KBG chance of success is pretty slim in Birmingham, not impossible, but chances are pretty small

If I were you, I'd just block off half my yard at a time from the dog and seed that. When it is mature, seed the other half and keep the dog off the newly seeded area. Making sod indoors for a yard would be hard, costly, and nearly impossible.

Somebody (I think it was Morpheuspa) planted some "plugs" of grass to put in areas that didn't do well in his seeding. I think he had pretty good results. I tried it with plug trays, but didn't have good results. I think I used "potting soil" that was on sale because it wasn't any good, and also the plugs were too shallow, so the grass that sprouted died soon after.

"KBG chance of success is pretty slim in Birmingham, not impossible, but chances are pretty small"

Since when do you give advise on cool season grasses? Last time I checked you live in Dallas, TX, and run a sod farm that grows "warm season" grasses.

Your assessment of KBG is plain wrong. KBG will grow in Birmingham with the proper care. Birmingham's average summer temperature equals that of St. Louis, MO, where KBG is found every where. Winter temperatures in Birmingham suggest that KBG will have a longer winter growing season than most areas where it's grown.

jimmygiii, the biggest negative factor in Birmingham right now is the persistant drought. That could take a toll on any grass and KBG will be no exception.

Sun exposure and soil texture are also very important when growing KBG in the mid to upper south. Northern and Eastern sun exposures are the preffer locations for cool season grasses in the south.

If you really like KBG and you are willing to care of it, then you can grow it. Be sure you buy Elite KBG sod quality seeds.

Since when do you give advise on cool season grasses? Last time I checked you live in Dallas, TX, and run a sod farm that grows "warm season" grasses.
Your assessment of KBG is plain wrong. KBG will grow in Birmingham with the proper care.

You certainly got me there, I am certainly a sod farmer in the DFW region who grows nothing but warm season turf grass, but that doesnÂt mean I donÂt know squat about cool season grasses and the regions they grow in

Anyway rather than take my word for it, or anyone else, you can go to the Alabama Cooperative Extension Web Site and see what they have to say. Printed in plain English is: "Tall fescue is the only cool-season turfgrass that is recommended for home lawns in Alabama," or look at the tables and note KGB is not on the list.

Texas-weed, due to the fact that you make your living selling sod, I have to discount your statements regarding cool season grasses. That's like asking a dairy farmer his opinion on soy milk, or a Chevy man his opinion on a Ford Mustang, or a gay man his opinion on...well you get the picture.

My experience with cool season grasses since Fall of 2006 has proven to me that they do grow here. I planted Rebel Exeda TTTF in the backyard in Fall of 06 on fill dirt with the expectation that it would die in the summer and then I'd go buy Zoysia sod. By June 1, 07, we were on water restrictions, so I did not water the TTTF until Sept 14, 07 (that's the day I overseeded with Scott's HTB). The TTTF went dormant for most of the summer. Once we got some rain in middle of August, it greened back up and started growing again!

In my opinion, the TTTF outperformed the St Augustine in my front yard. The TTTF went dormant and survived, whereas, the St Augustine started to wilt after 2+ weeks without rain, and without supplemental watering, very little would have recovered. At which point, had I believed that cool season grasses don't grow here, I would've headed over to the local sod farm and bought some more sod!

Golf courses even further south in Montgomery have bent grass greens, which are cool season grasses.

I think that the "cool season grasses don't grow here" mantra is a conspiracy to keep sod farmers in business.

Jimmy, I think you need to reread what TW said. You used as evidence that he was wrong your experiences with TTTF. If you read his post, you'll see that he quoted the Alabama extension service saying that Tall fescue will grow there. If he says that tall fescue will grow there, telling him that tall fescue grows there shows that he was right, not that he was wrong.

I don't see how his selling sod makes him unqualified to know about grass. It seems to me that it would make him well qualified. If you meant to say warm season sod instead of just sod, that would make a little difference, but your analogies fail. It would be more like asking a dairy farmer a question about beef than about soy milk, since dairy cattle are lean and aren't usually used for beef.

When I originally posted my question, I considered leaving my location out of the equation as to avoid any comments regarding the viability of TTTF or KBG in Alabama. I am not a product of Alabama's public school system, whose motto is "Thank God for Mississippi," so I do realize that KBG is not recommended here. FYI, the joke is that our public schools are ranked 49th and Mississippi's are ranked 50th.

