You might want to post this on the Organic Lawn Forum.

Personally, I think that in an organic program (well, really any program), you should welcome white clover. It provides free nitrogen and it used to be included in nearly all lawn seed mixes.

There aren't any organic broadleaf weed killers. There are a couple of organic options for dealing with weeds (other than the obvious hand pulling).

One is vinegar, which is the organic version of Roundup.

Another is solarization, but that is only used to kill everything in a large area. To solarize an area, water it well when you expect several hot sunny days (I think sunny is more important than hot). Then cover the area with clear plastic to concentrate the sun's rays.

The other is Corn Gluten Meal (CGM) applied as a pre emergent (it will not kill established plants). It should be applied at 20 lbs per 1000 sq ft. It may require several years to reach full effectiveness.

I tried CGM for 3 years..zero..But, keep using it till it works. Maybe 3 years was not too long? No clue.

I don't mind clover so much, for the reason bpgreen stated, but I do like to keep it "in check." Its a nice indicator of low-end-of-the-scale fertility. Fertilization and tall-mown grass beats out clover. When the grass gets thicker and taller it chokes and shades out the clover.

-Jeremy

Ironic uh?

The irony is clover is a sure sign of low nitrogen depleted soils. There is a one size fits all to you question CGM. Corn Meal Gluttien is the highest protein content(nitrogen) and the only organic pre-emrgence known. As others have stated it takes TIME ands has a very limited range in weeds it will control.

Be aware CGM is expensive and difficult to work with. It is a very good fertilzer and so-so pre-emergence IMO.

CGM is expensive is right! Last time I paid like $27 for a 50lb bag that did like 5,000 sq/ft...I like Dimension (pre-m) for $1.25 per ounce (does 1,000 sq/ft)..Clove is Confront approx $1.50 per oz for 1,000 sq/ft

I agree with Texas-weed it is a better fert then pre-m.

"50lb bag that did like 5,000 sq/ft."

I keep reading that CGM is a poor pre emergent, but then I read that people are applying it at rates like this and I think I understand why it is not doing the job for them.

The application rates for CGM to be effective as a pre emergent are a minimum of 20 lbs per 1,000 sq ft, so it would take at least 100 lbs for 5,000 sq ft coverage to get the pre emergent effect.

What I did not tell you is I applied 3 bags in the spring and fall for 3 years in a row on like 5,000. Plus I tried it 5 years ago and my mellon is not that good at the numbers for app.:) I just know if you compare CGM to a chemical, CGM will loose.

IF CGM was so good, lesco/JD, Scotts would be selling it..If you get it too work great, I lost about $400 and my time..

It sounds like you used a lot more than you originally indicated and it was over the recommended amount, so you should have seen some pre emergent effect.

I've always controlled weeds via cultural practices, so I've never used a pre emergent. $0 is much cheaper than $400.

I love white clover in my lawn. I don't know why you would want to get ride of it.

Hello folks. This is my first post, but I have found your comments in all the other forums helpful to a novice such as myself.
I have a serious problem with my soil. Take in mind I don't own the property but would like a nice green lawn. The ground is hard as concrete and even after I have tilled it to a depth of approx. 10" the landlord was able to (easily) drive through it with his truck w/o getting mired up. I have put lime, Scotts starter fertilizer and Milorganite (sp?) on it and let it set for a couple of weeks to let it blend in.
I have Scott's Tall Fescue (supposedly self repairing) and some clover I intend to put down with it.
In addiction, there are seriously sunny spots and seriously shady spots. The sunny dries out very fast and leaves the ground hard so the seed (I planted in sections) doesn't come up or dies shortly thereafter) and an ugly green fungus or moss invades the shady spot.
Is there an aerator product that someone can suggest (that is reasonably priced) that will help with the hard soil and the moss in the moist (shady) areas?
Thank you for your comments and help.

Harry

Im finding herbicidal soaps work much better than vinegar in warm weather, especially for crabgrass. The viscocity of the mixture keeps the product on the leaf surface much longer so there is substantially less run off and consequently less damage to surrounding grass.

Keep in mind however that like vinegar soaps aren't selective and wont kill everything. They will kill most annuals and many perennials but on things like plantain, dandies, and clover you'll only get leaf burn down on a single app. It'll take repeated spraying to kill those weeds outright.

One thing to note with any pre-emergent is whether your weed is an annual or a perennial. Crabgrass is an annual, so this year's weeds will be germinating this year. Clover is a perennial, so clover that is coming back from previous years cannot be prevented with a pre-emergent. Pre-emergents work during the seed germination process.

Deanna

"Is there an aerator product that someone can suggest (that is reasonably priced) that will help with the hard soil and the moss in the moist (shady) areas?"

It sounds like you're asking about one of the liquid "aerators" which are usually surfactants and/or wetting agents. Some examples are Nitron and Aerify. One guy who used to post here frequently would use a soaker hose and let it slowly soak in over the period of a week or so, move to another area, etc, until he covered the entire lawn, then would start the process over again and repeat for a total of three times. His explanation was that it increased the fungal population in the soil. If you search for dchall and soaker hose, you'll probably find a better description of the technique.

If you increase the organic content of the soil, over time, you'll loosen the soil and draw more earthworms. You don't need to till anything into the soil. Just mulch mow your grass all the time and your tree leaves in the fall and use things like ground grains and used coffee grounds for fertilizer.

Dchall's slow soak technique is dubious at best and totally bogus at worst. Moisture, slow soaked or otherwise, in and of itself does nothing to increase fungal or bacterial populations. What Dchall was most likely observing was a previously microbially active soil that had gone relatively dormant. If you don't have soil that is already healthy you can slow soak it till doomsday and exactly nothing will happen if you don't have the approptriate food source.