Empire zoysia is a fine choice if you've completely killed of bermuda. The biggest knockoff is its slow recovery. If something happens, you'll have to live with damaged area for a while while bermuda and st augustine fill in quickly. I personally like coarse bladed zoysia like Empire or Palisades where you can use regular lawn mower at 2-3 inches.

"...Ask me how I know."

Pray tell.

"Pray tell"

Because I did it to my perfectly healthy and thriving bermuda grass 3 years ago and there hasn't been a strand of bermuda in my lawn since. After I killed the lawn, I seeded with a TTTF, which I ultimately didn't care for and killed with Roundup, as well. Now I have Empire zoysia and have no plans of switching again (not to mention my wife is fed up with my grass version of musical chairs and would probably shoot me if I did!)

Anyway, I think the 'mistake' a lot of people make when trying to kill bermuda with Roundup is they buy the Lowes/Home Depot off the shelf bottles. Those have very low percentages of glyophosate (1-2%) and will typically not give the complete kill a lot of people are looking for. Using the low percentage versions for miscellaneous weeds, and less stubborn grasses than bermuda, is typically sufficient. If you're looking to eliminate a bermuda lawn however, you better bring a bigger dog to the fight. RoundUp QuikPro has 70%+ of glyophosate with some Diquat thrown into the mix, as well. It'll annihilate just about anything green and living you spray with it. Within two days of spraying my 1/4 acre bermuda yard with a backpack sprayer, I would estimate I had about 75% kill. Within a week there was nothing left. I did have to spray a second time to pick up some areas of the lawn I missed on the first go round, but that was it. Trust me, I was stunned at its effectiveness. You can't find this stuff in a big box home improvement store, but you can get it online at a number of places. Just google 'RoundUp QuikPro'.

It is possible to kill bermuda, and kill it for good. You just have to know what to use.

Bet the only reason you have not seen the Bermuda comeback is b/c you laid Zoysia which can out compete Bermuda. I use nothing but RU Pro in the biz and Bermuda does come back eventually. However RU Pro or Quick Pro will send home owners in sticker shock. FWIW you would never apply 75%, it has to be diluted to no more than 6%.

I'm familiar with quickpro. Are you using the concentrate or the packets or dry? Are you diluting it? Are you also buying diquat separately and mixing it in?

I noticed that ortho has a consumer product in the store in gallon size bottle (approximately) that are higher than normal % of glyphosate and there is some diquat in there too. Have not tried it yet but bought a couple of bottles. It was actually cheaper than roundup original formula.

Did you use any special method to make sure you got the entire yard when you were spraying?

Yeah you can't nuke bermuda that fast for good. I am converting a bermuda fescue lawn into a St. Augustine and I've sprayed it now 3 times with a 4% rate and the active ingredient is 46% the comercial grade. If I would have sodded instead of plugged I would have been good after 1 spraying if I'd just throw the St Augustine over the dead stuff. I'm plugging and have only a little bermuda left but there will be more to pop later I know you can't stop bermuda. But if it was too cool here for St. Augustine I would have just sprayed once to kill the fescue then fertilized the crap out of the bermuda and would have had a 100% bermuda lawn by the end of summer. I hope to get the St. Augustine off to a good start and it will eventually shade out and choke out the bermuda.

Texas-weed -

I killed the bermuda in the beginning of August a couple of years ago and seeeded with Fescue in early October that same year. For August and September back then, no bermuda came back. It may have eventually, who knows. The zoysia sod is recent and came after a horrible year and a half of living with fescue. But I agree the zoysia would probably have choked out the bermuda. The price on the QuikPro wasn't too bad all things considered. I believe I paid around $15.00 for 5 1.5 oz packets.

Quirky -

The QuikPro already has Diquat in the mix, just under 3% worth. I used a backpack sprayer and mixed 3 1.5 oz packets in 4 gallons of water. Don't know what the percentage of AI would be after the dilution, though certainly not the 73% indicated on the package. I forgot to mention I also used about 4 liquid ounces of Fusilade II in the sprayer. Now that stuff is kind of expensive!

