Sic,

I also live in E. Kansas. Generally not much spraying is needed for non-bearing trees. Not many borers around here, for the trees you mention. Peach leaf curl is one you probably want to spray for. It can weaken your non-bearing trees. Need to get that spray on w/in the next month. Around here, about the only other pest I can think of that could cause your non-bearing trees problems is Oriental Fruit Moth. It lays eggs in twigs and kills the tips. It really doesn't hurt the tree much, but it makes it somewhat bushy. Scab and CAR can affect some non-bearing trees to the point it causes early leaf drop, but I've noticed that mostly on crabs, so I probably wouldn't worry about it.

If you have not yet done so, find the K-State extension bulletin on growing Fruit in Kansas. Local county agent will have it, and it might even be on line.

It is one of the best publications for a Kansas homeowner wanting to grow fruits. Answers just about any question you may have. And, your tax dollars paid for it. It is not organically oriented, but still very useful.

This summer, what you will be doing with your new trees is watering. Be timely and thoughtful about it. If your trees still have leaves on Labor Day, then you done good!

brian

Thanks for the responses.

What spray programs do you (olpea and brian) use, since you're fellow Kansans and in the same area? I was thinking of using copper-based fungicides or sulfur for diseases, and for pests possibly BT or maybe some of the other organic products like Pyganic and Surround.

Thanks for your input.

Sic,

Even though were in the same area, pest pressures may be different. I consider pest pressures in my immediate area to be very high, probably as high as those in the southeast. The problem is a lot of folks around here have unkept/untended fruit trees. One advantage is, I can look at the unsprayed trees to gauge pest pressure.

The biggest insect problems here, are CM (for pome fruits) and OFM (for stone fruits). Peach leaf curl is a big deal also. CAR and scab are the biggest issues for apple. Stink bugs are bad, but only cause catfacing. Copper will control PLC, but not as good as chlorothalinil. For CAR and scab, I would recommend disease resistant cultivars, if you want to go organic. Avoid varieties of peach that are highly susceptible to bacterial spot. Cherries (tart)seem to be a good choice for organic culture in this area. Pears suffer about 70% CM damage without spray. Apples are a no-go without spray.

With respect to the organic products you asked about. I can't tell you specifically how well they might work, because of all you've mentioned, I've only used copper. I can say that if your pest pressure is similar to mine, you've got a tough row to hoe. Whenever tested, organic products don't provide near the control as synthetics. For an organic solution, I would recommend bagging your fruit, as many do on this forum.

My spray program? I plan to start selling fruit once production is enough, so my goals are probably different than yours. People expect a much higher standard when they buy fruit, than growing their own. I talk with a commercial peach grower in our area, and he says folks won't buy his peaches even if there's a little scab on them. My guess is, you sell someone a piece of fruit with a worm, and you've lost a customer for life. So, I'm on a commercial spray program, about once every ten days, or can stretch it to two weeks, if the weather is good. Even so, I still found a couple peaches last season with OFM. I've traced the problem to a time when I went on vacation, and was a little late on spraying.

I agree in regards to the K-State info. My county extension agent gave me 3 booklets. They were great.

Yeah, in the past I had downloaded a couple useful pamphlets from KSU (namely "Fruit Pest Control for Home Gardeners") and it is quite useful, but still it never specifically mentions the "first year" care. I guess I could just assume that the first year is like any other, but I don't think there will be any fruit set the first year, which sort of negates the need for many of the sprays. I am still tempted to let the first year be a trial year and concentrate on keeping them watered.

One nice thing about this pamphlet is that it does have spray schedules for both organic and standard chemicals. Does anyone here have a good supplier for the various organic compounds, namely the "fixed copper," sulfur, Bt, etc.? I've done some google searches, and I've found some sulfur (and lime sulfur) suppliers, but I'm not seeing much for the others. Are there any local (to Eastern Kansas) stores that sell these products?

Thanks again.

Hi Sic, I am also in E Kansas and am considering planting some apple trees. I was wondering if you would share what varieties you are using. I would also use organic methods. Thank you

I certainly agree with what Brian and Olpea have stated. The link below will give you some good info. on copper fungicides like Bordeaux Mixture (the old standard) and fixed coppers. The only fixed I was able to procure was Kocide 2000, there is also a newer one called Kocide 3000. I got my Kocide from cooperseeds.com for $32.61 including S&H. If you up for an adventure in chemistry, you can make your own Bordeaux Mixture.

