+1 Daniel. Wisdom always springs from experience, and in this case wisdom indicates that you learn what you have before starting to fiddle.

I'd actually recommend a Logan soil test now as well. Finding out that your soil is too bollixed to grow a good lawn is not a thing you want to do after you planted the lawn. While the window for alterations is closed until early spring, you can get a jump on it first thing and correct anything critical quite quickly.

danielj_2009-sorry, posting at same time. I didn't know about the jar test so I looked it up, crediting source:

"A more accurate way to determine the amount of sand, silt and clay in your soil is to conduct the jar test.

1. Remove 1 to 2 cups of soil from the zone to be irrigated.

2. Place into a glass jar, like a mason jar.

3. Fill the jar half way with water. Shake and let sit for 2 hours so the particles can settle. The heavier sand particles will settle to the bottom, then silt, then clay on top.
4. Measure the height of all 3 layers of the soil then the height of each layer; divide the height of each layer by the total height to figure out the percentage of each soil in the jar.
5. Apply these figures to the “Soil Classification” chart. In the example, now you know the landscape soil is silt loam."

~thanks for suggestion, will do tomorrow. No problem getting dirt!

morpheuspa-will do, and send off to VaTech Cooperative who does analysis. Thanks.

Here is a link that might be useful: Rainbird.com

morpheus - in rereading Sparkling's original post, it seems that half his/her yard is dug up and the other half isn't. Would it not be best to wait until the dug up section is leveled out before sampling? This way, we'll know what the final top 4 to 6 inches looks like. If the sampling is done on that mud pit, who knows what relation that sample will have to the final smoothed plot?

Also, I felt that my back yard was different enough from my front yard that I had two samples pulled for Logan analysis. I'm glad I did. Do you think Sparkling should sample the untouched lawn separately from the newly leveled section?

Also, Sparkling, morpheus will probably comment on sampling from VaTech, but he really recommends Logan Labs ($25 per sample). They apparently give a great analysis, and morpheus is expert at interpreting them. See my post titled, "Got My Soil Results - What's Next?" just a few posts down (probably!) in this forum and look for my Logan Lab test. You will see the kind of analysis you will get.

I won't be nearly as helpful with a VA Tech result as with a Logan. I mean, I'll do my best, but... U Mass would also be another good alternate.

Far's leveling goes, I doubt it'll matter too terribly much in terms of resources. Although in this case, I'd take samples from the top two inches and just write 4" sample depth on the form.

Thank you both for your suggestions. I will submit to Logan Labs. I'm just about to start the jar test. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your input. I am a she btw.

Nice day here. Great day to make progress.

Il commence!

Bon chance!

Running heavy machinery over wet clay to smoothen it will be like planting sod on the sidewalk.
Check later and see how deep your roots get into the soil.

Most lawns prepared that way survive as living thatch, above the soil surface, with few roots going deep.

maplerbirch, thank you for that. Does adding/mixing topsoil in to the mix alter your opinion?

After reading comments, I think I should discourage any seeding and encourage fill mixing, aerating, then multch and netting. Grade issue is another matter. Then in the spring, proper adjustments to soil can be made and spring seeding done with integrated tall fescue. I think weeds rx needs to wait until fall for region 7. Sound right?

Sent off 6" deep two cup sample (varied areas chosen to sample) to Logans Lab as recommended for soil analysis and physical #1. Haha,sent it priority since they closed on Dec 24th through the holidays.

Added second simple Jar Sample to the mix when I got down to 6" for non-topsoil anaylsis.

Thanks all.

This post was edited by SparklingWater on Thu, Dec 11, 14 at 14:03

Well, I'd kind of imagined letting it dry out a bit before leveling it out. Wet soil's not fun to work with, either with machinery or by hand.

>> I think weeds rx needs to wait until fall for region 7. Sound right?

Post the third mowing, the lawn is good to go as far as weed control is concerned (but I'd stay on the gentle side until fall, yes). You can start controlling the most invasive things probably in June or July.

