"What you don't know is that in Ontario Canada all chemical pesticides,herbicides and fungicides are banned by law."

The reason I don't know this is because it simply is not true. Please refrain from tossing red herrings like that into the discussion. It tempts guys like me into wasting our time responding to them.

Ontario has a ban on *cosmetic* pesticides. The ban does not cover agriculture. It also has exceptions for golf courses and eight other applications. Although it may be implied, I find no specific mention of herbicides or fungicides.

The term "chemical" is not used to define the banned products.

Jim

Here is a link that might be useful: Ontario Cosmetic Pesticide Ban

Well jimster--

That was the first reply to this post. I didn't know I had to go into detail and lay out the entire law when we were talking about home gardening.

For the home gardener there is a ban. The ordinary Joe can't buy those products anywhere in the province.

Has any State done even half as much--NO--so don't knock it

It is likely true that billions would die if the Haber process were shelved suddenly. Possibly not true regarding pesticides and herbicides however. Plenty of labor can replace those. Replacing the fertilizer would be more difficult.

The comment about flushing fertilizer down the toilet is on-track to the solution. Vacuum collection rather than water under gravity.

Pn, wouldn't you think if the pesticides and herbicides were suddenly unavailable that more crop land would have to be devoted to growing the same crops to produce the same amount of food as weeds and other pests would be reducing yields?

I ask because opening up more ground to cultivation can turn out to have negative environmental consequences. Unfortunately, we can't grow any more new land.

If we are willing to grow food on more land we must be prepared to accept the consequences, I.E. much more produce coming from over seas, higher land prices here due to competition with Ag., higher food prices, erosion of less than ideal land being brought into cultivation, et al.

Total agreement on the haber process BTW.

"Well jimster--
That was the first reply to this post. I didn't know I had to go into detail and lay out the entire law when we were talking about home gardening."

"Has any State done even half as much--NO--so don't knock it"

Well now I don't feel so bad about this posters smart-a$$ed response to me in an earlier post above. A Canuck with an attitude. I'm beginning to see a pattern here.

Greg
Southern Nevada

Ok greg just what did I say that was so smart assed and just what is my bad attitude. I told you to get off your high horse. To me that means stop acting so holier than thou. If that's all it takes to get to you, then you have a mighty thin skin.

I did not put you down unlike your last statement about me.

I'm not a canuck I'm a Canadian and darn proud to be one and I'm proud that my province had the nerve to ban pesticides.

What's the difference between Canadians and Americans? The latter have florida to get warm in, the former have long-johns. Thats an old one aye? And totally untrue, because there is probbly near as many canucks in ole floridy as yankees....

Mike, I often think of the huge amount of land that is in cultivation, using fertilizer and cides and labor but doesn't produce a bite to eat: lawns and ornamental gardens.

Why is everyone getting so riled up? Nothing wrong with a bit of miracle grow. Works very well when combined with lots of compost and organic mulch. Vegetable gardening is in itself unnatural. Hand-picking (insert insect name here) is unnatural. Burning or trashing infected plants is unnatural. If you want to garden "naturally", plant wild flowers and grasses, never step into the garden again and then sit back and have fun attacking people for using "synthetic chemicals". Don't even get me started on the feel-good types who use blood and bone meal with a heavy hand and think they're helping the environment by not using those bad synthetic chemicals. Factory farms are SO natural (sarcasm). My point is that those who THINK they know a lot about protecting the environment, actually don't have a clue. No offense intended.

pnbrown,

True, Lawns and ornamental gardens occupy some space. Nothing though, when compared to commercial growing. I still posit that a good farmer, one interested in maximizing profits, will not use more nuits than they need to raise a good crop.

Mike

I'm glad it's not me this time! This is an old argument and I'll bet you can find thousands of other threads who've already attacked the situation.

I'm in between, but you all might have to admit spraying a little fertilizer to feed just the plant, not repairing what is being taken from the soil will eventually deplete your soil faster and nothing will grow.

