On the topic of alpine succulents:

I have grown them in various mixes from store bought peat mixes to the gritty mix. I also grow them on a layer of gravel over clay soil in ground. In all cases these plants are outside year round.

What i have found is that in the summer or any time temps are warm the potting mix (or ground soil) isn't of major importance. In the winter/early spring it is.

I have had a lot of plants winter fine and then rot in late winter/early spring no matter what they are growing in.

This is due to cold rains common in Wisconsin. To put it plainly, the 'secret' to growing alpine succulents is partially in the mix as they never like wet feet, but even more so it's preventing them from getting wet over the winter. A fast draining mix that doesn't hold a lot of water is a good idea, but...

Most of them can tolerate and survive a fair amount of wetness and a lot of cold, but few/none can survive the combo of cold and wet. They do best when sheltered from snow and early spring rains. Even in the gritty mix many will rot if I don't protect them from the early spring rains when temps go back and forth between freezing and thawing.

That's a good point. Because mine are in dish gardens that only weigh around 50-75 lbs, I overwinter them by moving them under cover in an unheated garage for the reason JaG mentioned, not because of the cold. We do get the same rains and cold as he, though .... just a day later. ;o)

Al

So justaguy - down here in South Florida the potting soil shouldn't really matter? Also, can a layer of granite grit be laid down on top of whatever soil I use for decorative purposes?

You can certainly use a decorative layer to your heart's content. I am hesitant to say that in S Florida the potting mix doesn't matter much.

What I will say is that my personal observations are that alpine succulents like hen and chicks do well with much more water than one might think in summer. They don't need it and in fact their color will change depending on the amount of water and fertilizer. Many consider their appearance best at near starvation levels for both water and nutrients, but that is a personal thing.

I will also say that I have not had any trouble growing them in any mix or even clay earth during the summer. They are very hardy/adaptable in my experience.

It's the cold plus wet that kills/rots them faster than lightning.

So, since I have zero experience with S Florida growing I can only offer what I did above and leave you to your own decisions.

Interesting observation justaguy and thanks for your notes. Its funny that you should mention experience with S Florida gardening, I just spent a solid hour with my local garden center guy. His thoughts:
-SW Florida is so very different that even SE Florida, and Florida North of Tampa. And radically different from gardening anywhere up north (where he and I both hail from and have experience with). He strongly advised against lime and gypsum suggesting that there is so much down here (even in the rainfall...?). But he suggested that epsom salts are a great idea.
-In general he scoffed at a non-peat based soil (a topic I know is in here and I will have to find but did not have on hand to show). He basically suggested that everything down here is backwards (the best season for perennials for example is oct.1 - may. 1) He's a great guy tho and has been gardening down here for a long time and HIGHLY suggested at least trying it though and tinkering with it as needed, something that he said he's been doing a long time.
I've also been really getting into the fert. thread a lot and asked him about that. He was raving and raving about espoma for feeding pruposes, (http://www.espoma.com/p_consumer/tones_overview.html) a product line that I know has been mentioned here not in this fashion I dont think. anyways it seems like its been suggested here that the reason for shying away from organic ferts is mainly b/c there is a lack of the necessary bacteria needed to facilitate the process. One of espoma's 'big claims' is that a lot of their products contain that bacteria. However they don't have a 3-1-2.
- finally, when mixing in soil additives that are not part of the basic inorganic/organic matter... do they need to be mixed fully or can they be placed on top? (eg. epsom, crf's, etc.)
-oops - one more thing... still having a bit of trouble finding the bark from gritty mix. Any brand names to look for? And could the granite be red? I found a 'chicken-grit' product that they tell me is granite but is a redish pinkish color. Is this ok?
Thoughts guys? As usual, any responses are so very much welcomed.

I'll touch a few points: You should invite your gardener friend here for a conversation & we'll put him to the test. Based on the things you mentioned, I'm thinking he might not know as much as he thinks. Anyone who simply dismisses a conifer bark-based soil out of hand is ill-informed or worse.

I'd really like to have a visit with him to discuss the liming thing. He's off base. Even if the rain in FL WAS alkaline, which I seriously doubt, it would take a long, long time and lots & lots pf rain to supply enough Ca to bring the pH up high enough that there would be a residual fraction in the soil available for uptake.