I didn't do anything special when I was spraying the grass. My yard is fairly rectangular and I just kind of grided it off mentally by using trees/bushes and the house as landmarks. Basically, I turned the lawn into a series of squares and methodically went around the yard. Also, when I was spraying I swear I could see very slight discoloration within a matter of minutes on the grass and that helped me keep track of where I had been a little bit easier.

atlmotodude I don't doubt you one bit. RU Pro and RU Quick Pro is a better product than what people buy, but only because it can be mixed at higher concentrations.

In my Son's Lanscaping mix we use a dry granular version of glyphosphate plus one additonal herbicide with a wetting agent and dye. The 40-pound buckets run around 200 dollars. The RoundUp Pro Dry in 7-pound jugs I see in stores runs around $100 retail around here. It will kill off all the Bermuda in short order and last for at least a year, maybe two.

I suspect your sucess was based on the timing, late in the year, and getting a lawn down. Congrads. I do believe if you had stuck with Fescue,Bermuda would have crept back in your life sooner or later.

I hate to tell you this stephen but I've seen bermuda totally ravage st.aug in a very short period of time. You may need to keep it at bay with fusilade or one of those things to suppress the bermuda. And where I saw this was in Florida where conditions probably favor st. augustine just a little bit more than bermuda. I'm not arguing, I'm just saying that I would actually tend to give a cool season grass a better chance in north georgia as at least the cool season grasses are actively growing for more of the year and able to thicken up while bermuda is dormant even if the tables are turned by the time july rolls around.

But thanks for chiming in with the details on the quickpro. I will try that. The liquid is expensive the quick pro dry in the packets is not that expensive. Certainly not much more than 7 applications of roundup consumer not to mention the time.

Thank you for your input and I think it's going to be a trial an error thing. Since I'm getting the St. Augustine for free all it will hurt is how my yard looks. At my father's house he had some bermuda in his St. Augustine yard and he mows it at 3 inches. Never fertilizes it or waters it. Over several years the St. Augustine took over the little bit of Bermuda. I'll try to keep everyone intrested posted on the progress and if it works.

By the way you mixed me up with someone else. I'm located in coastal Virginia where the winters are not too bad and the summers are hot and humid. Fescue lawns here do not look well for the most part. You might find 1 in every 10 looking good but that's about it. We have problems with diseases because of the humid nights. There are times when the nights only go down to 80 in July and the humidity stays near 90%. That's why I'm sticking with warm season grasses. I won't have to aerify and re-seed every fall like everyone around here does that has fescue.

SA in VA? Isn't, that north of GA?

And if I had miserable humid and hot weather like that I'd have a warm season grass too. It didn't even get out of 60's here today. This is my kind of weather. I'm sure by tomorrow it will be gone though.

That wasn't a mistake you can indeed grow SA very well in coastal Virginia zone 8. I took some pictures of mine if you didn't believe me but I'm not an expert with computers and don't know how to get it onto a message here. I know how to e mail the pictures.

We believe you.

Or at least I do. Z8 is z8. The grass doesn't know where the state lines are.

I used a cheap generic brand of RU at high concentration. I used a double dose of what the bottle recommended... Bermuda was thriving after I've given them their favorite food (ironically it was one of best looking lawns in my neighborhood but I digress...).. that's when I nuked them with RU. It took me 3 or 4 tries to kill them off completely. I probably could have done better with color dye because I apparently missed several area first time. I have 2 very small patches of bermuda that came back from dead. I guess I'll paint them with RU eventually. Another patch is coming in from next door but i could care less. I'm planting another tree, probably a understory small tree in that spot for more shade. My st augustine is so thick at this time. People were always surprise whenever they walk on my front yard. They're always saying "wow that is THICK!" :) Might as well grow st augustine with 9 trees around the house for shade from the sun during the summer while rest of my neighborhood suffer with one tree or no trees on their lots...