That's where I'm at, the soil doesn't have organic matter, nothing is going to grow until I compost over it for about 5 years, it's run-off from a very steep hillside behind me and runs off the very steep hillside below me. This yard for probably 50 years or more hasn't had a good garden. Miracle grow might serve the city apartment dwellers needs, but the ground needs real fertilizer and compost and so will apartment dwelling pots. I don't see why they just throw old dirt away when they can compost with it in a bucket and rejuvenate it. There is less waste in that and garbage disposal can be expensive, so composting even if it's under the kitchen sink, would be worth it.

The chemicals are making more resistant insects for insects that as we know of are not harmful to humans, but if they mutate, what if they become something worse? Their venoms can become stronger, but I'm not a scientist, but I'd rather take my chances to not breed them that way.

There's a place for everything, but in moderation. I'm nursing a fatty tumor on my left under arm and I'm not using any chemicals to make it grow bigger. It's harmless, but can become something worse. I would stay as far away from chemicals as I can, but that's just me.

I still posit that a good farmer, one interested in maximizing profits, will not use more nuits than they need to raise a good crop.

If I were doing it for the $ I would surely under fertilize rather than over fertilize. I've seen the results of over fertilizing and it's something like using roundup.

Those of you who say "we don't know a clue about protecting the environment", this is my answer. We know about many organic ways to grow vegetables. We have many natural methods for eliminating insects, and even some fungi that plague our food crops. And yet, even with all this knowledge, we still continue to use chemicals that we know are unsafe for human consumption. We also know the dangerous side effects of these chemicals, including:
-Cancer
-Babies born prematurely
-Chemicals leaking into our water supply
-This list goes on and on

So, with all the knowledge that we possess now, and let me say this one piece of knowledge one more time so everyone sees it: CANCER, what sort of argument can you possibly conjure up that justifies using these chemicals??

Also, on a slightly more positive note, I have a link posted at the bottom of the page that gives recipes for natural sprays you can make at home for eliminating insects (if you're having critter trouble).

http://www.ghorganics.com/page14.html

When you have a problem, use the internet and find an alternative to pesticides. You'll be saving more than just the planet by doing so.

Unfortunately, this sort of thread never results in a satisfactory conclusion because so many of the arguments are based on non-rational ideas. For instance, chemical compounds frowned upon by some in the organic movement are "chemicals" (or worse yet, "harsh" chemicals) while other chemical compounds are not considered chemicals at all. In other words, "chemical" is not a longer a scientific term in these discussions, it's a pejorative. And, frequently, there is no understanding of their meaning displayed in the use of basic chemical terms such as element, compound, mixture or salt.

What about the title of this thread? Are all pesticides bad? Would I be insulting Bacillus thuringiensis if I referred to it as a pesticide? Am I supposed to avoid all pesticides including Bt?

It would be good if everyone involved in this sort of discussion had taken a high school chemistry course and maybe a biology course too. But, obviously, that isn't happening. Instead, politics is passed off as science and many gardening practices are based on ignorance. That's too bad because, mixed in with the ignorance, superstition and old wives tales, there are methods of proven effectiveness whose credibility suffers from the company they keep.

Many of the statements I see here remind me more of the Salem witch trials than sensible approaches to gardening.

Jim

I'll weigh in here. I grew up on a real farm in the midwest and have gardened or helped for 60 some years.

I have also read more than a bit in the useful Small Farms Library which is mostly organic oriented.

I have also looked at some of the Rodale Institute's struggles to utilize green cover crops on a real time farm basis...lots of problems there.

I have also worked at enriching the soil in my garden.. I have come to the conclusion that while some practices are improving, the big time farmers are not going to satisfy the more total organic people here or anywhere anytime soon....and I understand why. The use of weed killers is a tradeoff that involves MUCH less cultivation....I remember the many trips over the fields in the old days.

Still we gardeners need to be continually upgrading our practices to be more friendly to the soil. No, I am not against a moderate amount of fertilizers and some fruit tree spraying and the judicious sometimes use of some bug killers.

"No, I am not against a moderate amount of fertilizers and some fruit tree spraying and the judicious sometimes use of some bug killers."