Any organic (carbon-containing) portion of fertilizers depends on soil biota to break the organic molecules down into elemental form so they can be assimilated by the plants. If the soil biota is absent. or their populations low, which is extremely common in containers, your plants cannot assimilate the elements locked within the hydrocarbon chains. Some people insist on trying to make it work, but if you are hoping to optimize results with minimal gnashing of teeth and the highest chance of success, it's going to be very difficult to beat a 3:1:2 fertilizer as your all-purpose choice. You can increase your versatility range of the 3:1:2 simply by adding some Pro-TeKt 0-0-3 when appropriate if you wish to reduce the N supplied w/o creating deficiencies of P/K. Your call though.

If a person knows what they are talking about, they will never suggest you simply "add some Epsom salts" or tell you they're a great idea. Adding singular elements to your plantings can cause many problems. Epsom salts will do no good whatever, unless the soil is deficient or you are adding them to counteract a skewed Ca:Mg ratio. Adding Epsom salts w/o adding Ca can easily cause a deficiency of Ca, so be very careful.

Usually, anything you add to the soil is best applied in solution if it's soluble, or incorporated (not broadcast atop the soil) into the soil when you make it. This is particularly true of CRFs because their release rate is tied to temperature and a sun load greatly increases the rate, which can be a particular problem when ambient AND soil temps are high. You generally don't want to fertilize when soil temperatures are averaging above 80* - especially not with urea-based fertilizers.

The red 'granite' is likely cherrystone (quartzite). The red color is from ferric (iron) oxide (aka rust) in the stone and it's fine for the gritty mix. It's what I'm using now, and if it matters, makes a more attractive soil, IMO.

FWIW - some growers add a layer of white granite on top of the soil of many woody species. It helps reflect the light to the lower leaves to help prevent the plant from shedding them due to their being shaded out.

Al

Dobbers,
Which part of FL do you live in?

Shannon

Shannon~ I'm in Naples

Justaguy~ I forgot to ask, where in Wi? (I miss it sooooo much, but have zero desire to go through another winter) Also, in rereading your big post, I noticed you put 'alpine succulents.' it was my understanding that these are to very different areas of plants. I've always taken alpines to mean plants that grow above the tree line, and succulents to mean more desert like plant forms (my definition of succulents could use some work. I know it has been here ad nauseam and try my best not to do reposts). I'm looking to eventually do a hanging basket succulent piece, but right now I have a perfect square hypertufa I made and what to give some New Zealand alpines a shot.

Al ~ I've said it once, and I'll say it again... You are the man. I'm plotting a course of action to best deal with Mike. He is the second 'knowledgeable horticulturalist' that I've spoken to about this, and both times I got those raised eyebrows and dismissive tones... 'well, you really gotta be careful about the internet...' is how it started both times. I'm crediting this to what is probably a lack of ability on their parts to be able to sift through garbage and valid discussion on the web. Anyway, Im thinking about printing the main 'retention' page and the 'fertilizer' page and taking them down there. I'll see about getting Mike to post on the main thread.
-never ending questions-
- I notice you suggesting leftover turface fines for hypertufa projects, any ratio?
- is this: {{gwi:48415}} a 'shimpaku'? its gorgeous!!! standard gritty i suppose?
- espoma's lime product looks pretty good to me, will it work?
- Al, you mentioned earlier, "I would back off on the gypsum in the gritty mix, but I would still lime the 5:1:1 mix to ensure there is a residual fraction of Ca available after the reactive phase. Optimizing: you MAY want to add MgSO4 (Epsom salts) regularly though, if the Ca is in your water at more than 4x that of Mg." Just to double check, epsom in the 5:1:1, right? and when adding regularly, just put it on top of the soil?

- any preference for a rooting hormone brand?

-if anyone has any interest in adeniums at all, I encourage you to check out the amazing hybrids they're doing with A. arabicum and A. socotranum: http://www.siamadenium.com/
They have an interesting soil recipe and growing instructions right there on their homepage, and I was interested in thoughts if the same growth can be achieved with 'gritty mix'. Also, if anyone is interested in getting in on some sorta 'buy in' for some seeds from these guys I would be very interested in going in with you, they have a $100 minimum. Let's talk.
As always, thanks a ton... I'm sure I'll be tapering off soon here with all the questions, I need to get to work!!

You are correct about the 'many microclimates' of FL. You are just a bit south of me, so please send up some of that rain =D

Where were you able to find: "The red 'granite' is likely cherrystone (quartzite)?"

That is one proper ingredient I have had difficulty getting fairly close by. Though, I'm sure there are many more feed stores closer to the interior of the state. :)

[Work at 2am: yucky!]

