Hi Thomis-
From your pictures, IÂm not sure IÂd classify yours as a hobby orchard. Wow!

I feel your pain. IÂm pretty much in the same boat that you are. IÂve struggled to learn all I can about home-owner style apple spraying in the last 1.5 years. Check out my plan for next year via the link below. I too missed the fall dormant oil/copper spray, but IÂm just going to deal with it. BasicallyÂ

For CAR: IÂm going to do 2 sprays of Ferbam (Yes, I was able to get it. Might as well check all your local hardware stores!) on some of my trees. 2 sprays of Immunox on other trees. Really, this is an experiment to see if the Immunox will work as well as the Ferbam. Then, in the future, I can recommend it to people (like you!) When? Bud-break and Petal fall as per JellymanÂs recommendations.
For Scab: 2 sprays of dormant oil and Kocide3000: when the trees first go dormant, and then just before bud-break.
For Insects: IÂm going to bag my apples. And, maybe while your trees are young, youÂll be able to do the same. And, that will give you time to learn about all the insect sprays.

If any part of this plan proves ineffective, then I will modify it accordingly for the following year. But, since effectively, the Bondide spray was doing almost nothing, it will have to be better than past years.

Good luck!
-Glenn

Here is a link that might be useful: cedar rust and copper

Tom,

Here is a link to MU (posted below) that has a lot of information on homeowner spraying and various pesticides supposed to be available to anyone. Notice all the links on the left.

Here is a link of the late Tom Vorbeck's recommended spray schedule:

http://www.applesource.com/growtips.html

I've no comment whatever on the effectiveness of these programs for your circumstances, but thought you might find the links of interest.

Here is a link that might be useful: Homeowner spray link

Thomis-
Note: In reference to the link that Olpea provided, Myclobutanil for CAR is the active ingredient in Immunox, Nova, Eagle and probably others.

Below is a link IÂve shared before. Look at the table on page 3-3. Note: IÂm thinking the Bordeaux copper that they list in that table is different than Kocide copper, because others here have had good luck with Kocide controlling scab.

Good luck,
-Glenn

Here is a link that might be useful: Virginia Tech - Home Fruit: Disease and Insects: See page 3-3

OK, I don't know where you live and your spray issues are going to be greatly affected by your location but here's my spray schedule for the scores of orchards I manage around SE NY.

No dormant oil- do an oil spray somewhere between the point where emerging shoots are 1/2" and the flower clusters begin to show pink. Mix Nova (myclobutinol) at highest legal rate with 1 to 2% oil. If it's closer to pink use 1%.

Don't spray again until petal fall when petals have mostly gone from latest flowering varieties and bees have lost interest. Than spray Imidan + Nova + Captan mixed together at highest legal rates. Repeat in 10 to 14 days.

Where I manage orchards, the space between earliest flowering Japanese plums and latest flowering apples is only 2 weeks or so which usually allows me to wait until the latest flowering trees are ready to begin spraying anything. Plum curculio seems to time its appearence conveniently to the rythm of the last flowering varieties. This may not be true where you are.

Sometimes it leaves me with plums too far along to spray oil by the time I do the apples and Euro plums sometimes get mites because of this- so you may need to spray oil on different trees at different times.

If you can't find or bear using Imidan- an organiphosphate that is restricted in a few states, you best use Sevin instead but add an extra spray and apply at about 7 day intervals.

All this is based on plum curculio being your primary insect problem which is the case most areas east of the Mis. River. These sprays will also absolutely control scab, CAR and Mildew as well as most of the crop fatal insects. Apple fly maggot is an exception, but I haven't had much of a problem with this pest in the orchards I manage. This pest can be controlled with a lot of fake apples smeared with tangle trap.

If you don't want to use synthetic chemicals, you will probably have quite a battle on your hands. You'll probably have to do at least 4 applications of Surround about a week apart.

Stone fruit will require the addition of another fungicide application or 2 (Indar) starting 2 or 3 weeks after final insecticide spray.

Because I manage so many orchards so far apart I have to resort to a spray schedule that is based on expectations rather than actual monitoring. You may be able to reduce insecticide sprays with monitoring but PC are quick and sly.

Other problems may occur later in the season and you will in time learn to monitor and react to the pitfalls.

Good luck, Alan Haigh- The Home Orchard Co.