I agree with that and also with your statement about caring for the soil. Making lots of compost is perhaps the best thing a gardener can do for a garden, IMO. I have used beneficial insects with astounding success on one occasion. But it's not a religion to me. There must be observable results.

Where I part ways with some of the posters here is when they resort to shrill rhetoric, sweeping generalizations and careless use of terminology in support of questionable feel-good ideas. I know they will claim the ideas are proven. But I can read the literature as well as most and I have plenty of my own gardening experience to learn from. A lot of that wishful thinking does not stand up to scrutiny.

Jim

I don't have much to add here (nobody has, IMO), but just wanted to say you're all cracking me the heck up.

For the record: I do my vegetables "organic", which means I struggle more than my father did with insects. However, I don't rely on them to feed my family, and he did. It's a luxury to me and a hobby. If things were different I'm sure I'd consider doing things differently when having insect/pest trouble. And I recently had a sod webworm problem on my lawn and went ahead and killed them conventionally, knowing due to research that organic measures fail. So I'm like the majority - somewhere in the middle.

The stuff about "chemicals" really gets me. It's like the people who talk about flushing "toxins" from their bodies with diets. Good times.

Anyway, thanks all for the good chuckle tonight.

>>>Also, if you do a little bit of research, you can often find an organic alternative that works just as well (if not better).

You need to understand that even though it's organic, it's still a pesticide and it's still deadly. Rotenone, which is organic, is heavily linked to Parkinson's Disease. Organic does not guarantee a chemical (and it is all chemical whether it be made by nature or in a lab) to be safe.

[reading jimster's comments on Sat, Sep 25, 10 at 12:02]

> Rises, golf claps.

[Sits, wishes he had said that.]

[Writes note to self to say something like that next time.]

End

Dan

For many years, my garden was Insecticide and Fungicide free. Life was good! Then "climate change" or some other event has brought a horde of Psyllids and California Tomato Russet Mites into our neighborhood. This was the result of continuing to "spray nothing" this past Season:

{{gwi:106134}}

So, I set out on a quest to find something effective in controlling these pests, while making a good faith effort to research what worked and at the same time, caused the minimal impact on Nature. Tough challenge, as no product (and you guys can argue all you want about "chemical", etc.) will on one hand, kill the desired pests, while not causing collateral damage somewhere else.

My first thought was to use Beneficials like Lacewings to fend off these pests, but when I researched what their effect on controlling this nasty California Tomato Russet Mite, I found no Beneficials that would likely be effective. Also, I didn't want to do a "trial and error" kind of thing and watch (again) what happened to most of my tomato crop this Season.

After studying the composition and factors like lethality, Day of Harvest restriction, half-life, etc. I have settled on using this product:

{{gwi:107910}}

It is comprised of 90% Canola Oil, and naturally occurring Pyrethrin harvested from the Chrysanthemum flower. So far, it is keeping the insect infestation in check, and is not harming the bees, etc. as I spray it late in the evening after the bees have departed. Would I like to see a World where spraying of anything isn't necessary - you bet! But at least what I have tried to do is study and research alternatives, then use the specific product which minimizes collateral damage.

{{gwi:113588}}

Raybo

Pyrethrins are awesome. They're extremely beyond belief toxic to fish, though. I'm sure runoff isn't an issue for most home gardeners (especially those using containers).

It's not good for birds, either, but most have other plants to keep them interested rather than dealing with a freshly applied stinky pyrethrin sprayed plant.

The real downside, though...they kill bees.

The upside...they degrade very quickly and are pretty harmless after a relatively short period of time.

It can be toxic to humans, too, but it's mostly one of those nausea and puking things if you do something weird like pour it all over you or drink it.

Raybo, what jumps into my mind looking at your picture is, a) too many tomato plants jammed together without other plant diversity, and b) weak plants stressed by being grown in containers. A correction of those factors for the next season will likely considerably lessen the impact of pest insects.

pnbrown,

While I do appreciate your recommendation, I have been growing in containers for several years now, quite successfully.