Shannon

* Use your Turface fines to replace sand, Ratios vary from recipe to recipe, so I can't offer one that fits all

* The picture is not a J sargentii, but rather a Japanese black pine (Pinus thunbergii).

* Espoma lime is fine, but you can buy 50 lbs of the same stuff for the same price as the Espoma. You gotta pay for their advertising, you see. ;o)

* No Epsom salts necessary in the 5:1:1 for at least the first year. The Mg is covered in the lime. The Mg fraction of the lime is much more soluble than the Ca fraction (125x), so you may have to use Epsom salts if you press the 5:1:1 mix into more than a single growth cycle.

* Rooting hormones are often plant specific, or, different strengths of the same active ingredient are often required. (There are 3 basic chemical hormones that are available in different strengths). I have several formulas, but rarely use it; and when I do, I look up what product is required for THAT hard-to-root plant.

Al

Justaguy~ I forgot to ask, where in Wi? (I miss it sooooo much, but have zero desire to go through another winter) Also, in rereading your big post, I noticed you put 'alpine succulents.' it was my understanding that these are to very different areas of plants. I've always taken alpines to mean plants that grow above the tree line, and succulents to mean more desert like plant forms (my definition of succulents could use some work. I know it has been here ad nauseam and try my best not to do reposts). I'm looking to eventually do a hanging basket succulent piece, but right now I have a perfect square hypertufa I made and what to give some New Zealand alpines a shot.

I am in Watertown, equidistant between Madison and Milwaukee.

By alpine succulents I was referring to hen and chick type plants: sempervivum, jovibarba, arachnoideums etc. More generically I was referring to plants able to go long periods in completely dry soils while also being able to handle regular water in the warm season but that die with great speed if they get much moisture when it's cold.

BTW, Dobbers. I know that tree you pictured. It's part of the national collection @ the arboretum in Wash. D.C.

JaG - I have some tiny, tiny semps - no bigger than a pea in good soil - I can only imagine how much more growing them on a rock or on a board would dwarf them. The guy that owns Arrowhead Alpines here in MI gave them to me to try. I'll share if I ever get the Impatiens squared away.

Al

Shannon~ Ill get to work on my weather skills right when I finish redoing all my plant containers!! BTW - where are you finding the bark product for the 1:1:1? I found my grit at a farm feed store right here on 951. Where are you? maybe we could meet half way and do a trade or something?

Tapla~ Do you have any suggestions for a resource about rooting hormones and which plants work best with which?
~any thoughts on a good mix for air layering?

also guys, please take a look at my grit's that I came up with, the red one is the pinkish granite I mentioned in an earlier post. The lighter one is a 6/20 silica I picked up at the store that had turface.
{{gwi:48416}}

Thanks again guys

The granite is good. The silica is too small to be ideal in the gritty mix, but you really won't need it with the Turface & granite.

An excellent text for a great overview and plenty of specifics re. all forms of propagation is Hartmann and Kesters work, Plant Propagation - Principles and Practices ISBN #0-13-679235-9. The ISBN# is for the 7th edition, so if you decide to purchase it, check to see if there is an 8th or even more recent edition than this 2002 work. Unless you can find it used, you should expect to be separated from > $125, though.

Al

Great Al, thanks again. Ill look into that book. A buck twenty-five is steep for me right now, season starts in a couple of months and that's when the dough comes in. In other news, I happened in on one of our local fertilizer center today and spoke with someone who seems very knowledgeable and may be joining our discussion in the fertilizer thread real soon.
Hopefully this is the end of my product related questions, im sure its not something you want to do. I just can't afford to make any more mistakes and start/stops. I opted out of the espoma lime and went with this: {{gwi:48417}}
and for the bark the best I've come across is this, its pine btw:{{gwi:48418}}

oh yea... they tell me the pine bark is 3/8" minus. Thanks guys

Looking good!

Al

Hey guys, I have a couple of quick follow up questions:
First off, I've only been able to track down the dyna-gro 7-9-5, I special ordered the 9-3-6...but it's going to be a few days. I used the 7-9-5 once, is this gunna be a major problems.
Secondly, for screening the turface I fashioned a screening tool by sewing some fiberglass screen to a real heavy-duty coat hanger that I pulled into the square. The problem is, it seems like I could screen turface all day and still have a few particles sneaking through here and there. At what point is the screened turface ready for use.
Thirdly, any suggestion for which mix bamboo would work best in? I got some cuttings of black bamboo and currently am trying to get them goign in the 1:1 chopped sphagnum, screened turface. But what up when they get going?
I know I had a few other ?'s but, thats all for now. Thanks again!!