I am interested in starting KBG from seed indoors and then moving it outdoors. I have thought of doing a small trial first, in something small like a kitty litter box. If that is succesfull, then I would consider making some germination/planter boxes out of 2x4s. Maybe 2' wide x 4' long, when it's time to move the KBG outdoors, just roll it up, carry it out, and lay it down.

Any advice or thoughts on this are appreciated.
Advice or thoughts on the impending doom of KBG in Alabama are not.

Now that we understand the rules for responses, we can reply appropriately.

As I understand it, the rules are basically that you only want responses that agree with your approach.

I'll now tailor my response to fit within your rules.

Your plan is excellent. It will do everything you want.

Not to mention that Texas-Weed has been a valued contributor here for several years: always willing to help someone out, from what I've observed. I, for one, look forward to his insight on a variety of subjects. Dismissing his observation out of hand might just be your second mistake: the first one was claiming that KBG can be grown (I assume 'successfully' was implied, and that 'over time' was implied) in B'ham Alabama.

You're not dealing with 'average' temps, nor 'average' drought: I suppose you'd also have to throw 'average' care in there somewhere, which from time to time includes a little 'average' neglect. I suspect that the University, and Texas-Weed, are correct, and that on the whole, it's just not a good idea.

But go ahead, quibble a bit. If one more devoted than the average homeowner can get the KBG on the ground, and get it growing, fine. Fine for this year. But I'm reminded of a famous football coach, (who was ALSO from Texas), who didn't like to pass the ball. He said 'When you throw the football, three things can happen, and two of them are bad".

I think once you get your KBG sprouted in Alabama, over the next ten years, some things are going to happen. Hellacious temperatures, and significant drought, and that KBG is going to take a beating, and might not survive. Which means, of course, start over from there.

Good luck with it.

First of all, when it comes to free advice, you have two options, take it or leave it. Complaining about it or attacking it simply reflects a poor understanding of "free".

Dissing free advice because it comes from someone who doesn't grow a certain grass for a living knocks out about 99% of the advice given on this forum, I suspect.

As for advice on things you don't have great experience with a certain grass goes, if I am not mistaken Auteck (could be wrong, I don't keep notes on that kind of thing) was a proponent of folks maybe planting 100% Perennial rye about this time last year after his experience with it the year before. I suggested from my experience over several years it was great in spring and fall but browned out too much in the heat to be the best option full time in yards where it got hot/dry much. We never did get pics of how that p rye looked in the hot months. Nor have I seen any more suggestions for a 100% p rye yard.

All in all, its kind of amusing how we often seem to intentionally say something to stir up some emotions just to have a debate to join in. I'm pretty sure I've been guilt of that a time or two.

One thing is for sure, I enjoy all the posters who have chimed in on this thread.

rcnaylor,

I don't disagree with all of your comments, however, texas weed's advice on a cool season grass is probably not the best advice jimmigii can get. As I pointed out, he lives in Texas and grows warm season grasses, not KBG which is what jimmigii is inquiring about. He admited that himself as you can see.

On another note, I did note on other posts last year about the progress of my perennial ryegrass experiment. I never made an offical thread, and up until now, I haven't made any onther comments. I will do so on another thread so I don't spoil this one. But in the mean time, here's a picture of my perennial ryegrass during the record breaking heat and drought of 2007:

{{gwi:92321}}

Midnight II on the left with grub damange, Perennial Ryegrass on the right.

Picture was taken June 27, 2007.

Jimmig, while I appreciate your candor and understand your frustration, just because I donÂt grow cool season grasses doesnÂt necessarily mean I have a bias. IMO I do not because I tried it about 20 years ago and learned my lesson the hard way.

When I started the sod farm biz we started out with some TTF. It did great in the Fall, Winter, and Spring. Come Summer is suffered. Since we guarantee all our sod with replacement we quickly learned the first summer we had to replace just about 100% of it that we sold. DidnÂt take long to figure out it was not profitable; in fact cost me a bundle.

You are right golf courses grow Bent just south of you, some courses around here use it that doesnÂt mean you or Joe homeowner can grow it. They have to water 2 or 3 times a day to keep it growing. In fact a few of the courses in your region, like Augusta have chilled water pipe refrigeration installed under the greens so they can grow it.

I never said cool season grasses would not grow in your area. I said the only one recommended one for the Northern part of Alabama was Tall Fescue. Is that not a cool season grass?

All test data and studies in your area reflect your own personal experience. You can plant it in the Fall, have a green lawn late Fall, Winter, and Spring. But when Summer heat comes along it is going to suffer or die.

Good luck to you trying.

Aucteck, lets so those post summer 2007 pics of that Rye grass?