Thanks Alan, thats helpful to all of us. Do you think the @pink dormant oil is so good that you don't need to do a dormant oil at all?

Thomis, what I have done is to start with the minimal (just dormant) and then add sprays the next year if I needed more the previous. It sounds like you already need the CAR treatment (Nova). The first year you will have fruit add the sprays for insects. Beyond what Alan mentions, you being further south will likely find fireblight much worse so you will probably need to spray for that. But, you can wait until it shows up. Do keep a lookout for the crookneck shoots throughout the growing season.

Scott

Glenn,

Regarding your spray schedule, I would think you will have problems with curculio on the very young apples in the period before you bag them unless you use some kind of insecticide or repellant. Last year, on my first crop of apples, I sprayed some Imidan I had managed to find and then bagged the apples a bit later when they had increased in size. This, I think, is Jellyman's practice. Imidan is no longer sold for the home fruit grower, but I think permethrin may be available to play the same role and does not pose the same problems re mites that Sevin does (maybe Harvestman could chime in on this). Personally I prefer to avoid spraying stuff like Imidan if I can avoid it, so this year my plan is to start spraying Surround at petal fall and then bag the apples once they get to a baggable size with plastic sandwich bags. The bags worked pretty well last year. Their main problem was that if you just cut off the bottom corners they will tend to stick together at the bottom and produce too much condensation, leading to rot. So this year I will experiment by cutting of the whole bottom straight across on some of the bags and see how that works.

I am hoping that CAR does not rear its ugly head, but I suspect it will, since we have a lot of red cedars around here and my Enterprise apple got a small amount of it last year, even though it is meant to be resistant. Interestingly my William's Pride showed no signs of it at all. This may be one pest that I will have to use more powerful stuff to control down the line.

Glenn,

Just an update to my last post. I had forgotten that permethrin is not registered for use on apples after petal fall -- just when you need it.

Austransplant,

It's been my experience permethrin is as hard on mite predators as Sevin.

Every year I've had a problem with pear blister mite. Last year, I saw a small pear tree leaf out with the tell-tale signs. I had read pyrethroids can cause mite outbreaks, but I wanted to see what would happen, so I sprayed the small tree with a pyrethroid. The mites took over so bad, it almost killed the tree.

But I think it's dependent on individual circumstances. Around here commercial peach orchards can be sprayed with a pyrethroid almost the whole season (with a few alternating sprays of Imidan) and have no problem with mites.

For those interested, there is a pyrethroid available at Walmart, called Triazicide by Spectracide. As I recall, it has a wide label for fruits and can be sprayed after petal fall, but check the label to make sure.

Oil is used to help control mites and scale here and the reason I time the application after half-inch green is this is when they become most vulnerable. It is also possible to do a 2-spray and include oil in first insecticide spray. WITHOUT CAPTAN! You may need to add another fungicide such as Mancozeb or Flint to delay resistance to Nova.

Pear blister mite can be controlled with a single true dormant application in my experience. The mites quickly occupy growing shoots and become immune to oil or poison once growth begins. This is just a problem on pears which may also need several oil applications (sunspray) to control psyla. Psyla can be a huge problem because people usually fail to notice it even as their pear trees stop growing and producing fruit. If you have a lot of yellow jackets buzzing your pear trees before fruit ripens you probably have psyla.

Olpea,

Yes, there is literature on the web to the effect that permethrin, like Sevin, kills predatory mites, leading to mite outbreaks later. I do not know, however, whether this is the reason that permethrin is not listed for apples after petal fall.

For anyone interested in the dry details, Triazicide's AI is Gamma-cyhalothrin.

Hi Austransplant-
I saw your post a couple days ago, but was swamped with a 4 year olds birthday party, and now work.

Good point on the dreaded PC. You know, itÂs really strange, but I have not yet noticed PC here in my yard. Perhaps itÂs because my trees have been small (so far, harvest has been under 20 apples per year) so as not to attract the attention of PC yet? I know it is indeed a pest for my local "u-pick", and IÂve even been looking out for it. Last year, I did see some {{gwi:59099}} which looked like it had been attacked by something like a PC, but it didnÂt have the characteristic half-moon shape. Notice the pristine apple in the bag to the right Thanks Jellyman for convincing me to bag!