>>Sent off 6" deep two cup sample (varied areas chosen to sample) to Logans Lab as recommended for soil analysis and physical #1. Haha,sent it priority since they closed on Dec 24th through the holidays.

As long as you noted the correct depth on the Logan form, that's not a problem for me. I simply adjust your numbers for the horizon they're in.

It's possible you'll get data back before Christmas, but maybe not. I'll guarantee they're running slow this month, although the number of samples they're getting in is also, similarly, small.

It's no big deal whether it's December 20th or January 3rd that we see them. My plan for adjustment won't start until post-ground-unfreeze, probably mid-March for you, but possibly a little later, and it's going to have to be gentle anyway. A new lawn won't tolerate adjustments as sharp as an established one will.

Lots of activity on this thread. Nice to see.

The picture I posted is a tractor pulling a box blade. The box blade is used for final grading. A good driver can grade 5 acres in a morning if there are no obstacles (sprinklers, trees, pavement, etc).

Yup you're one of the 1% that actually do have clay. Congratulations! :-( However, read what morph said. He has clay, too. If you get after it you can have an excellent lawn and alleviate much of the pain from having been blessed with clay. When you are finished the water will percolate right into it...believe it or not.

I have a question for you. Did you consider Kentucky bluegrass instead of fescue? The only drawback I know of for KBG is that it goes dormant in the winter (except for morph's mostly) and it can go dormant in extreme heat in the summer. Otherwise it does not have the fescue issue with thinning out every year requiring annual fall weed control and overseeding.

I'd be inclined to grade the soil as soon as it is practical and then rest it until spring. Then before you either sod or seed, reevaluate it for settling. If your contractor will only pay for one preparation and for seed, I would ask if you can pocket the seed and installation and put that down toward sod (fescue or KBG) in the spring.

First jar test on right: two separate soil samples taken deep from mucked front yard, water added per directions above and agitated to mix thoroughly at 10 a.m. today. Two layers noted, water and one dense layer without further striations.

This post was edited by SparklingWater on Thu, Dec 11, 14 at 18:16

Jar Test #2: two separate 6" inch deep samples below any top soil (removed in prep for walkway), water added thoroughly mixed at 12 p.m. today.

What do you think? I see water (top) and…muck, which I presume is clay. I see one homogeneous solid layer not two or three.

This post was edited by SparklingWater on Thu, Dec 11, 14 at 18:18

I'm going out on a limb to say you have virtually no clay at all! How much of that settled within just a couple of minutes? That would be the sand portion. The rest is silt if it settled out in a matter of a couple of hours. With clay, you'd still have cloudy water.

danielj, sadly it is clay. Just clay. The water on top in the jar will not even go back into the clay, it's so impervious. We have lived here decades and worked the land in back gardens, built on it, geological surveys done confirming clay. Our homes are built on clay soil.

Btw, this morning neither jar shows any further break out layer.

I am thinking of asking lime be worked into the muck, to buffer the aciditiy of the clay to more alkaline. Lime is known to dry clay too, which is sorely needed.

dchall_san_antonio, thank you for your suggestions and queries.

I read that KBG has some problems still being worked out more than TF and I'm looking for a green lawn as much as possible. Dormancy of our Zoysia drives me crazy. We're up to the work of lawn care. My husband and I like to get our hands dirty and see results.

I appreciate your and others comments on grading and then resting. It is obvious to us, just as with the back gardens that this needs work and is not the time to rush to just get it done and something down. Soil erosion is important though.

What do you think about mixing in lime with the clay at this point to help dry the clay so it can be easier moved as well as lessen acidity?

I am sure it's a one time grade and done. I am going to have to talk with the City who delayed the permitting so long into higher risk of wet and freezing weather period, so that if needed in the spring, a second top off grading over the same ten feet from the foundation across the front of the house can be repeated. It's a two way street, you pay for permits and work, you want to get it done right. I think that is fair and reasonable.