St. Augustine grass in Virginia??? I have never seen one here in Central North Carolina... If in fact you are telling the truth, that grass is SO far out of its adaptation range I can even begin to describe it.

St. Augustine is a Florida grass, tropical weather, hot and humid year round. No such a thing as freezing. If you are growing St. Augustine in Virginia, you know you are taking a risk of having your entire lawn winter killed. One hard freeze (very common in VA) or one normal VA winter, and it's GONE. Bermudagrass is MUCH more cold tolerant than St. Augustine, and despite that, if soil freezes below 2 inches, bermudagrass can easily be killed.

Growing St. Augustine grass in Virginia is like growing Kentucky Bluegrass in South Florida...

Two words: GOOD LUCK

auteck,

You really need to brush up on your turfgrass knowledge here's an article from.
http://www.landscape-america.com/grasses/raleigh.html

Raleigh grass is a cold-hardy cultivar released by North Carolina State University in 1980. It was well received by sod growers throughout the southeast, but, unfortunately, little university research has been done to date on this cultivar. It is often described as highly tolerant of shade, drought, and cold, but no impartial evidence of these claims exists at this time.

Now if they developed this at NC state which is much cooler than Va beach due to the ocean's ability to keep us 10 degrees warmer in the winter. Then it can certainly grow here. I know SA can withstand temperatures down to 5 degrees without dying out because there are plenty of lawns here still thriving today after we hit 5 degrees back in 1993. Typically our low is around 10 to 15 at the worst.

Stephen9, my SA in VA cooment was poking some fun at QQ, I know SA can grow in VA Beach region.

^^^Apparently auteck doesn't. It takes some 'nads to question if someone is telling the truth.

NC State researches grasses from all over the country, even Buffalo grass. It doen't translate into you can grow it here or there, or it's best adapted to the area. You know St. Augustine is WAY out its adaptation range, and nobody can argue that.

There are many reasons why Fescue DOMINATES the landscape in the Transition zone.

It's beyond believe that anybody in the Transition zone will want to grow such an ugly grass as their home lawn. Some times people want what they can't have.

I've read people on this forum that will love to grow fescue or bluegrass in Florida, so each its own.

St. Augustine is nothing more than a cultured weed, not to mention it resembles crabgrass quite well...

Woooo Auteck!

Ease up there buddy! I don't think there's any reason to imply Stephen9 is not being truthful.

And as for St. Augustine, I don't think I've ever seen it. But I guess one lawn nut's grass is another lawn nut's weed.

'Can't we all just get along?'

St. Frankenstein may not be the prettiest grass around but it does have some things going for it. For starters, It's native to the US. With the exception of hawaii, it doesn't seem to be demonstrating invasive tendencies. It doesn't require synthetic fertilizers in it's areas of adaptation, it's long lived yet it's possible to kill it. And it doesn't require mowing quite as frequently. Although it does creep into garden beds I'd think in an area where it goes dormant for a while this wouldn't be too bad. It is the most traffic tolerant grass I've ever seen. When I lived in FL there was a guy in the hood with a meticulously cared for lawn and he regularly parked his boat trailer on that grass and drove his dually on it and you could never tell.
If they could just develop a dwarf with dark green color and finer blades it would be great. I for one think it could probably be experimented with more in coastal VA. That place gets so flippin hot and humid I don't know how you could keep any cool season grass alive in that. I'm all for experimentation. I think we can all agree there is much worse grass out there such as bahia and centiweede.
I doubt in VA it is overplanted sod that cheap builders get from greedy sod growers that is high maintenance and looks like poo for most of the year.

I wasn't aware that SA was/is a US native, I always thought Buffalo grass was the only one...?

Quirky, I couldn't agree with you more on SA traffic tolerance. I too remember parking my cars and friends wheneven they came over on the lawn, and there were never any marks. I guess is hard to kill a weed;-)

I rate grasses in the following order:

Warm season:

1- Legacy Buffalograss
2- Emerald Zoysia
3- Princess 77 Bermuda or Hybrid
4- Centipede Tif
5- Bahiagrass
6- St. Augustine

Cool season:

1- Bentgrass
2- Bluegrass
3- Perennial Ryegrass
4- Fine Fescue
5- TTT Fescue

Transition zone:

I like that auteck your doing some research Buffalo grass is the only native grass to the US. Other grasses have been adapted to this country.