Birmingham's average summer temperature equals that of St. Louis, MO, where KBG is found every where.

Having spent some time in St. Louis (my mom's family is from there), I'd have to say you're wrong on this one. Most of the lawns that I saw were Tall Fescue.

St. Louis is a blast furnace. Almost anyone here will tell you that I am a KBG partisan. But I would not grow KBG in St. Louis and I am pretty certain it is a bad idea in Alabama too.

Sure he could try to grow it. And if he is willing to spend all his spare time working on it, he might even be able to keep it alive.

But just as Bent grass isn't a great idea for the average home owner in my area (too hot and humid), KBG isn't really suited for Alabama. That's not to say he couldn't do it. It's just to say that most people would think it a mistake after trying.

Aucteck, lets so those post summer 2007 pics of that Rye grass?

I think he posted some pics from August 2007. He was replacing the rye with Bermuda, if I recall.

Well, what can I say, I'm hard headed! Everytime someone says it can't be or shouldn't be done, it makes me want to try harder. For about a month last summer, I thought that TTTF was a big mistake, and wished I had just bought Zoysia sod. By late August the TTTF grew green again, and I was glad I refrained from spraying roundup over the TTTF. Right now things look pretty good, but sweltering summertime heat is just a few weeks away, so we'll see what happens then.

Auteck's pics from last summer look no worse than many of the Bermuda & Zoysia lawns here did last summer. The Homeowner's Assoc has had plenty of folks around here throwing out Bermuda and Zoysia sod this spring. Fortunately for me, my St Aug strip by the street passed their drive by inspection.

The way I see it, cool season grass in AL = 9 months of glory, 3 months of pain. Warm season grass in AL = 5 to 7 months of green, 5 to 7 months of dormancy.

Maybe I'll have the balls to take & post pictures in July & August of my lawn (I'll blame the dog for any dead spots!). Or maybe I'll just come up with a new screen name and be a Bermuda grass lover!

Looks like I missed, or forgot that thread. My apologies Auteck, for any oversight on my part. You definitely showed the good, the bad and all the details.

And, the thread gives a little insight into the dynamics of this one too.

To change the topic a little, last year's post and pics about his troubles with blue grass by concrete reminded me of a similar problem I had. It was the south edge of a lawn by a driveway (that runs north and south) so the KBG got the heat off the drive. By August of each year it always went down, deterioted, for a space about three feet wide. After battling it with more water, less, more fetilizer, less, fungicide, corn meal, re-sodding, overseeding (never really saw many grubs) --- last year I dug up the KBG put down a strip of fescue about 4 feet wide there. I am hoping this August it stands up better to whatever would get to the KBG there.

Here is what it looked like after I put down the fescue sod last fall

{{gwi:92322}}

And then you can see some of it in this pic from last weekend
{{gwi:92323}}

The one thing I am a little surprised about is how well the improved fescue does not "stick out" in the KBG/perennial rye yard that I added it to. At least so far.

RC - My experience with digging along the edge of a concrete driveway has always turned up extremely compacted clay, rocks, and concrete. That along with the micro-climate from the reflected sunlight off of the concrete will give any grass a hard time. A section of my lawn along a sidewalk burned out like that, so I took a pick axe to it. Turned out there were bricks buried everywhere! I removed the bricks, tilled it up and brought in some topsoil. We'll see if that helps out this year.

You might have better results if you wait until fall to put the sod down. Maybe plant the seeds in July or August so it's ready to plant sometime in the fall. That will at least give it fall, winter and spring to establish before the summer heat hits.

Well, BP, I'd usually agree with you, but, on that little "hell strip" of a patch of KBG and P Rye (originally), I had tried it all. I overseeded in the fall, several times. I rolled out KBG sod twice in the fall. I'm sure I tried some spring overseeding somewhere over the first 7 seasons I battled it.

Finally, I just decided to go with a fescue that might take the heat better there. So far so good - but it always looks pretty good this time of year - August's heat will tell the tale.

RC--I should have been clearer. I was saying the OP would have a better chance at success in trying to grow KBG in Birmingham if he gives it more time to establish. I think fescue would have an even better chance, but if he's determined to go with KBG, I think it needs all the advantages he can give it.

I wonder if the areas near the sidewalk might be suffering from some other issues in addition to the extra heat. I suspect there's more salt runoff near the sidewalks (unless you never need to salt in the winter). With the low rainfall you get, you probably also have high pH, and concrete tends to leach a bit and raise the pH near it. IIRC, fescue is more salt tolerant than KBG and is also adapted to a broader range of pH.