This post was edited by SparklingWater on Fri, Dec 12, 14 at 10:53

If you shook those jars really well and ended up with a single homogenous layer as it sorted out through the water, then clay is NOT likely your issue.
I typically have a 1/4 to 1/2" of clay settling on top of a couple inches of sand in my jars, depending on where I collect the samples.

Essentially zero clay. Your top sample is about 50/50 silt/sand, the bottom is about 60/40 silt/sand.

Both are consistent with a silty loam, although the bottom is equally consistent with a silty-sandy loam as it's right on the border between the two.

Clay won't even begin to settle after six hours, it requires two full days.

We could get a better read if you posted photos taken after 2 minutes and 2 hours for each sample (just shake to re-do), but this answer is more than close enough.

What you have in that soil is destroyed water channels that aren't allowing the water to drain through. Possibly it's chemically off-kilter and/or deflocculated (in layers instead of little peds like it should be).

Both are fixable. The Logan test will tell us what the resources look like, and fixing those will shift the chemistry back toward where it should be--which tends to lighten soils from the ionic bonding of soil bits.

Deflocculation can be fixed (over time) by adding organic material and spraying with shampoo.

Destroyed water channels will fix themselves, although the OM/shampoo trick will work there as well.

When I did my soil test I was very interested to find out how much clay I had. It took me a while to believe you guys that I had essentially 0 clay.

Just checked the 2008 formal geological survery done and my specific area is chatergized as clayey silt, if that helps.

I took samples from 4 different areas in the front, all ~ 6" deep, put in two jars, added half water as directions said and agitated to all liquid mix, then let sit.

So you think it's clayey silt then?

>>It took me a while to believe you guys that I had essentially 0 clay.

It takes everybody a while to believe that. Clays are actually rare, although there are entire areas of the US where if somebody said, "I have clay," I wouldn't question that statement. But I still want a jar test.

Most people initially don't know that sand and silt can act exactly the same, with slow water penetration, little air, and a very heavy profile.

>>So you think it's clayey silt then?

Nope. Silt loam or silt/sand loam from that jar test. Definitely.

Clay won't settle after six hours. Two days, sure, but not six hours.

morpheuspa et al, I stand corrected then and glad for it. Sorry to all I thought it was clay alone and thank you for speaking up. Silty loam is also on the geological survey of (our street is shown) in addition to clayey silt. Still have the jars sitting so can look again in couple days for further layering.

Specific question morpheuspa and all: how do we grade this in the immediate future? I get a one time shot at grading under the current permit: 10 feet* out across the front is allowed.

In other words: is this even gradable right now without first improving the deflocculation, since the water/silt is sitting on top (like in the jar). Maybe I should just wait on grading too and tell the City?

*edited to change to feet

This post was edited by SparklingWater on Fri, Dec 12, 14 at 21:21

Sparkling - you just did a formal geological survey of your yard. I'd believe your results over theirs. The only thing I can question about your test is how much soil you started with. I think you should have maybe the bottom 25% of the jar at most with soil, with water filling to 90%. Add a few drops of liquid soap to help break up larger particles and shake for several minutes. A tall, narrow bottle is better than a short, wide one.

I'm not a soil expert, but do have extensive background in lab work. I'm not aware of any reason clay would repel water and leave a crystal clear layer like that. Clay by definition has the smallest particle size in your sample, and would be miscible with any free water above the sand/silt layer in your test bottle.

Flocculation status, or water channels, or soil chemistry, won't get in the way of regrading. That's not a concern.

I have no background in construction and don't know the rules for wet soils, though. Hopefully somebody else can help out there.

>>A tall, narrow bottle is better than a short, wide one.

True, we'd get the best results in a graduated cylinder. Fortunately, precise percentages aren't required here so the jar is good enough. Whether it's really sandy loam or silty loam isn't that important. I now have a range of cation exchange capacity numbers I expect from the Logan test (plus or minus organic matter levels which really change that).

I'll end up using the formal EC result from Logan to derive the numbers to use to adjust resources, if any adjustment is required.

