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Fruit & Orchards

Grafting/buddy cherry to another cherry above rootstock

12 years ago

I picked up 2 sweet cherry trees (bing and black tartarian) from a local nursery. They are each grafted onto a rootstock. I'd eventually like to combine the trees together by grafting/budding the bing to the tartarian and vise-versa. Mostly I want to have this "multi-grafted" tree so that it's self pollinating (in case one dies for some reason).

The problem I see is that the rootstocks on these trees are only a couple inches out of the soil before the graft starts, so there is no room to graft/bud directly to the rootstock. Can I graft/bud onto the tree above the rootstock graft, or do all branches need to come directly from the rootstock to be successful?

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Comments (7)

murkwell
12 years ago
Yes, you can graft the black tartarian directly onto the bing and vice versa. People do stuff like that all the time.

Neither of those varieties is too hard to find though, so if you lost one of the trees you could replace it or graft it then. I suppose you want two trees both in production with both.
Matt (zone 7)
Original Author
12 years ago
Okay, great. Is there a disadvantage to doing it this way? Would the grafted limb be any better or worse off it was coming directly from the rootstock instead?

Yes, I know both are easy to find. I like the idea of having two self-pollinating trees. Also, it will be my first chance to try out grafting (something I've been anxiously waiting to try). I've read a lot about it and watched many YouTube videos, but haven't had a chance to do it myself yet. So, it's for practice purposes as well.
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margi: Growth on a Gisela rootstock should be expected to be slower than a semi-dwarf, but not as slow as you describe. Four years is too long to wait for any significant branching, but it may not have helped that the tree was also trying to fruit in this period. How are the leaves? Are they the normal, dark green color you would expect, and are they as numerous as they should be? Leaves are the best indicator of the health of a tree. Bark peeling off the tree, whether above or below the graft, is not normal, and yes you should be worried. It may be that the roostock is failing, or insufficently vigorous for some reason; perhaps the rootstock itself, or some combination of cultural factors. I planted my first two Gisela trees this past spring, on G5 and G6, and they were growing quite vigorously until the deer started stripping them. If I can solve that problem, I expect them to resume growth, although they are also favorites of various leaf-eating beetles here. But I also expect a fully dwarfing rootstock like Gisela to be touchier than the more vigorous semi-dwarfs, and to experience a higher incidence of problems. Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA
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Thanks folks, I was not worried that it would prove a health issue per se, more that it would prove a structural issue under wind stress. Although from a health perspective, I do have a hard time envisioning just how well the trees "pipes" run through such a change were it to become more severe? I am a wooden boatbuilder by trade, and if I were to put a rapid diameter change into a spar or other bending stressed piece....well it would be almost sure to break right there as a "hard spot" is created under load, which concentrates the forces applied to a single region instead of distributing them out. It would ease my mind if they did equalize over time. Fruitnut, why would you shy away from burying scion? For concern of disease issues being created by holding damp against the crown? Or because you would not want to lose controlling factors the rootstock provides? I ask because I have intentionally burried many apple trees deep below the graft, knowing they would self root. It is a practice sometimes employed in the far north for a number of reasons. But I have never heard of it being used with anything but apple.
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I have read that in this instance that people can do two grafts. The native variety being the most hardy and strongest rooting, then a short intermediary piece which can bridge between the native and fruiting varieties. Can anyone assist? Or know someone who can? I have cut down a large native cherry and would like to graft lapins and stella to the sprouts which are sure to come up this spring. "example taken from plum/almond stone fruit grafting" - " Also (and this is where the fun starts) most fruit trees in the Prunus genus are sometimes compatible with each other: almonds, apricots, nectarines, peaches, and plums all are compatible for grafting, but occasionally it's complicated. For example, some plum rootstock is not compatible with peaches or nectarines; and some almonds require an intermediate step before grafting onto some plum rootstocks."
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It's cut and dried if you can see the graft union. That's all that counts. But even if growth is from above the graft union, I'd question whether the trees are worth any further investment of time and money. Especially for a commercial venture. If it were just 1-2 trees I'd say take a chance.
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Tony
12 years ago
Doc,

I would not let any sprout from the rootstock to come up at all. Just use a branch on top about a pencil size and graft your dormant scionwoods to it ( use wedge or bark graft). Make sure you rub off all the new growth below your graft union because you want the sap to feed your new graft only.

Good luck.

Tony
fruitnut Z7 4500ft SW TX
12 years ago
Doc:

It would be difficult to graft directly onto the rootstock. At least it would for me. I'd do a whip and tongue onto a small branch higher up in the tree. But I'd chose a location that could by pruning be made to become a significant portion of the top as the tree gets older.

There are many ways to do this. You could try several, bark, cleft, and W&T just for grafting experience.
Matt (zone 7)
Original Author
12 years ago
Ok, thanks for the info. I just want to make sure that I'll get the same results from grafting above the rootstock graft as I would by grafting directly to the rootstock itself.
murkwell
12 years ago
You'll likely get a better overall result if you follow the advice given and graft the two cultivars directly onto each other instead of trying to perform some sort of exotic graft down below the graft junction or onto a sucker.

For your intents and purposes (the way you are asking) yes, you'll get the "same" results.

But if you are going to get into the excitement of grafting, why not find a friend or neighbor or somebody who has a 3rd or 4th variety and add those onto your tree? That's when the fun really begins.
Matt (zone 7)
Original Author
12 years ago
Yea, I'd love to find someone nearby with a different variety. Haven't yet, but I'm gonna keep looking.

Thanks for all the info!

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