How much shade are we talking bout? If you get 3-4 hours of full sunlight, look at Zorro Zoysia. They are fine bladed almost similiar to bermuda and i think it has the best shade tolerance of all zoysia varieties at the moment.

I will try to help, but need to ask a few questions myself.

Should I sprig Zoysia in the shady areas? Will that work? How much shade will zoysia take? If not zoysia, then what?

It is a good idea, but how many hours of direct sun light does this area receive? You are going to need at 4 to 6 hours to pull it off; otherwise a shade garden should be considered. The best choices for shade tolerance in order are:

Matrella
El Toro
Diamond
Belaire
Cavalier
Meyer
Emerald

Another possibility is Saint Augustine. However is much coarser grass that requires to be grow much taller with different maintenance requirements. IMO is looks very strange against Bermuda, like a transvestite in a cowboy bar.

I don't want anything to creep into my nice sunny fab-looking Bermuda lawn!!!

DonÂt worry no grass on earth can take over Bermuda if cared for properly in full sun.

Felder Rushing said don't use round-up to kill lawn weeds. OK, so what do I use. I've got that awful, I can't stand it, chick weed. I pull up handfulls of it all the time. Sick to death of it. That, and some kind of fescue that is near impossible to dig up or kill, even with round-up. I have the weed problem in shady dry areas where Bermuda thins.
OK, I do not understand this statement and/or question. If you are going to replant this area with Zoysia, then by all means nuke it with RU to prepare the area for planting. However if you mean a selective post mergence herbicide then a combination product containing MSMA, 2,4-D, and Dicamba does the trick, something like Trimec. However using a post-mergence product now is probably too late in the year because of the high-temps of summer, if it is too warm it will kill the Bermuda also. So you may be in a pickle for now unless you are preparing a seed bed.
So here is what I suggest. Answer the questions I asked. If the area gets at least 4 to 6 hours of sunlight, and you want to plant Zoysia, mix a cocktail of RU and Trimec, and nuke the area. Then loosen up the soil after a couple of weeks, add some admendments and starte fertilizer, then sprig or sod it with Zoysia.

Good Luck

TW

It is very hard to estimate how much sun this thinning area gets in my back yard! I'd say more like 4 hours direct sun, plus dappled sun or shade at other times.

I don't know what Felder Rushing is talking about when he says don't use round-up on lawn weeds. Unfortunately, he didn't bother to say why. I didn't mean clearing a bed for zoysia when I mentioned this. I meant getting rid of the darn chickweed in a few other areas, mostly in the backyard which tends to be shadier. Bermuda grows well in part of backyard but chickweed likes to spread up from the thinning area. Chickweed has got to be my most hated weed!

Another thing that confuses me while we're on the subject. Everyone I asked (sometime ago) on this forum said NOT to use organic fertilizers on Bermuda. Bermuda required heavy feeding with high nitrogen fertilizer, and organic just didn't cut it.

I told this to the lady in the nursery but she talked me into the organic anyway. Said high nitrogen would hurt my earthworms. My lawn has never, I mean, never looked this good. I am amazed. Talking about the front and side yard, not my Bermuda thinning back yard.

Thanks so much for your expert help!
Michele_1

It's the salt in chemical fertilizers that drives earthworms away. Soybean meal is sufficient to keep bermuda happy. Apply every month during growing season for best look.

I don't know where Texas Weed came up with the list of zoysia cultivar for shade tolerance but Zorro is better than the ones listed by Texas Weed.

SHADE TOLERANCE

"Zoysiagrass, is a "C4" species, and generally demonstrates fair to good tolerance to low light conditions. However, low light tolerance appears to be under genetic control. In a study undertaken to identify the relative low light tolerance of 26 Zoysia genotypes and cultivars, Zorro ranked fourth out of 26 entries while Emerald ranked 6.5. Only one commercial variety ÂDiamondÂ, ranked better than Zorro. In contrast, the commercial standard, Meyer/Z52, ranked 21st among the entries. The study was conducted under live oak tree shade with incoming radiation measured at approximately 10% of full sunlight. Assessment of plant performance was based on density, texture, color, percent green cover and percent turf cover. The 49 observations were taken over a 4-yr period."