Even with very precise soil type results, I'd still need the EC to adjust.

Thank you danielj. I'll get a narrow jar, add 25% deep soil (just to be sure it's not top soil), 75% water and a smidgeon of liquid soap and agitate and let it sit.

maplerbirch, thank you for spotting this jar test and working to open my mind from my clay fixation.

I truly appreciate everyones help and willingness to share their knowledge. Pretty stunned right now, have to say.

Soil in picture is way too wet to be tilling or driving on etc., wait until it dries out next year.

In fact, it is so wet I wonder about the buildings right next to it and if you may actually need drain lines.

Probably some plywood or other protection needed to be put down before it was put into its current state by the activity there.

bboy, it's a long story and regretful the soil is as it is. It could have been somewhat avoided but best to let it go as that.

Thanks for weighing in on whether it is even drivable/plowable/tilling on currently. Patience may be the best virtue here.

Exterior drain work plus, well that I am happy to say is now done, and professionally so.

Sparkling> I truly appreciate everyones help and willingness to share their knowledge. Pretty stunned right now, have to say.

Some people come into forums looking for help, but then act like they are the expert and don't take the advice. You, on the other hand, came here with some preconceptions, but were more interested in doing the right thing than protecting your ego. I think that's why people want to help you.

Those Logan results are going to be real interesting!

Also, you need a permit to grade your yard? By "10 inches out across the front" you mean you are grading down 10 inches from the house to the curb?

Oh gosh, I meant 10 feet out from foundation and across/around the house. Yes this required a permit. Also, a land disturbance greater than 2500 sq ft and change of grade more than one foot requires a permit and a grading plan submission by licensed engineer or surveyor.

Our grade will be 6" change and square footage less than 2500 sq feet.

This post was edited by SparklingWater on Fri, Dec 12, 14 at 21:07

Day 3 of jar test-no further layering:

Zoysia grass (warm) is what we have predominantly, including on half of front less torn up. It would be easier for us to stick to what we have than change out our lawn.

Can Zoysia sod be laid in the spring or do you manually have to place plugs? Half of the front is pretty torn up.

Thanks.

I don't see a clay line, so I'm calling it Not Enough Clay to Matter. Silt seems to vary between 50-60% (it could be higher on the right, but close enough), for Silty Loam. The remainder is pretty fine sand.

Silty loam has no special requirements, it's a pretty standard and common soil type that's relatively easy to deal with overall.

I know zip about Zoysia other than dethatching and feeding, so I'll let an expert chime in on that.

Morpheus - are you sure you can see a line in that sand, so to speak? The glass jar bends inward near the base, and there is a whitish reflection as a result at about 50% up the soil line. I don't know if that is what you are referring to. If Sparkling redoes the test with more photos along a timeline it would help. In any case it seems you've got enough information to go on already.

Given the white paper towel, I could be wrong there...

On second thought, which I had during dinner, the second test is completely consistent with the first. There's no need to do this a third time.

Don't beat yourself up about the clay thing. Most people coming to this forum with issues report that they have clay soil. Some call it "that red (name your state here) clay soil". What the Logan soil test will show is how much magnesium is in the soil. Magnesium is a necessary micronutrient, but it is also the cause of water retention causing clay-like symptoms.

Hi everyone! Took a little breather from cogitation on this lawn and did some decorating , etc. The GC's men have been working hard: installed a walk way and steps and are working the soil to clean out debris, fill in lows and soon start the grading.

We're all on board with foregoing sod or dormant seeding and just putting it to bed for the winter after grading is done. To limit soil erosion, biodegradable fabric and secured over the worked area.

Any suggestions real quickly on what to place on the raw soil before the fabric? Some like ground up leaves (we have quite a bit and I think this would work well); some like straw (don't really know why) and some like tree bark but I don't wish to do that.

No Logan Lab results as yet which is to be expected given they were just sent last week. Any thoughts on lime or other before we cover the worked upon areas?