{{gwi:44544}}

Our entire region has been hammered by a combination of the Tomato Russet Mite and Psyllids, for the first time that anyone locally can recall. This has been the coolest Summer on record here in San Jose, so I am assuming that had something to do with it. To be sure, further spacing between containers would be helpful, but with our postage-stamp sized yards out in Silicon Valley, every inch of space is valuable when trying to raise vegetables. Again, my point is to do good research and use the LEAST lethal type of treatment possible. Don't just grab ANY Pesticide off the shelf at Home Depot.

Raybo

Hi all, I am somewhat in the Middle ground, as a lot of people are, I am not a farmer, and the cost of labour compared to using weed killers, pesticide in the open market we live in would cripple, many farmers and is why Organic has to be more expensive.
I garden because 1st off I was missing food I was used to in the UK, but then I found it fun and addictive :)
Tonight I canned some Pizza sauce and tomato sauce for cooking, I have a tiny space amongst my acre of lawn! the amount food I produce is also tiny, out of 20 Tom plants I have managed so far, 8 pints salsa, 5 pints tom sauce, 1/2 pint tom paste, and 2 pints Pizza sauce, I have bothered to can it as we are only in the US until Christmas and I know I will use it all up before that, which then makes the point I could on an acre I am sure produce enough food for my Family, if I got a few chickens for eggs and meat, and rabbits, for meat and a goat for milk, down side is this would be full time, and the fun would go :(
I have tried not to use pesticides, to the point I was happy my toms got those hornworm and I only noticed them, cos of the parasitic wasp, down side lost all my cabbages except 1, they had all been covered, but high winds pulled them off often, and squash killed as well, so I have in my 2 years of gardening used selvin once each year, I am guilty of using artificial fertilizer, last year before I had a compost heap.
but the thing is and it is a big thing for me, being British so part of the fattest nation in Europe I believe? and living in America the fattest nation in the world? Why is over consumption never, ever used in these arguments?
a lot of my food in the UK was from African Nations, mainly Kenya, also from in dry places like Israel.
I think if world hunger was a truthful issue people would not be dying of it now, I think in many ways it is commerce and MONEY! BUT! I am not against that if the Big agrochemical companies could help.
But truefully I think the way ahead is the sensible use of these bi-produces of the petrol industry and organic together, think of the waste that could be used for compost on the land that goes to land fill in every home? and food companies?:(
well that is all I can say I don't have an agenda, I just do what I can for the planet, but I also realise that this is the real world, and I am lucky to live in the West but we can use both methods, people need to be encouraged to compost, even if they only have lawn, but also so long as it it done sensibly Fertilizers can be good if it allows Joe or joanne to grow his/her veg and not drive to the Grocer.

I think the overall point being is that according to the flawed premise in the original posting (and failure to correct ongoing), pyrethrins are bad. But it is not a petrochemical. I wonder if insecticidal soap is bad according to the original definition...

Nonetheless, toms in containers (I am down to two) are no more stressed than toms in the ground if you pay attention to them and meet their distinct needs, and likely less goop-needy than in other situations.

Dan

I think for the most part gardeners are happy people. We enjoy nature and actually enjoy garden "work" knowing there will be multiple benefits from our labor. I was a high school biology teacher for almost four decades and have gardened for more years than that. I think I have a pretty good idea of the pros and cons of organic vs. nonorganic gardening practices. I choose to go organic and wish more gardeners would do the same. However, I realize individual circumstances or perspectives might direct a fellow gardener to pursue other methods.

The thing that bothered me most about reading these posts this morning was the manner in which some posters personally attacked others. I like to think of this site as mutualistic not competitive.

There are options but some plants need a little help. Feeding the soil has worked for me. For the plagued plants I employ rowcovers and companion planting. On the weed effort I employ rotations, covercrops and transplants. The weeds are few and see few pests or disease.

Most of the chemical products are based on disrupting function of the pest. It is a logical consequence that we humans are impacted.

Here is a link that might be useful: Silent Spring e-book sources

"Most of the chemical products are based on disrupting function of the pest. It is a logical consequence that we humans are impacted."

Many insects can fly. It is a logical consequence that humans can fly. ;-)

Jim

One thing I've found is that a particular method or practice can work well for a while and then one's plants can fail to thrive and/or be plagued. The reasons are rarely obvious, at least to me.