Lou I ranked them in order from best to worst. In that short list Toro is second.

What's your beef?

My short list is pretty much in line with what you copy and pasted.

Michelle,

Bermuda can be grown nicely with organics; it just takes a lot of time to get it too work, and depends on what organic product you use.

I always recommend an organic/synthetic product called slow release urea. You get the best of both worlds. If you really want organics use Soy Bean Meal from feed stores. Applied at 15-pounds per 1000/ft2 every 30 to 45 days. Just be aware any organic program is going to be a lot more expensive of at least twice the cost on square footage basis. Using a quality slow release urea runs about 75-cents to $14 per 1000/ft2 while soybean meal is the least expensive organic runs around $2.25 and higher for 1000/ft2. With the ethanol scam going around the grains are skyrocketing.

You might get better exposure and more replies to your question if it is not addressed to a specific member. The roundup kills or stuns everything it is not a selective herbicide. Bermuda thins out towards the end of the summer in deep shade but in my own observations it doesn't die. It comes in thick every year then thins out as the growing season goes on. Only in the rootzone of mature trees with shallow roots competing with the grass for water and nutrients do I see a total wipeout of bermuda. If you plant zoysia, it will probably turn out to be a mix of both types of grassses so if that's not what you want maybe planting some shade plants there is a better strategy.

The problem with oragnics and bermuda is that it takes a lot of that grain to equal the greening power of just one $8 bag of turfbuilder and it takes longer to see a result. To make matters worse if you are not in texas or some other agricultural area then you will have a hard time finding the grains or you will release many more carbon emissions trying to get them that you would had you just gone to home depot and bought the turfbuilder. You also have to really like heavy lifting. Using organic fertilizer does not cancel out the ecological damage caused by cultivating bermuda, no offense, and big smile, have a nice day.

No offense taken. This is one of the most informative list of answers I've gotten on the garden web.

My solution is to sprig zorro zoysia (if I can find it) in the sunnier areas, and plant a part-shade ground cover in the shadier areas.

About organic fertilizer for Bermuda. Quirky - What damage does cultivating Bermuda do?

As far as addressing the post to Texas Weed, my first post on the same subject yielded no answers other than to post directly to Texas Weed. It worked.

Thank you all and Texas Weed!
Michele_1

"What damage does cultivating Bermuda do?"

Bermuda is immortal. It never dies.

What if humans lived forever just multiplying and multiplying?
When people want something that looks better with less maintenance required it's too late. They're stuck.

What damage does cultivating Bermuda do?

None, been doing it for 20 years on a sod farm. Only damage I have seen is blisters, wrenched backs, worn out drive belts, and about 8 tractors down the tubes. Oh yea, seen a few bank accounts wiped out in my favor hauling the stuff off.

Good luck finding any kind of Zoysia sprigs, not something you can find for sale at the retail level. What you might do though is find plugs, but it will be very expensive. Otherwise buy a pallet and make your own plugs or sprigs.

You might have to put down sod. i've never heard of anyone spriging zoysia. It just doesn't fill in as fast as bermuda.

Texas weed smoker - Toro has wider bladed than bermuda... I should know. I lived with it for years. They look nothing alike... I ve seen zorro in person and they're about as fine bladed as bermuda so they blend in better than Toro...

Bermuda will never go away unfortunately. In my opinion, bermuda should never be used for small-medium sized residence lots. They are too agressive and they just take over everything. Just too much work... significantly more work than st augustine. Floratam st augustine has nearly same drought tolerant as bermuda anyway. it can go 60 days without rain and 90% will be still alive by far the best for st augustine. Unfortunately, it has weak cold tolerance.

it can go 60 days without rain and 90% will be still alive by far the best for st augustine.

LOL

What have you been smoking?