Here is a picture of my tool ->
{{gwi:48419}}

Dobbers,

Hey I like that cool screen you made. You should patent that thing! Looks like it will do the job just fine.

As for screening, I'm not sure what advice to give. The last bag of turface I picked up was almost pinkish-red in color, similar in color to the grainite photo you posted above, and contains a lot of fines. I'd say at least 1/3 to maybe 1/2 of the turface is fines and falls though the screen. Previous bags have been more tan in color and contained roughly 1/4 to 1/3 fines.

Al may feel differently but I'd say as long as you remove the majority of the fines you should be OK. Just how much the "majority" is might be up for debate however.

Looks like you are doing great!

Good luck.

I'm apparently still looking for proper grit material. I was able to find Fafard pine fines, but I guess they only come aged. I've still no luck on grit. I did find a place not too far away that could order 6 5# bags for $31.50+, quite expensive for the stuff I understand...So,

Shannon~ Ill get to work on my weather skills right when I finish redoing all my plant containers!! BTW - where are you finding the bark product for the 1:1:1? I found my grit at a farm feed store right here on 951. Where are you? maybe we could meet half way and do a trade or something?

I was able to find pine for the 511 (I thought it was OK for grit), but everything down here is a perennial if it's taken care of, so... I still don't even have proper grit bark. BTW: How much did you pay for the grit?

I live in Englewood. Just North of Port Charlotte/Punta Gorda, just South of Sarasota... I have to travel down towards RSW in September to pick up my SIL... I'm not sure what you don't have. It took me so long to respond and now you seem to be in great shape as far as the ingredients go... Just let me know. I'll gladly get anything you've had trouble with getting (if I can find/obtain it). Turface was actually the easiest for me and the sifting yielded very little fines...

Thanks for the offer
Shannon

PS Maybe while you are replanting, you could do the rain dance until you have honed your meteorological skills =D

If anyone want to pay shipping and handleing for the finest bark fines you can get, especially for the gritty mix.

Then look up Tindra Orchards, they have plenty...I am starting to feel mighty bad for all those here that are having such a hassell finding fines..Hope this helps..

I have 5 bags from them, cheap for me, because I live just 50 miles from them, but maybe you can talk shipping with them and get a deal...They know me quite well, and said they would help those out that are in need.. I hope they hold their word..They should.

Maybe I'll have to try that... In FL, pine fines are just seen as breeding grounds for all of our great bugs (or so I've been told). Even the grit though? I know we have cattle and horse ranches towards the middle of the state, wouldn't they keep chickens too? =D

Thanks for the offer, and I will keep it in mind. There is at least 2 of us who live in my town, plus a few in a city just north of here. We should all go in together and get the good stuff if we can't find another way.

Not sure in MI where you live, but I was planning a trip up there to see family this summer, and it just didn't work out...

Thanks
Shannon

Shannon,

If you're still having problems finding pine bark for the gritty mix soil, you might try looking for fir bark as a substitute. It works just as well as pine bark and, possibly, even lasts a bit longer in containers without breaking down.

Small bags of fir bark can usually be found in pet stores and are sold as "reptile bedding". I have used this fir bark in containers without any problems, just as good as pine bark in my opinion. It's typically pre-screened and the particle size is usually within the limits that Al recommends for container use.

The only downside is the cost, which is quite a bit higher than pine bark here in Michigan. However, if you only have a few plants that need the gritty mix, then it might be a good alternative until you can locate pine bark.

The link below is for one brand of fir bark, but there are many other similar brands out there. Most pet stores should stock this or something similar, or at the very least be able to order it for you. Of course, if shipping costs are reasonable, you can order online and save some cash as well.

HTH

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: Fir bark description

The bark I am referring to is fir bark...

He sells huge bags for a great price. Cheaper than several smaller ones combined.
But the shipping might be a bit pricey.I would find out how much you get and see if you could still save if shipped in a good bulk than buying smaller bags and paying the same if not more price..
If I think of it, I'll post a pic of the two sizes I have to see if is wgat you need..:-)

Thanks guys! I appreciate your effort and input very much.

Shannon

Shannon~
I definitely have a good hookup for the pine bark. I would be interested in the granite @ 31.00 for a 65# bag. Maybe we could work something out.