Personally, i am inclined to change a practice rather than break out a pesticide, 'natural' or not.

Mewste: there may be hope for the psyllid on tomato problem or not. As a student at CSU in CO I was tending an AAS vegetable trials garden one summer. The tomatoes developed a pretty bad case of psyllids. The entomologist, Dr. Witney Cranshaw I believe, explained to me that along the Front range of CO psyllids only show up when there have been strong enough south winds at a certain time of the year. Dr. Cranshaw said that they basically blow up from N.M. some years and that if they don't, no psyllids that year. Maybe psyllids are like that in your area and you had a psyllid year.

A similar thing happens in FL to the strawberry growers only the pest is robins, some years they don't migrate any further south than south GA, other years they make it into the strawberry growing areas and make a mess of things.

If you ever develop any disease problems on your containers, that will be another indicator to allow more space between the plants, good air circulation is always a good thing. I'm guessing you never irrigate overhead, suppose your plants don't get covered in dew and seldom are wetted by rain.

I like your setup BTW and appreciate the difficulty and unique callenges to container growing having graduated with a degree in floriculture and worked in a number of greenhouses growing many different flowering crops in a wide variety of containers as well as some vegetables. Keep up the good work and never be too satisfied!

michael,

Good fortune with your studies at CSU. I really envy you!

I do hope the Psyllids were a "one-time-event" here this Year, as they have devastated so many home crops this Season in our area. The Tomato Russet Mite gave us a double Whammy this year. My personal goal is to use the least harmful product, be it organic or inorganic, to do the job. Simply blasting the garden with DDT is NOT a real solution, in my view.

I would love to see you at CSU place more focus on Beneficials to address some of these harmful pests, as a "Yin/Yang" solution would bring more harmony in solving infestations - at least for the home gardener like ourselves at GardenWeb.

Raybo

If each person bought a little less chemical, it would in the end mean less chemicals out there that are harmful in the environment. Even organic chemicals in large amounts are bad, I agree with that, but still using a store bought chemical that might not work anyways or creates a bug immune to it in the next generation really didn't fix their problem. People relying on it permenently instead of looking for something else aren't going fix any problem. Sevin does not work on everything and bugs are becoming immune. It will work one year and maybe not another.

I'm willing to bet people who have gardened for 20 years or so, have some if not all organic methods that work for their area. Newer gardeners are more likely to use chemicals as farms do. Chemicals are expensive, they may or may not be cheaper than labor. If you ever look over a farm and inspect every plant, you will probably find problems, small or large, with every one of them. It could be they would produce more with better pruning or general care and the general labor would be worth it.

About people eating less, it's true, but it really is what they eat. Oily greasy foods make people fatter, the most common American food, not sure about Europe, but the fried foods also fall into the category of poor people's foods. It's cheaper to fry it up than to decorate it with spices, lemon juice marinades, hickory smoke, etc., etc., like eating a steak at a steak house or eating Taco Bell, it's cheaper to eat a taco any day than a steak. The weight issues are probably due to method of cooking, not so much the amount.

We throw a lot of food away, the most wasteful nation, and how many people eat their leftovers? Some just throw them in the garbage. It's those habits that contribute to the amount of foods also.

If each person were asked to put in a small garden, even if it were 5x5, in their yard, even require it per household in every city and town, simple things like lettuce, greens, and maybe cabbage wouldn't be needed and they could grow something more important to the market. It certainly would benefit everyone to try a little something. It would open their eyes what they can and can't do. They would see that beautiful lawn was worthless because a tomato plant can't even grow there and they would start to pay more attention to less vain upkeep then put it towards something of more use.

If each person were asked to put in a small garden, even if it were 5x5, in their yard,.

Victory Gardens all over again.

Many people in my area have a backyard garden. It's a very Italian tradition.

My great grandparents were Sicilian and my mother brags all the time of their garden. They had grapevines and any vegetable you could imagine, but my grandmother just grew houseplants. I wish I knew half as much as my great grandparents did. Most people in the south have gardens. Almost all of my relatives had one, and a good one too.