Everyone has different taste. Of the warm season grasses I've got St. Augustine on top for over all perfermance. Looks I'd have put it at two behind Zoysia. Zoysia is just too slow. Some of the newer varieties are looking better such as bitter blue St Augustine.

Nc State does research grass from all over the country but realize Raleigh is where NC State is. The variety is called Raleigh St. Augustine. You think maybe NC state may have developed it? They sure did and they have to be able to grow it in field conditions for years. I forgot how long it takes to get a named variety but they can't use a lab to grow this. Did I also mention that I like SA because of it's shade tolerence? Look at your list of warm season grasses and tell me how many of those can handle shade.

Auteck, where did you find that map? I think it is interesting that Charlotte, where I've seen beautiful cool season lawns is in the pink. Oak Island, where I live, and Bald Head Island would be located in the blue (transition). I have experimented with tall fescue, fine fescue, KBD and creeping red with no (zero) luck. In fact, I have never seen a cool season grass down here.

My theory is that when coupled with the temps here they just can't survive in the sandy soil we have..... and much like VA Beach has.

auteck, you got a long way to go. It is good you are trying to learn, but a long way to go before you can give good reliable advice.

Stephen9,

Yes, SA has the best shade tolerance of all the warm season grasses, Zoysia is second best. However, I totally dislike the looks. I've seen Raleigh SA in person, and it does look better than the standard stuff they grow in Florida. Bitter Blue has a beautiful color and not as coarse, but still SA. I don't know the details on the the Raleigh SA formation, but I can tell you for sure that I've never seen a SA lawn up here in Raleigh - not even in the shade. Fine fescue is used for shady areas, or tall fescue. Almost every website I've seen shows poor cold and drought tolerance. NC State recommends fescue for NC.

heelsfan,

Charlotte looks to be border line, and remember that mother nature is not black and white. So imagine that line between southern grasses and the transition zone to fluctuate a little bit on any giving year.

Bentgrass grows here on almost 100% sandy soil, and survives our summers with proper care.

Perennial Ryegrass has been tested in golf courses in Southern California where the average temperature is 102F, and survive.

Cool season grasses, fescue or bluegrass, can grow in your neck of the woods with the proper care.

If you are not willing to do what's necessary to keep a cool season grass alive during the summer, then I suggest you put down Bermuda Princess 77 with Turf-Type Perennial Ryegrass. You'll have beautiful lawn with normal effort.

texas-weed,

Do you claim to know it all? I'll challenge you ANY TIME. I don't claim to know it all when it comes to turfgrass, but I can assure you that every word I have written in this forum is accurate. Otherwise, prove me wrong if you can.

Besides, anyone can grow weeds so what makes you so knowledgeable?

Read well and Inform yourself first before making comments like that toward other members.

I don't live in North carolina so I don't know but this is another article that backs my statements.

Raleigh

St. Augustine grass is a fast growing grass that has a medium to dark green color and coarse leaf texture. With proper maintenance, it will provide a dense, lush cover for a turf lawn. As a warm-season grass, it is best adapted to warm humid areas that are not exposed to excessive or intense periods of cold weather. The "Raleigh" variety has the best cold tolerance and seems best suited for North Carolina's eastern piedmont and coastal plains regions.
http://www.ncturfgrass.com/st_augustine.asp

Notice how it mentions N.C. eastern piedmont. Correct me if I'm wrong because I don't know but isn't Raleigh in the Eastern piedmont? But the bottom line is from earlier statements SA is available and does grow as mentioned in NC. I imagine SC as well as Va on top of it's original adaptation.

Besides, anyone can grow weeds so what makes you so knowledgeable?

Auteck,

You haven't been around this forum long enough to know the answer to your question.