So, normally PC attacks the apple when they are smaller than dime/quarter -sized? IÂve just done a bit more researching and came across a link which says basically says: For PC: "multipurpose spray mixture (captan, malathion and cabaryl) or Surround at petal fall plus 10 to 14 days after petal fall". Well, thatÂs essentially what IÂve been doing in the past by spraying the Bonide, and so many thatÂs why IÂve been somewhat protected. IÂve been very upset with Bonide saying that they treated CAR, when they donÂt, but it sounds like they may have been protecting me from PC. Since I still have some left, perhaps I will use it up this year with the 2 sprays recommended above. Does that sound like a reasonable plan? Or would people really recommend Imidan instead?

My 2nd Ferbam spray will be at pedal fall. I wonder if I can mix the multipurpose spray in with it?

I too find condensation to build up in the bags, but I hadnÂt yet noticed a rot problem.

When you spray the Surround on such young apples, is it off by the time of harvest? Even when bagged? Or do you still have to wash off patches of it?

I had the same response to CAR with my Williams Pride. No CAR damage at all. Not even a single leaf blemish. Amazing! My Enterprise did get it a bit, but probably not enough to hurt it much. So, far, CAR has been my toughest foe. At least this year, through Ferbam or Immunox, IÂm hoping that I kick its butt, instead of the other way around.

I really like talking about all this stuff now, because if you try to learn it all in the spring, at spray time, you donÂt have a chance. It takes me all year to digest this stuff!

Thanks again for your input.
-Glenn

Glenn,

I agree with you on the value of these forums. Detailed information on what to spray, especially in regard to insecticides, is usually glossed over in the various books and web articles aimed at the home grower. You may well have foiled the curculio with your spray program last year. I think there are different views on this. I know Don Yellman thinks the Bonide sprays are pretty ineffective on curculio, but I have a neighbor who sprayed his nectarine with these and he had no curculio problems, and there is certainly curculio around here. Imidan is no longer available for home users, though I've seen old stock in some stores -- usually the more old-fashioned stores. It is very effective, but the government deems it bad stuff to be used around the home.

This year will be my first shot with Surround. I plan to spray at petal fall with surround and repeat until the apples get big enough to bag, and then bag them and forgo further applications of Surround. Probably the apples will have some clay on them, but most of the apple will have grown after it is bagged so I don't expect a lot of clay will need to be washed off. My main concern with using Surround is that it does not really kill the curculio and that they will descend in larger numbers on other fruit I don't spray (like cherries). I'd be interested to hear Scott Smith's experience in this respect. I am expecting it will take some years before I hit on a system that produces a decent yield of fruit and minimizes uses of 'heavy duty' chemicals.

Thomis: hang in there, I'm not the brightest bulb in the pack but through alot of work have learned alot that has been and will be very useful for growing apples and pears. There is an enormous pile of info. out there and it was a laboroius chore to distill it all down to where I have it now. There will be more to learn as learning (hopefully) never ends. If you want to see a 72 page volume on spraying fruit trees look at the link below. Yep, there's alot to absorb and some may be repetitious for you, some may not apply. I printed it out and studied it for quite a while.

All that I will say about pesticides is this, the labels are absolute. If you read about one, look up it's label on the web and check it out. I haven't run across one yet that I couldn't find on the web. I have avoided some after reading their label thoroughly. Sometimes you might find one you want to use, like Bonide's Mancozeb, that used to be available over the counter with a label for apples. With some research I found the same %A.I. stuff available now called Penncozeb 4FL.

Here is a link that might be useful: 2009 Midwest Tree Fruit and Spray Guide

Austransplant, I haven't noticed the curculio in cherries; not sure why. They love plums and peaches though, so if you have any of those you will need a plan there. I end up with a fair amount of curc damage but those fruits get thinned and there is still a full load left. The Surround does cut down on the numbers by reducing the amount of feeding, breeding and egg laying, which then reduces the numbers. I think the most important thing about using it is keeping the coverage. A light rain may not dent your coverage by much at all, but a hard rain which lasts for a whole day will take you to nothing.

Scott

Hi Harvestman-
I'm trying to understand part of one of your posts above:

Oil is used to help control mites and scale here and the reason I time the application after half-inch green is this is when they become most vulnerable. It is also possible to do a 2-spray and include oil in first insecticide spray. WITHOUT CAPTAN! You may need to add another fungicide such as Mancozeb or Flint to delay resistance to Nova.