I've heard of the Victory gardens, plus a tv program about it, but they were similar to kitchen gardens unless I'm wrong. What a great tradition to keep alive!

Scarlet, I am an idiot! but you actually finished the end point of my discussion which I clearly didn't do about the waste as well, I had just watched ' Great British Waste Menu" and it showed the waste of food at all points in the food chain and got four chef's to produce food for movers and shakers in the politics, food, and celeb, from food they found wasted, they dumpster dived, visited farms and peoples fridges, and the waste was unbelievable, good food, just trashed because it wasn't pretty enough, just a tiny bit too ripe, not the perfect size or shape, just dumped! also due to sell by dates, they had environmental health people to test the food, and I only remember them rejecting a couple of items on food safety grounds.
their is also a new program called "Food" and they are leaving food in ambient temps and the rate of decay and food safety.
River cottage which I think is show in the US is currently showing how to use left overs, which at 40 in the UK I was the victim of ridicule my whole life, especially as I have always been a bit better off than a lot of my contemporaries, but like my Mum and Dad, food is important and I will try really hard not to waste it, especially meat, I could never be a vegetarian but if an Animal died I will use every bit.
But I will say again over consumption, I feel waif like in the US and we mix with the middle class America. I an so huge compared to my English Friends I am US size 12 I have lost weight here as I hate the food, so find it difficult to eat even though I cook from scratch, the meat is disgusting, chicken full of water, beef tasteless, I bet none of it is hung and hamburger?? to me mince beef feels "gritty" , the only nice meat is Ham, and that my friends, you do well :) and Lamb is almost impossible to find? Pork, what happened to the Skin?? nice bit of crackling?
A lot of American's take the mick out of us as we eat a high fat diet, Dumplings with stews, 1/4 of them are suet, but it is quantity, not the fat.
put it this way if you leave a restaurant with more in your doggy bag than you ate and others don't it is over comsumption.
true story, for about 6 months living in the US I couldn't understand why the tables are so high in restaurants, I feel like a child having to reach up, one day my husband said "oh look I get it, why the table are high, and they are high so fat people can actually get under them and eat?? next time you are out look and see, a normal size table makes it every difficult for a fat person to eat, as they have to extend their arms alot.

For those whom are interested here's a link detailing the history behind Victory Gardens. The way things are going with our food supply in this country I do believe that more and more people are going to try growing their own food, or at least part of it. I certainly hope so, it's a good idea.

Greg
Southern Nevada

The spectacular increase in obesity - all over the world, apparently, not just the US - is likely largely due to the shocking amount of soda people drink. Additionally, it's curious that the rate of increase correlates with the change from cane sugar to fructose corn syrup in the soda.

Soda, filthy trash-fed hormone-doused animal flesh, zero whole grains. It's a wonder that people aren't worse off. A testament to an excellent genetic base, I guess.

We track psyllids on PestServ here in Colo and know when they are coming and when they've arrived. Persistent lil buggers, surely. Anyway, I'm counting on semi-retirement income as someone helping suburbanites grow veggies in their backyards (with the new normal economy, it might be primarey income at this rate...).

Dan

The term "Victory Garden" was coined during World War II when it was patriotic to support the war effort in many ways, including growing vegetables in the back yard. Other ways of supporting the war effort were purchasing war bonds, recycling anything made of metal or rubber and conserving gasoline. Tin cans, for example, were flattened and taken to collection centers. Many foods, such as sugar and flour, as well as other goods, such as gasoline, were rationed. Nylon stockings and bubble gum were not available during the war.

Victory gardens were not token efforts. They were serious contribution to the food supply. My dad grew beans, corn, tomatoes, cucumbers (for pickles) and beets which my mother canned, along with huckleberries, blackberries, raspberries, peaches and plums. She canned these in quantities sufficient to supply the family for a year. And, of course, during the summer we had all those fruits and vegetables fresh as well as radishes, carrots, onions and summer squash.

Victory gardens were not government mandated, BTW. They were strictly voluntary as were the other ways of supporting the war effort. Only the rationing was involuntary.

I was young then but I have vivid memories of this.