St. Augustine is not recommended for us in N. MS, but it's grown in the lower South. I wanted Zoysia, but the builder had a good deal on Bermuda sod. The Zoysia would have cost more than twice as much, this is an acre and a half of sod, so I just didn't need the extra expence at that time. Moving to a new place is expensive!

The Bermuda is invading my flower beds, and I have many of them. I bird and butterfly garden. I've done just about everything I can think of to defeat it. It's winning! And it's the toughest stuff to pull out of all weeds! I've smohered it with newspaper, ringed all beds with round-up, pulled and pulled and pulled!

Send the cold and rain our way please!!! We are suffering the worst drought on record. We had a drought in spring, which is unheard of in this area. Spring and fall are supposed to be wet. And now we're headed into July an August.

My water bill was three hundred dollars, which is a lot for me. Looking into getting rain barrels (no chlorine in the water better for plants, too, and frogs!!!). The thing is to be of any use I'd have to have about 8 of them. We use a tremendous amount of water in the summer.

Thanks for all the helpful answers.
Michele_1

Re: Floratam

Hardiest Grasses

Some grasses are tougher than others. A study of turf grasses showed some varieties recovered well with 60 days of care with no water. The San Antonio Water System will update its list of approved grasses for new development after consulting this week with researchers.

Variety % Recovery Uniformity*

Celebration Bermuda 100.0% 9.00

Grimes EXP Bermuda 100.0 9.00

Common Bermuda 98.8 9.00

GN1 Bermuda 98.8 9.00

Tifway 419 Bermuda 98.8 9.00

Tex Turf Bermuda 97.5 9.00

TifSport Bermuda 97.5 9.00

Buffalo Grass 95.0 9.00

Floratam St. Augustine 88.8 8.50

Empire Zoysia 71.3 8.50

Palisades Zoysia 71.3 8.50

Jamur Zoysia 68.8 8.25

El Toro Zoysia 62.5 8.50

Premier Bermuda 57.5 7.25

Common St. Augustine 55.0 6.00

Palmetto St. Augustine 51.3 4.75

Amerishade St. Augustine 42.5 4.50

Delmar St. Augustine 37.5 4.75

Cavalier Zoysia 27.5 6.75

Raleigh St. Augustine 25.0 4.50

Emerald Zoysia 25.0 7.25

Sapphire St. Augustine 17.5 3.00

Zeon Zoysia 17.5 6.75

Zorro Zoysia 15.0 6.00

Y-2 Zoysia 4.3 3.00
===============================
* Measure from 1 to 9 of how widespread growth is.

Source: Texas A&M University*s Cooperative Extension

See Texas Weed... I did my homework unlike you. Stick to what you do best which is growing devil's grass.

Well Lou if I read the above data correctly there is only one SA that can recover from drought which is Floramtam @ 88%, not near as good as any Bermuda. The next one down the list is Common SA @ 55% recovery which is not very good IMO. From there is gets ugly.

FWIW I do grow and sell SA, just not a large demand for it in North TX because it can and will be frozen out north of DFW.

What is with all the animosity? Everyone has their own opinions on what works best for them. Just provide the data and let people decide for themselves.

I think 88% recovery for any type of St Augustine is pretty good and its no surprise that bermuda grass is better in that regard.

Yikes, this thread took an ugly turn. As to the orginal question, you can sod Zoysia or St Aug in the shade. The St Aug doesn't tend to play nicely with other grasses though and will possibly creep out into the bermuda.

88% for any grass is a great survival rate in that test. With an aggressively spreading grass like St Aug or Bermuda, that you fill in and be back to 100% within a few weeks of good conditions.

Builders always get a good deal on Bermierda. Why is that?
Because it costs nil to produce? Home builders love it. They set it down atop a heap of compacted clay and construction debris and never return and the stuff grows on it. If I was a cheap and greedy builder you bet I'd plant bermierda at every one of my houses I built. If I built homes in chicago I'd have it shipped in.

You'll probably be happier with zoysia if it's not too late. I remember seeing seedland.com selling plugs