Texas-weed runs a sod farm. I think that would qualify his remarks as fairly expert (especially pertaining to warm season grasses). Certainly, I would give him the benefit of the doubt over any of us "hobbyists."

You'd be surprised by the number of real experts we have here on this board. I won't post his id here, but I know of another contributor to this forum who worked at Turf-seed Inc.

This isn't the Scott's forum where you basically have a bunch of folks passing around bad advice to one another. I'd give Texas-weed the benefit of the doubt on this.

It's not about pride in being right, it's about learning from folks who make their living doing this sort of stuff.

Hey I don't know what cracksmoker drew up that map but it puts me the in tropical swampgrass zone and this is definitely not the tropical swampgrass zone.

This place is like antarctica. If it's tough to grow grass here it's because the permafrost hasn't melted yet.

I'm going to go get a sweater it's so cold.

"If you are not willing to do what's necessary to keep a cool season grass alive during the summer, then I suggest you put down Bermuda Princess 77 with Turf-Type Perennial Ryegrass. You'll have beautiful lawn with normal effort. "

Buddy, believe me. I tried everything.

Stephen, Raleigh is probably borderline Eastern/Central Piedmont. The coastal Plain starts not far from Raleigh. Your NC geography knowledge isn't too shabby (or either you have a good map). ;)

Hey I don't know what cracksmoker drew up that map but it puts me the in tropical swampgrass zone and this is definitely not the tropical swampgrass zone.

Quirky,

Based on the domain of the hosting site for that map, I'd say it was Lowes (the box store). Here's the url to the map:

http://images.lowes.com/general/g/grassmap_seed.gif

Engage smarmy comment mode:

Yet another reason not to buy your grass seed from a box store...

disengage smarmy comment mode

Thanks heelsfan. If your from Carolina as your user name may suggest then I'm your northern neighbor so I'm not going to take much credit for my geography. I see Raleigh on my local radar. Off topic I'm a big Tarheels fan myself.

If you are not willing to do what's necessary to keep a cool season grass alive during the summer, then I suggest you put down Bermuda Princess 77 with Turf-Type Perennial Ryegrass. You'll have beautiful lawn with normal effort.

I rest my case.

Personally I and other sod farmers like the American Horticultural Society Plant Heat Zone Map. It is the exact opposite of the USDA Plant Hardiness Map.

If intersted go to:

http://www.ahs.org/pdfs/05_heat_map.pdf

The lowes by me sells KBG so I guess they don't even believe their own map.

That AHS heat zone map looks like an accurate map. I would refer to that. Although I'm not so sure that makes a strong case for stephen9 since it shows coastal va as the same zone as here in Antarctica.

There are many maps and you have to go by history. I've tracked over 20 years and maybe I'm a stats nerd but This is the most accurate which is zone 8a. Notice the very bottom corner of virginia on this map. I grow plants listed for zone 8 all day. Plants labeled for zone 7 struggle here. By the way why are you calling zone 7b which I guess you are referring to antartica?

Here is a link that might be useful: hardiness map of virginia

I live 40 miles north of Atlantarctica, GA.
I don't have any faith in the cold hardiness map system thus I just call it what I truly believe it is; the twilight zone.
I think in protected locations you can grow just about anything here. Whether you prefer to grow hardy banana, palms and st. Frankensteingrass or Bog birch, KBG and balsam fir. We will probably never come close to seeing 5-10 degrees here but if so I don't think that would kill off the warm season grass unless those temps were there for a while. Maybe a whole day.

quirkyquercus,

Warm season grass is much more hardy then people are talking about. I saw auteck say if the soil freezes down 2 inches it can easily kill bermuda. I'm sure where your at you've seen that. Have you lost bermuda from that type of cold weather? In 1993 we had a day when the high was 12 and the low was 5 not near the norm for here but none of the warm season grasses were harmed. In 1996, we had an ice storm put down a solid sheet of ice and 7 inches of snow fell on top of that, then to top it off we stayed below freezing for 7 days. All the warm season grasses are still thriving here today. These examples are certainly the extremes but it goes to show you how versitle warm season grasses are. As the zone hardiness of 8a is mentioned for my location it's only an average minimum low which I can tell you in the past 30 years we have had only been below the minimum 7 seasons and I can name at least 5 out of the last 10 winters where are minimum would have even put us in zone 9a. So zone maps are just a guide.