I will keep you updated via two new threads soon: "my Logan Lab results" (following the leader Danielj in similar discussion) and also very soon "which grass for our front yard" (and how to rid the remnant other) as this has to be done before spring seeding of new area. I'll probably need to sand level too.

Thanks again and Happy Holidays.

Ground up leaves would be fine, although I wouldn't add an extremely thick layer if you're going to dormant seed or spring seed. It won't have time to rot off. Half an inch (which will decay some and increase in density as it packs down), great.

>>No Logan Lab results as yet which is to be expected given they were just sent last week. Any thoughts on lime or other before we cover the worked upon areas?

Never add anything that will change the soil's chemistry blindly. Wait for the Logan results and we'll see what it needs. I'd rather have to make a slower change than find out later that I'd just added magnesium to a magnesium-heavy soil--that's a recipe for major issues.

A lot of folks doing lawn renovations/seeding often advocate a light dusting of peat moss to help prevent wash out of seed/dirt.

Will also help even out soil/seed moisture come spring.

Otherwise there is also paper mulch type soil stabilizer products - might be able to find some on sale at big box stores. (Encap makes one)

Thanks BoatDrinksQ5 for the tips. Peat moss, that's interesting. We have low areas in the back that erode, maybe we'll try some there.

morpheuspa, the Logan Lab report arrived this morning. I think I will start a new thread.

Today the topsoil (nice, rich top soil, 30 sf) is going down on the front yard and grading along with it. The new brick walk way is almost done. I am so excited at how changed our front house looks and am very proud of the GC and gentlemen who worked this job.

I just hope we didn't jump the gun with the soil test before adding topsoil. I somehow thought that any grading and or amending of the soil would be done in the spring. I guess Morpheus can address that.

I'd thought the same. Grading isn't generally a problem. Adding topsoil might be, depending on the depth.

Oh, I see now. Hmm. The yard was so torn up from the machinery that everyone thought it best to add topsoil now then cover for to prevent further soil erosion.

Topsoil depth guesstimate is about 6" nearest foundation and drops gradually over next 10 feet-this area will be for bedding plants.
Topsoil depth guesstimate for lawn starting 10' out from foundation: 4"

Here are Logan Lab Soil Results taken from our lawn area:

Clay 13%
Silt 58.2%
Sand 28.8%
Organic Matter 4.13%

Fine Gravel 2mm 0%

This post was edited by SparklingWater on Thu, Dec 18, 14 at 21:02

Logan Lab Soil Report

Sample Depth in Inches 6
Total Exchange Capacity 8.15
Soil ph 7.5
% Organic Matter 4.13

ANIONS
Sulfur: p.p.m 14
Phosphorus lbs/acre 133

CATIONS
Calcium 2528 (desired 2216)
Magnesium 242 (desired 234)
Potassium 272 (desired 254)
Sodium 72 (pounds per acre)

Base Saturation %
Calcium 77.55 (60 to 70%)
Magnesium 12.37 (10-20%)
Potassium 4.28 (2 to 5%)
Sodium 1.91 (.5-3%)
Other Bases 3.90 (variable)
Exchangable Hydrogen 0.00 (10 to 15%)**

Trace Elements
Boron p.p.m. 0.23
Iron p.p.m. 167.0
Manganese p.p.m. 16.0
Copper p.p.m. 3.97
Zinc p.p.m. 3.4
Aluminum p.p.m 678.0

Other none

>>Topsoil depth guesstimate is about 6" nearest foundation and drops gradually over next 10 feet-this area will be for bedding plants.
Topsoil depth guesstimate for lawn starting 10' out from foundation: 4"

That's extremely deep and would invalidate the Logan test. Four inches covers most of the feeder root depth for grasses. So although the tests here are good for the rest of the lawn, the top soil area is an unknown. Wait and see if it ends up that deep, it does seem like an awful lot of top soil.

The results of the test:

Total Exchange Capacity 8.15: Consistent with the soil test. While optimal is 10 to 15, this is not a problem in the slightest.

