lower.

  • 12 years ago

    Iammarcus,

    According to the International symposium on cultivar improvement of horticultural crops: The result of identify 92 varieties from the national germplasm resources nursery of persimmon was the "Denglonshi", "Hroguantoushi", and "Hyakume" were the most hardy. In addition, Kyung san ban si, Greatwall, Sheng, Saijo, Ichi Kei Jiro, and Korea are very cold hardy down to -10F.

    Tony

  • 12 years ago

    Thanks Tony and indicente, I think I may be able to grow outside. I'll check to see our frequency of -10F.
    Dan

  • 12 years ago

    I seem to remember reading that in a more artic environment, where winter temps don't fluctuate much, that there are varieties of Kaki that have survived lower than -20 F. or more. Not short periods but extended ones.

  • 12 years ago

    harvestman - I think, it is hardly possible with kaki.

    iammarcus - definitely, grow them outside with winter protection during first 1-2 years. it should be enough. virginiana as rootstock is probably better choice for your climate, but depends on winter temps.

  • 12 years ago

    Great Wall is a variety that is said to take stable winter temps well down into negative double digits- or alternatively, my memory is playing tricks on me. Have you seen any literature that contradicts this? I realize this doesn't mean they can survive similar cold in climates with widely fluctuating winter temps.

  • 12 years ago

    Havestment,

    There is a gentleman who lives in Kansas, possible Zone 5-6 has successfully grown some of the hardiest Kakis. You can read his story by Google it, Live for Jesus daily: Greatwall Asian persimmon. He offers good techniques and protections for them. I hope his experienced growing Kakis in the Midwest will help others to try also.

    Tony

  • 12 years ago

    Tony, I read the article and the temps they suggest that certain Kakis can survive nearly matches my memory which is always a good thing at my age.

    The methods they use are fairly standard issue- wind protection and blocking the low winter sun to keep the trees dormant. Same recs are made for apricots in cold climates.

  • 12 years ago

    there was one study of some varieties hardiness in lab conditions, citation of scientific paper is here :
    I. Ondrasek, B. Krska, A. Bilavcik- EVALUATION OF FROST HARDINESS IN SOME CULTIVARS OF DIOSPYROS SPP. BY ARTIFICIAL FREEZING.ISHS Acta Horticulturae 685: III International Symposium on Persimmon. I know that Great Wall was not included in the test and it was done by artificial conditions. The cultivars of Diospyros kaki L. had an LT50 from -13�C to -16�C for one-year shoots there. LT means -lethal temperature for 50 % of shoots. I don�t want to quarrel with you about hardiness, because there are hundreds of kaki varieties and seedlings. And it is good we talk about more cold hardy varieties. Shin Na Da should be one of them.

  • 12 years ago

    In, from where I'm sitting this is a discussion, not a quarrel. Unless I know how this study was done I can't evaluate it. I am a member of that association so I can get the study, most likely, and when I have time I will go over it.

    Evaluating cold hardiness of trees is very complicated because of the different stages of hardening off that occur. However, Kentucky growers who have been growing Kakis for decades tell of the hardy varieties withstanding -10 F before one year shoots begin to die. This is in our climate of widely fluctuating winter temps and those lows must sometimes occur when trees are not at their hardiest so it is likely that in the northern interior of China where temps are more stable they can withstand even colder temps.

  • 12 years ago

    Even at latitude 34, the deep south, the fluctuating temperatures can apparently wreak havoc at times.

    http://www.clemson.edu/hort/Kaki.php

  • 12 years ago

    harvestman - was the shape of your Shin fruits the same as presented on Kentucky nursery pictures? Still wondering,if your Shin could be something other than Cliff offers on his webpage.

  • 12 years ago

    You mean you think Cliff might have accidentally given me something else? No, I don't think so, now cliff thinks Shin is prone to being astringent.

  • 12 years ago

    Yes,exactly.Misunderstandings or bad labellings of plants happen. And than you can buy other plant than you wanted.So Shin is not PCNA type,probably pollination variant astringent type,right?

  • 12 years ago

    Well,as I recall, the Shin fruit I had looked like smallish Fuyu- it was a flat type. Is this what it's supposed to look like?

    You can ask England how he classifies it- I've forgotten the terminology as I only manage one of them on my own property and I don't have a lot of empty storage space beneath my scalp.

  • 12 years ago

    Well, when you look at England webpage, there are some photos of Shin na da. Here is the link http://www.nuttrees.net/shinnada.htm . I dont know, how your fruits looked like - you can compare your fruits with Cliff�s photos. But the shape is not similiar to Fuyu fruits, I think.

  • 12 years ago

    Looks like it. It is more similar to Fuyu than the astringent commercial varieties.

  • 12 years ago

    Harvestman,

    I have eating a lots of store bought Fuyu, they are more roundish and some are flat. The Shin na da on Cliff page at nuttrees.com is more acorn shape. pointed end.

    FC

  • 12 years ago

    Fruitcraz is right, also Cliff writes about Shin na da fruits on his webpage, that are conical shaped yellowish orange. Fuyu or Jiro have flat fruits, no pointed end. So maybe you did not buy Shin na da.

    By the way, at first look I do not see many differences in shape of Hokkaido and Shin na da fruits, maybe Hokkaido fruits are more ribbed.

  • 12 years ago

    Cliff thought his Shin had completely snapped below the graft union because the fruits he was getting from his snow damaged mother tree were astringent. After consulting with me, he decided to change his idea about Shin being non-astringent. Really, if he was getting fruit from the rootstock what are the odds they'd even be edible?

    What I had was extremely precocious which should be a pretty good indicator of variety.

    Why are you debating about the shape? To me they look more like Fuyu than the astringent varieties in stores. Maybe I just have no eye for shapes. Let's move on.

  • 12 years ago

    ScottfSmith reply explains a lot:

    "I don't know about the Shin variety so I can't add anything there. Reading the catalog description it sound like they are stating it can be firm-ripe and not astringent if left on the tree a long time, not that it is a completely non-astringent variety.

    Scott "

    So Shin is not exactly non-astringent variety, but can be sweet on tree after long time ripening and loosing astrigency. Probably classified as PVNA or PVA group. Not Fuyu or Jiro type.