Jim

Raybo: my time at CSU ended long ago but thanks for the thoughts. I assume you are using DDT to drive home a point as it hasn't been available in the states in decades.

Hey Dan: Do the psyllids still come up from down south as Dr. Cranshaw told me back in the 80's, soon after he arrived at CSU?

I grew up in the Fort, don't miss that place at all cause it is nowhere near what I grew up in.

michael,

What you DON'T want to see is this:

{{gwi:89364}}

These Bad Boys devour the leaves and produce this "sugar" like substance.

{{gwi:89362}}

Oh and by the way, if you DO see the above in your tomato plants, it is all over by then. Spraying is an uphill battle. Preventative steps before they get to this stage is the only remedy that will work.

Raybo

I'm bigger also. I lose some, gain some, the more I excersize, the more I eat, I haven't been an American Size 12 for years, I think your UK sizes run smaller, so you must be very tiny maybe about a size 8 American, but just guessing. I'm not very tall also, so the weight is all that much more on me. When I was a size 5, people called me Ethiopian, they don't like skinny women in America, most don't anyways.

The meat here is fed hormones to make the animals eat more, fatten them up for market, but it is transferred to people as well, they eat more because of the hormones. I can't blame my weight on eating meat because it's my least favorite part of the meal. I like the sugar and don't drink water, big part of calorie intake.

It's the eating, lying down afterwards, staying up all night confusing your daily routine, making you eat more thinking it's time for dinner for the next day. Not getting any sleep will throw you off and get you eating in the middle of the night. Once you become bigger, you eat to supply the normal calorie count you are used to, and then you keep gaining.

People eat a lot, no doubt, and if they made a concious effort, they could save at least 1/3 of their grocery bill each week if not half. Considering the global economic and supply issues, I wonder why no on in America really cares to make an attempt.

I was impressed that Obama, not my favorite or unfavorite person, grew a Whitehouse Garden, Queen Elizabeth II has had one out for the past few years, so even the big wigs are publicly making attempts to encourage Victory type gardens. It would be wise to take a hint, if it's one at all.

I researched Victory Gardens and basically they reclaimed unused property, the owners had no say so, for temporary gardens and supplied water at half price to anyone willing to pay for the lot for the year, the price then was something like 5 dollars. It must have been a nice effor though.

I've never noticed what size tables though, I'll have to take a look. My dad stands about 6 foot 4 inches, so I see the tables usefull for taller people. Several of my cousins stand 6 foot 5 or more. I'm the runt of my siblings at only near 5 foot 4 inches. We might find research on why the tables are like that somewhere, a restaurant would definitely prefer the hungrier bigger man to a little 110 pound woman.

I would imagine someone from Europe would not like American food. An American would feel the same, you guys over there just started to carry cookies and your peanut butter is different. Your pizza parlors sell quiche, I've never had quiche and I love eggs, but I would definitely prefer pizza. America wouldn't know what to do with a supermarket that sold rabbit or goat meat.

Interesting thread. Lots of good arguments for a moderate position here considering things like individual populations of pests and our dependency on pesticides/fertilizers to produce enough food to feed the world's population. Seems to me it could immediately relieve some of the pressure by people eating less (particularly animal products) and bringing fewer new mouths to feed into the world, including pets.

I have gardened organically for 20+ years, with a couple of exceptions. I use a dilute solution of all-purpose fertilizer for seedlings/small plants in pots and for houseplants; and use herbicide to kill invasive plants. I spend hours of grueling work pulling and cutting invasives like Buckthorn and Oriental bittersweet. It's hard enough work as it is and nigh impossible to control these without using herbicide. Mostly I use a squeeze bottle of concentrated brush/stump killer and apply it carefully to the cut stumps.

I grow only a few veggies because my lot is an open woodland and has little full sun, and wish I could grow more, but that can't happen without more expensive tree work. My veggies grow in the midst of a bird garden and the overall yard is very attractive to birds. They are constantly flitting and pecking through the gardens. Maybe they help to control any pests.

Thanks for the pics Raybo, those little buggers look familiar, glad I haven't seen them in over 20 years.