Here is a link that might be useful: Coppers

leasag,

I'm putting in a pretty extensive apple collection, with a few pears, peaches, and cherries. Here's the list:

Peaches: Contender, Redhaven
Pears: Seckel, Moonglow, Bartlett
Cherries: Balaton, Black Gold
Apples: Ashmead's Kernel, Cox's Orange Pippin, Empire, Fortune, Gibson's Golden Delicious, Goldrush, Honeycrisp (3), Hubbardston's Nonesuch, Hudson's Golden Gem, Jonagold, Kidd's Orange Red, Liberty, Macoun, Melrose, Mother, Newtown Pippin, Pink Lady (2), Esopus Spitzenburg.

So, there's a mix of heritage and newer varieties.

Hi Gloria: I was just looking at a site that sells what was formerly called Kocide 2000 (now called CuPro). Apparently, even though it is the same stuff, the label no longer has any fruit trees on it meaning it is illegal to use it on fruit trees. That kind of situation isn't uncommon. So if you want to buy any Kocide 2000, you might do so before it becomes unavailable. BTW, some states consider Kocide to be OK in organic certification programs while some do not.

Here is a link that might be useful: CuPro sales

Fruit trees are mentioned on the label. See p.6 of the label at the link you gave.

ramble: compare the Kocide 2000 label below with the CuPro label. The pear listed for CuPro is one sp. of ornamental pear vs the many european and asian pear spp. that are not ornamentals. Also, notice the Kocide also lists apple but that CuPro does not. I may be wrong but, I have a hunch the Cupro is a product legally intended for ornamentals. They are, however both 53.8% copper hydroxide, the active ingredient.

Here is a link that might be useful: Kocide 2000 label

I have a different theory. To find out what pest control needs you have spray nothing and watch. Learn to identify your pests and then you can begin to learn how to control them with the least amount of spray input possible.

County extension is very helpful once you begin to understand your pest pressure but they really don't tend to have very reliable information on lowest spray options in the home orchard. Why would they? Their info is driven by research in commercial fruit production.

I speak from experience. When I started my home and estate orchard business I went to Cornell for information but I found that I could control most pests with significantly fewer spray aps. than their guidance suggested. Insect and disease pressure multiplys with the number of trees on a site and 100 acres of apples will draw pests from a much larger area than a small mixed planting at a home. Plus home growers don't need pristine fruit.

You may have to control scab and cedar apple rust the very first season on your apples but if you use Nova or Eagle you can spray after first signs and still get reasonable control (they have kickback). If your peaches start to get flagging shoots (oriental fruit moth) you can react by spraying the tips with Sevin before things get out of hand.

Keep your eyes open for frass at the base of peaches and quickly dig out any borers with a wire or even a knife before trees are girdled. Or put down some moth balls and cover with dirt up the first few inches of trunk.

I forgot to respond to the comment about higher residues from systemics. I am aware of no research that backs up that very logical theory about systemics leaving a higher level of residue. Pesonally, I believe the residue phobia is completely overblown and the main risk comes from exposure during mixing and application.

It is amazing to me how the public has embraced this fear of agricultural residue and yet are relatively sanguine about much better established dangers of industrial pollution. The air people breathe in cities contain proven carcinigins at many times the rates of what we encounter in any of the food we eat. Our homes contain pollutants from products that poison the air and that we pick up from our skin, etc etc etc. but it is the things we put in our mouths that we focus on. Poor farmers.

Hi Harvestman-
I tend to agree. If you don't know what your pests and diseases are, you need to find out, and the first leaf is a good time to do it. Though, to start getting comfortable spraying, perhaps you could spray some trees for what you local extension says the pests and disease are? And then leave some other trees as the guinea pigs?