Soil ph 7.5: It's good we recommended no lime as it would be exactly the wrong response in this soil. Your pH is already thrown somewhat high, although this is no barrier to a gorgeous lawn. But let's not throw it out of whack any further than it already is.

% Organic Matter 4.13: In the Good range, but with the lower EC and high pH, I'd recommend adding OM slowly over the next few years. That will tend to raise the EC somewhat and make the pH matter less.

ANIONS
Sulfur: p.p.m 14: Perfect.

Phosphorus lbs/acre 133: A little low. I recommended starter fertilizer below.

CATIONS
Calcium 2528 (desired 2216)
Magnesium 242 (desired 234)
Potassium 272 (desired 254)
Sodium 72 (pounds per acre)

>>I don't report on these directly, I use them as a basis for adjusting soils.

Base Saturation %
Calcium 77.55 (60 to 70%): In perfect range, although on the high side of it. Excess Ca isn't a problem.

Magnesium 12.37 (10-20%): In perfect range.

Potassium 4.28 (2 to 5%): In perfect range (which is rare for K).

Sodium 1.91 (.5-3%): High. This, in combination with your otherwise perfect cations above, is sending the pH too high. At this time, I'm not going to change it. Let's see if it leaches out.

Other Bases 3.90 (variable): Everything else. This is pretty normal.

Exchangable Hydrogen 0.00 (10 to 15%)**: Zero because of your high pH.

Trace Elements
Boron p.p.m. 0.23: Low. Boron's critical for photosynthesis and meristem development and differentiation. Recommendations below.

Iron p.p.m. 167.0: Technically OK, but this won't produce good color in the lawn. Use Milorganite as desired to raise this and raise the OM at the same time.

Manganese p.p.m. 16.0
Copper p.p.m. 3.97
Zinc p.p.m. 3.4
Aluminum p.p.m 678.0

These four are fine (Al isn't used, it's actually toxic, but not available until pH drops into the low-5 range). Zn is technically out of whack when compared to the others, but I'm not inclined to fiddle with it.

Recommendations:

May 1: Apply starter fertilizer at bag rate.

June 1: Apply starter fertilizer at bag rate.

June 15: Apply 3 tablespoons per thousand square feet of 20 Mule Team borax (use Milorganite as a carrier to even the distribution and get this tiny amount down).

September 1: Apply starter fertilizer at bag rate.

September 15: Apply 3 tablespoons per thousand square feet of 20 Mule Team borax.

Thank you very much again morpheuspa, for taking your time around these busy days to offer detailed analysis and advice. I am very pleased to read we have managable lawn corrections.

Giving me actual dates is extremely helpful, and your plan seems very doable.

Those topsoil "guesstimates" may indeed by off (high). I will ask tomorrow and get better details on this matter. Some settlement will happen over winter, as the lawn was very wet from persistent rain when the top soil was applied.

Below four inches seems key for good grass root growth.

No problem, as long as you don't mind that I was covered in soap when I wrote that. I'm currently making 25 pounds of the stuff in the kitchen. I think I also have mica glitter in my hair and I certainly smell like pumpkin spice-plumeria-rose-peppermint-sandalwood-evergreen. It's kind of nauseating.

Your corrections are pretty easy; we'll want to kick that phosphorus level way up, but I dislike adding more than 3 apps before a re-test (four could be snuck in, with the fourth on October 1st). The boron really needs to come up as it's borderline deficient. Organic matter should come up a bit (for the reported issues, I'm thinking 6% or better).

Other than that, the soil looks good and isn't going to give you a lot of trouble once it gets graded and settles down.

Know I'm late. Cover crop, is it too late
Just saying,
Jo

Jo, it may be too late if the OP decides to sod.

For seeding, a sping/summer cover crop of something like clover or annual ryegrass might not be a bad idea. Then kill it before seeding in August. It'll hold the soil against erosion, plus add some organic material and some longer-term nitrogen sources.

It's a good way of buying time to hit the perfect seeding window.