Hey Michael,

I've been raising Heirloom tomatoes out here in California for 21 years, and never had an infestation as I did this year, in all this time. Local newspaper claims this is the coldest Summer San Jose has experienced in 100 years, so I put some stock into the view that climate had a large part in providing the growth conditions that we've experienced this Season.

Hopefully, next year we will return to more "normal" conditions - but if we have a repeat, the Take Down Garden Spray will be applied at the BEGINNING of the infestation - I will not wait 4 weeks to commence treatment as I did in vain this Season.

Raybo

g'day oilpainter,

quick question how does the law you mentioned affect your farmers, conventional farming to me seems to exist solely due to many spray applications?

and g'day franktank,

yes i agree wholeheartedly, we need to go back to the past to get to the future, i remember as a kid when the farmer (lived locally) and delivered as fresh as produce a couple of time a week, or we went to the farm, about all they had to spray was natural pyrethrums no systemic applications. fresh raw milk delivered daily (we only had ice boxes no fridge), the chook farm was right there for fresh as eggs from free range chooks.

remember mum cutting apples open and cutting out worm damage, hey better for the consumer to have some waste than cause the farmer to spray. when all f&v was grown and sold in season and produce that was suited to the local climate.

even the butcher didn't use preservatives or flavouring and only sold the best cuts of meat no offal, bones given to people with dogs.

take care all

len

Here is a link that might be useful: lens garden page

"quick question how does the law you mentioned affect your farmers, conventional farming to me seems to exist solely due to many spray applications?"

The farmers still have access to controlled chemicals (stuff you need a pesticide applicator's license for). It's the off-the-shelf stuff that's limited for the most part.

gardenlen:

The law affects all users of pesticides, herbicides and fungicides, but it does give a little leeway for those that make a living that includes using these chemicals. The most dangerous chemicals have an outright ban.

Lawn care companies must find alternatives to all but a few of the least dangerous. The same goes for the ordinary Joe. We can buy round-up and green products and that's it.

Farmers have some banned products, but are allowed to use others. The same goes for golf courses(boy the latter got a lot of people's dander up)

Certain products are allowed in the forestry industry.

All the people who are allowed exemptions must take a course and be certified in pesticide use.

I'm sure I must have missed some groups. The whole point of the law is to cut down on so called "cosmetic chemical use" It is not designed to cut into people's livelihood or to make them less competative in world markets. The hope is that people will eventually find nonchemical remedies. I don't think we will ever be completely chemical free, but at least I won't have to hold my breath when I walk by someone's house who just had their lawn treated.

I have managed quite nicely for years without using anything more dangerous than round-up. I know there are lots here who say that's too much, but then they don't have my problem with quack grass. I used to spend days digging out of just about every cultivated place in the yard and I'm just too old to do it any more.

Some of the older orchard sprays would really boggle you. Arsenics.....

Raybo: you might look into whether or not the little buggers can overwinter in your area and if so, where they are likely to do so. If they can overwinter, be very vigilant starting early. It is likely that in their early stages of development they are more easily controlled and/or you can use light weight stuff to keep them in check like maybe an insecticidal soap. I really don't remember but, they might only be easy to control early in their development, how bout that, you've got some research to do!

The only tomatoes we grow are for processing into salsa and tomato sauce, do you have any favorites? I haven't branched out from Roma any further than Viva Italia (a hybrid), a fine processor. I prefer determinate types as it makes for a shorter processing season and we have grown ours trellised in the Florida Weave manner for about 10 years now. The trellising, combined with mulch about 4' wide under the row, keeps the plants off the ground and rain water from splashing disease onto the leaves, works very well especially with the drip tape for irrigation.

I happen to agrre with the mentality of not using pesticides. However I feel that there is much confusion about what a "chemical" pesticide is and what "organic" means.

Organic pesticides are chemicals too and can be highly toxic and some synthetic pesticides are relativley harmless.

Organic in the gardening world just means that the product was dirived from a natrual source. It has nothing to do with how toxic something is.

Organic Gardeners usually have a philosophy of using the least toxic option first but that is not a given.

Just remember that any pesticide is meant to kill! Therefore all pesticides are toxic.