I've heard the term pesticide "kickback" before, and from your context it sounds like it works right away, and perhaps the plant could even heal its damage a bit? Is that what kickback means? I always thought that once you had a blemish in the leaf or fruit it was impossible to revert. Can you clarify?
Thanks as always,
-Glenn

Yes, kickback means that at the very least, innoculum can be present on the plant and the fungicide will be able to eliminate it for a certain amount of time after infection. I have found that even when symtoms already appear I can apply a rescue spray to minimze damage with SI fungicides. I assume Nova has pretty extended kickback against CAR simply because when I use a 2-spray against it (starting at petal fall) I sometimes get a little CAR on the leaves but it goes nowhere and causes no real damage. Against brown rot on plums and peaches I have rescued fruit that already had rotting fruit touching it and could actually find dried out lesions on fruit a couple days after spraying. For that I use the SI systemic Indar.

The kickback that I'm describing has not been described in any literature I've read. Cornell lists several classes of fungicides as being affective post-symtom for scab, however. These include dodine (Syllit), fenerimol (Rubigan), Procure and Topsin M. and myclobutinol (Nova). Myclobutinol is the only one of these I have experience with. Topsin M is rated by Cornell as even stronger post-symtom than Nova on scab. I don't know if CAR has been studied to the same depth.

Hi Harvestman-
I tend to agree. If you don't know what your pests and diseases are, you need to find out, and the first leaf is a good time to do it. Though, to start getting comfortable spraying, perhaps you could spray some trees for what you local extension says the pests and disease are? And then leave some other trees as the guinea pigs?

I've heard the term pesticide "kickback" before, and from your context it sounds like it works right away, and perhaps the plant could even heal its damage a bit? Is that what kickback means? I always thought that once you had a blemish in the leaf or fruit it was impossible to revert. Can you clarify?
Thanks as always,
-Glenn

Not sure why/how my msg got posted twice. Weird. Anyway, thanks for the info Harvestman! -Glenn

Gloria: here is a picture I took on 6/16/08 of one of my apple leaves with CAR on the upper leaf surface (the yellow orange blob). You can find mutch better pics of CAR on the web but I needed some practice posting a picture within a post.

{{gwi:62564}}

Michael

Harvestman,

Regarding extension services, we have the opposite problem. Since Kansas has relatively very little commercial fruit production, the local extension personnel tend to offer pretty basic information, stuff you'd read about in any entry level fruit book. There are some commercial research farms for fruit and nut production. Obviously those folks are pretty good with commercial production. But, since most people around here are more interested in lawns/landscaping, that's what the local extension focuses on. They also recognize most home growers give minimal/no care to fruit trees, so extension publications tend to recommend the easiest care cultivars, rather than superior fruit quality. I don't think this is isolated to KS either. Several years ago, I looked at some of Missouri's extension materials, they were so outdated they were recommending cultivars that weren't even available anymore.

That's not completely different than NY even though there is a lot of information about commercial production because the apple industry is still fairly important here. However, info directed to home growers, particularly published literature, tends to be out dated and not all that informative in its time.

The point I was making primarily is that the landgrant universities have a mandate to research, inform and promote commercial agriculture but not the same level of mandate or adequate resources to advise home growers with research based info. The research isn't there. That's why sites like this are so important even though the info isn't research based in terms of controlled studies. Most of the experienced growers here have a lot more experienced based knowledge on growing fruit than any extension horticulturist you're likely to find.

http://www.johnnyseeds.com/catalog/product.aspx?category=292&subcategory=315&scommand=page&qstateid=a0f51b04-7726-403b-adca-02cbcbf2a9cc&sp=4&item=9642

Johnny's Seeds has Kocide 2000 and 3000, as shown at the link above.

I like Harvestman's wait and observe approach to determining what pest and disease pressures will arise, but I know that CAR will be a major issue in my area. As such, I intend to use either or both sulfur and copper compounds for apples and pears. I am going to try to organically orchard, so I think these two substances are the major weapons against scab and CAR. I've read that using copper after a certain point will russet the fruit, so sulfur may be the way to go in latter applications.

The orchard owner nearby uses Bordeaux on his apple trees, I think. Is that preferrable to applying fixed copper?

As far as sulfur, there is lime-sulfur, wettable sulfur, etc. Is there a preferred one, or one that is simpler to use?

Do you use NuFilm 17 with these substances?

Thanks for the input.