My question is... what is the meaning of " WITHOUT CAPTAN! ? Are you saying you can't mix Captan and oil? or can't mix Captan with certain other things?

I've had quite a few questions about which sprays can be mixed, so maybe I'll create a new thread for that. Thanks,
-Glenn

I'm even more confused now! Any simple list somewhere?

Oil is not compatible with Captan. It is very compatible with Nova, providing the advantage of relocating to growing shoots during rain. Nova stays put, being a systemic and is very affective against CAR, scab and mildew but if used alone scab may eventually build resistance. It has never built resistance to Captan but Captan has only half the staying power (less when it rains)of Nova and no kickback which Nova has.

Captan even sprayed too close to an oil application causes damage to the leaves and sometimes fruit drop. I've never seen the damage done when sprayed simutaneously but it must be very bad.

Thanks Harvestman. That's good to know. I donÂt believe IÂve run across that warning before. It may indeed apply to me because I was at least planning on spraying those two sprays as close as 2 weeks apart (closer if weather got in the way?) :

For Scab, and scaling insects, I was planning on doing (what should be my 2nd, but possibly my only) spray of Kocide 3000 and dormant oil just prior to bud break in late march or early April. But, I now believe my Bonide All Purpose Spray has been what was protecting me from PC. Since I still have some left, instead of switching to Imidan this year, I was planning on spraying it at petal fall (and then again 10 days after petal fall). As you know, the Bonide does have Captan in it, but I believe itÂs in smaller amounts?

From looking at my pictures (which are dated), it looks like the difference between budbreak and petal fall is a little over two weeks plus or minus. Would you agree that this is enough time? What would be the closest you would ever spray the two together?

ItÂs interesting that I donÂt see this warning on neither the
ÂBonide Fruit Tree Spray Concentrate label nor the ÂBonide All Seasons Horticultural & Dormant Oil Label .

Thanks again for all your advice.
-Glenn

Glen and Milehigh,

Midwest Tree Fruit Spray Guide used to have a chart showing compatibilities of orchard pesticides. I don't see it in the 2009 edition. See if you can find an older edition on-line. If you can't, I'll try to post my copy here. Not sure exactly how to do it, so someone may have to coach me.

I have sometimes suffered some phototoxicity apparently from applying oil between 10 and 14 days following Captan. The label of either the oil, Captan or both clearly warns of incompatibility but there is no written indication that residue from Captan could create a problem this much later. Only certain varieties, particularly Tomkins King have had this kind of response to so late an interval between Cap and oil- also pears are particularly sensitive. Oil probably wouldn't leave as lasting a residue-it evaporates very quickly, at least if you use some kind of summer oil. I like Purespray.

The 10 to 14 day interval for PC protection is for Imidan only. Most other available materials will require a tighter interval and at least an additional spray unless you are very attentive or lucky. Imidan is exceptionally rain-fast for a non-systemic. The manufacturer doesn't even recommend a sticker.

As far as historic PC protection results, you never can be sure what your chemicals are doing for you unless you see the PC in your orchard and then spray. In recent years in the Northeast PC has become somewhat less predictable on some sites based on my observations. In 2 of the last 4 years I have seen unsprayed sites produce apples without PC damage. These are large trees with lots of apples.

PC often leaves the russeted old-strain Yellow Delicious alone as well. Too bad I don't much like them although they're a lot better than the new strains. PC disagrees with me and attacks those newer strains.

Imidan is not nationally restricted and the government is stearing its use away from homeowners because they don't trust them to follow the label. It now has a 3-day REI, probably because it can be tracked indoors, especially off a dew covered grass. Once it is brought indoors it is almost as durable as DDT, outside it breaks down quickly. I wouldn't do any hand thinning of fruit until about 2 weeks after a spray myself which is very inconvenient. On varieties I'm almost sure will overcrop I remove a lot of flowers because I don't use chemical thinners.

The Imidan label says not for residential use but according to code I now believe this means indoors, from what I read while studying for certification renewel. I called the NYDEC and was told that it is OK to use in resedential areas. In NY it is restricted to commercial applicators unless you are a commercial grower. In CT it is sometimes available from suppliers catering to commercial landscapers and is not restricted. It can legally be sent through the mail 1 package at a time. I can even have it sent to NY from another state even if I don't prove I'm licensed to use it here. Of course it would be illegal for me to use it if I wasn't licensed.