I've not seen it get below 15 or 16 here and those temps are extremely rare. I only remember experiencing that here about 3 times over the past 10 years. The warm season grass is definitely still around unfortunately.
Absense of super cold weather doesn't make the grass a great choice for the area. The growing season for warm season grass here is still annoyingly short. The greening up and slowing down periods coupled with the droughts in the summer, it's just pointless to use it where I am but some people prefer not to have to mow all the time and dormant warm season grass is a good match for those types of people.

My next door neighbor only mowed their bermuda 3 times last year. So far this year it's happened once. It looks just as good any anyone elses using rotary mowers at 2" once a week. Definitely not optimal but it prevents a mudslide.

Well in the case those people have brown thumbs but growing warm season grasses is not for brown thumbs only. It sounds like your neighbor doesn't use nitrogen. Bermuda is a heavy feeder, up to 6 pounds a year in this part of the country. Here we mow our bermuda weekly at the least. As a matter of fact we just discussed at the golf course to stepping it up to twice a week because of the way it's growing now. Maybe also that is why we get more out of bermuda then your neighbors because we have green bermuda from the first of April until Late November even December. Maybe for some people that's not enough but for me Dec. - Mar. I don't care about green grass. Plus I can go out with round up in January and clean up poa annua a major turf weed on golf courses and it doesn't hurt the bermuda do to it being dormant.

That neighbor uses a lawn sprayer company.

My point is most people aren't out there fertilizing once a month and mowing 2 or 3 times a week with a reel mower. Or even once a week. Most people don't know how to or have any interest in doing this type of home maintenance so they hire a lawn spraying company which compounds the problem then they just lose all hope and assume it isn't possible for them to have a green lawn.

I've established there is a need for a grass that would perform better than bermuda with less maintenance and not give the entire area a brownish and depressing aura to it for most of the year instead of a green and living feeling and I'm on a quest to figure out exactly what that grass is.

I have bermuda as my front lawn, and the back is awful. I moved into new construction and decided to do the back myself. Had a guy come out and plant some fescue that did not seen to take root due to run off. That was 2 years ago. I have weeds now and plenty of bare spots. Too embarrased to send a pic of it. HELP. I want to plant something easy in the back. I saw the pics of the Perennial Ryegrass and heard about KBG. Any suggestions.

Terri

Terri if the backyard is not shady wait till the End of May and seed Bermuda. Otherwise wait till fall and seed with a cool season grass.

I agree that Bermuda is NOT low maintainence - St. A is as easy as it gets (mow high, water once a week, and fertilize when yellowing). Bermuda needs more mowing, and definately more bed pullin'. I am not sure why anyone would want to mow 12 months a year - I enjoy the break from December to March...

i realise this is off-topic but, @auteck (or anyone that can answer), how did u get that nice border between your lawn and the sidewalk in that first pic u posted..? and how is ur lawn actually above the level of the sidewalk..?

shir0, I don't understand your question... What nice border between the land and sidewalk?

As far as the lawn not being level with the sidewalk, before I seeded the area, the soild was perfectily leveled with the sidewalk/concrete surface, then the grass grow to about 4 inches, cut it back to 3" and that's what you get. A lawn wall that's 3 inches high. That's during the summer, during the winter I mow it down to 1.5" briging the wall down much closer to the hight of the sidewalk.

I actually do not like the lawn wall, I preffer it to be even with the concrete/sidewalk after mowing down to 1.5" during the winter, and just above grown during the summer (3 inches)

Does that answer your second question?

@auteck, thxxx~ i think that answers my second question.. my first question was with respect to that small gap u have between the lawn and the sidewalk, and how u made/maintain it..