Gloria: not to be a bummer but, your best defense going organic with CAR will be planting resistant trees from my experience. From what I've read, the sulfurs won't work very well against CAR, in addition they shouldn't be sprayed when the temps. get above 85-90F (I think) or they will burn the foliage. They can be washed off easily leading to freqent sprays which is O.K. if you have the time and the weather cooperates during the infection periods (wet weather). Between resistant trees and very diligent organic methods you might do fine, I don't know, but I heartily applaud your effort. Keep us informed. You will learn what does and doesn't work for you which is what it is all about. Oh yes, I have benefitted enormously from having a digital camera with macro capabilities. The plant pathology lab @ K-state accepts images for diagnostic purposes.

Olpea: have you seen the link below? Probably applies better to your local than mine in the NC part of the state.
It is for commercial growers but highly educational if one can comprehend it. I had to print the beast out and poured over it for hours referencing other materials in the process.

Here is a link that might be useful: 2009 Midwest Tree Fruit and Spray Guide

Michael,

Yes. It's a good publication.

Mark

Hi all, I mantain about 35 fruit trees for family and personal enjoyment. I do not know if this is absolute or helps, but, here is what I have learned mostly the hard way. Properly prep a hole to plant the tree(s) and pay attention to the required depth for grafted roots. This means alot toward tree health. Also find a nursery that grows their own trees localy and buy your trees from them. For whatever reason the mail order trees that I started with were prime targets for deer and all other pests. My localy bought trees do not draw pests or deer to any great degree. My only guess is that they are aclimated from birth against most pests. As for spraying I use Dormant oil each spring and follow with this mix: 1/2 cup 'raw' milk, 1/2 teaspoon backing soda, 1/8 cup Dormant oil, per gallon. Be careful of sulfur as it can burn the young tree growth. Learned that the hard way, too. By localy I mean as close as possible within your state. I buy from one three counties away. Best regards.

pagardner,

All you use is dormant oil?

I believe the burning from sulfur may be due to application in a certain humidity and temperature range.

Hi Gloria, I use Dormant oil properly mixed with water for the first spraying when temps stay above 40 overnite. Later I use the mix of raw milk, baking soda, and Dormant oil for the balance of the season. Dormant oil is a smothering agent and 'sticker'. Raw milk is loaded with natural anti-bodies and nutrients. It may be that bugs do not like the smell of milk and move on. Other pests just may not tolerate the milk anti-bodies and the oil may smother fungi as well. Got the recipe from an 80 year old orchard man. Other recipes, too. I used to use an all.in.one such as fruit tree spray, but came to find out that carbaryl is a fruit thinner and reduces flowering, too. Learned that the hard way as two trees formerly very productive stopped flowering four years ago, coming back now. Disapointing. Also, fire blight can sometimes attack young trees. It is done by bees pollinating the young tree flowers. Might I suggest pinching the flowers at least the first year or two. The bees cannot pollinate what ain't there. Zestar is Very susceptible to blight, pink lady too. Learned that the hard way too. Also read All lables on store bought materials. Less is more with them. Best regards.

pagardener, while your spray sounds like it could work for some diseases, I don't understand how that is going to help against the bugs. Don't you get a lot of worms in your apples?

I also take the wait and see approach to decide what to spray; initially I started with zero. Every spray I do was needed. The only disadvantage of that is you get an initial "bloom" of the disease or bug that you then have to fight back hard. Last year was my brown rot bloom - never had much at all for seven years and then WHAM!

Scott

Just read through the post, "Interesting article on spray oils" posted by Thomis 7. It states that and oil + baking soda mix is useful for powdery mildew. Dr. Crenshaw, the author, is an entomologist for CSU last I heard.

Michael

Hi, fruit worms have not been a problem, apple, cherri, or peach. Had one peach tree that gathered brown rot, a fungus. It was highly stressed in that two years earlier it had been a prime target for secada. Secada bite in to lay eggs under the bark, then the larva move through the tree towards the roots and spend 17 years there as a parasite. Pulled the tree and replaced it. Peaches are really tough, alot of work. Ants love 'em for sap and to spot every peach on the tree. Bayer Advance takes care of them. Feed 'em to death. Yellow jackets can be a problem,too. As stated above the milk formula must make the trees taste or smell bad. There is another formula that I tested late last year. It is a mix developed by myself and an old orchard man. It has picked up the nick name "Black Magic" by others testing it. Not ready for market yet. A truly organic all-in-one.
I would not take the wait and see approach. With fruit trees you have to be proactive. Bugs send out scouts, if scout returns happy it brings the whole family. To each their own. Best regards to all.