GlenRussell, Oil and Captan will burn the leaves like shot hole, but it is not critical before bud break. In mid summer when OFM are at the peak, I get a little shot hole on the leaves from the Fruit tree spray.

Hi Harvestman, TheAceOfSpades-

I did find the warning that you were talking about on the (pure) Bonide Captan, though not on the Bonide Fruit Tree spray (which contains Captan), or the Horticultural oil: "Captan should not be used in combination with or closely following oil sprays" Thanks for the tip!

In Harvestman's post, he talked about spraying Oil after Captan, but in my case, I'll be spraying oil before Captan. I wonder if that will make a difference?

Anyway, based on what the AceOfSpades said, since I'm doing the oil at bud break, and the Captain in the diluted quantities at starting pedal fall, it sounds like I'll probably be OK. Anyone disagree? I may have even done this last year.

Thanks for all your help guys. I learn a bit more each day.

-Glenn

Why bother with Captan at this time? Is it based on experienced difficulties or merely concern fueled by recommendations based on commercial fruit production?

I have found an application of Nova with my delayed dormant oil spray followed by the before mentioned post petal fall sprays completely controls scab and CAR in the northeast in home and estate orchard settings.

It requires a certain leap of faith and willingness to accept some risk to find out what the minimum applications are. University based studies frequently do not apply to non-commercial scale production. If you begin to see signs of scab or CAR you can always reduce damage with a rescue spray with an SI or Strobe fungicide (they have kickback). By a month after petal fall these fungus seem to have run their course (although I've been told otherwise) and a little scab doesn't seem to multiply even without a rescue mission, at least in the northeast.

Hi Harvestman-
Just back from a weekend in VT.
Why the Captan? Neither reason. ItÂs because IÂm cheap! ItÂs because IÂve got remaining Fruit Tree spray (which contains Captan) which I want to use up. The Fruit Tree spray has other ingredient which I believe have been protecting me from PC, and want them to continue to doing so. Also, IÂve changed about every other aspect of my spray routine, and IÂm ready to stop researching and start applying, and see how the results work out. In the following spring, IÂll probably look for a more precise way to control PC. Thanks again for all your responses! - Glenn

Thank you all, for your words of experience. I learned a lot on this thread. I think I have a good handle on what I'll try this year. I'll post results after the harvest season, though I probably will only let a few apples on the trees, this being only their 2nd full growing season.

Thanks again,

Thomis

Good morning folks,
I have to say, This was a very informative thread, which I've re-read a few times over the past 2 weeks. However I still have a few questions regarding PC control, so I've decided to bump it. There have been mentions of Permethrin, Carbaryl, Imindan, etc, but I struggle which product to use and would take any suggestions from the folks here. My challanges include the following:

1) Unable to obtain Imindan

2) Carbaryl - Easily obtained, however past posts indicate mixed results against PC. Additionally, the Sevin labels states that it should not be used after petal fall due to the risk of fruit drop.

3) Permethrin - Easily obtained, however I have not been able to find a product locally that is rated for fruit trees.

I would prefer a spray that is rated for apples, pears, and peaches to minimize the complexity of my program. My plan is to initially spray and then bag my apples and pears as I did last year (but with no spray last year the PC claimed the best fruitlets ansd over half the potential crop), but will need to continue the spray program for the peaches.

If there are other products worth mentioning, please do so. Your thoughts and advice are appreciated!

Thanks,

Chuck

Yes, Sevin thins your fruit, that's one of its advantages. if you use it on a tightened schedule it should provide adequate control- spray at highest legal rate. It probably washes off more easily than Imidan as well, requiring additional sprays following rain. Contact the manufacturer for details on this.

If you search google you may be able to get Imidan mailed to you. It is not nationally restricted and I have found sites that will even ship single bags to NY NQA. In NY, agricultural use of the product is unrestricted so the whole control is pretty porous. It is a PIA to use in small quantities, however. It also stinks to high heavens, which doesn't make discreet illegal use something even an outlaw can recommend.

Chuck, I got Permethrin from Millers, called Borer Miner Killer. The back label lists for PC on Apples and Peaches. I just use it for borers with Nu-film 17 to keep it stuck on the tree trunk. I use Borer moth traps for timing the spray. PC have a short and mild season over here. I get PC control with routine Fruit Tree Spray.

Here is a link that might be useful: Millers