The crazy lady that I got my grit from told me that she'd give me a break on her large 25# bag (she sells it for $1 a pound otherwise) then I get over there and she screwed me into telling me that I have to pay $25 for a 25# bag...so 30 + for 65# doesn't sound too bad.

Btw - I am still putting some of my perennials into the 511, b/c figure I'll move 'em after a year or two anyway. But a lot of other stuff Im using the 111 for.

If you want to get together it would have to be soon. I'm leaving for a month next Friday... pretty much shotgun, i didnt know till the other day. Central America, here I come

I guess I was misunderstood. The only grit I've been able to find costs $31.50+ for 6, 5# bags. Same price as you paid... Sorry! I've been told that price is craazy! So I'm still looking for it.

I'm thinking a trip up North is sounding cheaper in the long run for just about everything (except the turface). I've got family in Ohio & Michigan I could visit for some supplies. LOL!

I probably won't be heading that way until after you leave :(. Where did you find the uncomposted/non-aged bark?

Shotgun huh? Getting married in Central America? =D

Shannon
BTW: your rain dancing is not working properly yet

I cant believe that its not raining up there, we are gettin it every day, sometimes twice a day. It was dry for soooooo long tho. Theyre talking about the first big storm taking shape right now so we might all get it real soon.

Married... I'm sure she would love that, and her parents, and hell my parents too... anything for grandkids, but no, vacation.

I was up in Wisconsin in May, but via plane. I would love to drive up in late sept. and am still considering it.

Im sure that we could get all the coral rock and seashells we want for super cheap. In fact, I've tried calling those places more out toward the middle of the state and they all use crushed shells for chicken grit so, good luck.

Btw, when I read that you live in Englewood I remembered reading this the other day:
http://fortmyers.craigslist.org/chl/grd/1307464044.html

Pick some stuff up for me if you go!!

oh yea... pine bark fines:

American Fertilizer & Supply Co
5615 Kathleen Ct
Naples, FL 34109-1945
(239) 566-7800â
Only three buck for a big big bag. Plan extra time if you come down, Terry is the owner is super awesome but you will be chit chatting for at least an hour. Everyone knows him around here. BTW - they also have huge bags of perlite for about 12 bucks a bag, if you go w/ any 511.

Shannon,

Yes you can get the granite at any feed store. I just bought a 50# bag of Gran-I-Grit here in Michigan for about $6.00+tax. A 5# bag costs $1.50.

No reason to pay those ridiculous prices. Any town nearby with a rural feed store should have granite (aka "growers grit").

HTH

Dave

Thanks Dobbers! What kind of plants would you like from Alyssa? Let me know and I'll give her a call.

I've had great assistance in searching for the darn grit. But, like dobbers said, round these here parts, oyster shell is much easier/cheaper to come by... I guess I'll have to dig deeper into the interior of the state =D. I am gonna keep trying!!

I've been using the smallest peastones I could sift. Not perfect but useable. Then I found out that my pine fines were aged, and wouldn't work for the grit properly... I can be such a goofball sometimes. I couldn't even find the Tindra Orchards you mentioned upthread.

There is another person in Englewood on this forum. Maybe I'll have to contact her again. Thanks for everything!!!

Shannon

Englewood sounds like a cozy little place where everybody knows everybody...and seem to amazingly all get along! What I was really looking at was the Bamboo, one of my latest interests. I can email her and find out what kind she has tho, thats what im really interested in.

Good luck w/ the granite hunt. Please let me know if you find a dealer. Ill keep you posted if I drive up to Wi next month as well, k?

Good luck!

Is this feed store near Englewood?
I am sure there is someplace close to you with Gran-i-grit.
Ward

Here is a link that might be useful: Feed store near Englewood

Thanks, bamboo (hopefully not lucky) was also something of interest for me.

Is Naples not so nice? Everyone (I thought)seems a little more laid back down here, especially those of us that have to summer here as well. We're just a sleepy o'l fishin village =D

I'm gonna keep hunting, either for grantie, cherrystone, or another alternative. Hey maybe we should invent one!

Have a great weekend
Shannon

To be honest, I don't like Naples too much. I've come contact with so many rude people, especially business owners since I moved here.. I don't know, Im so much more used to friendlier group of people. I wish it wasn't like that, but don't get me wrong... there are some real gems. And usually they are the friendliest people ever. Its weird, since living here I meet people that have been to Milwaukee and I hear the same thing again and again, the city is super clean and the people are super nice. Maybe I'm just homesick. Well Ill keep you posted!

There are places close to me with granite but in up-north standards, we'd pay a pretty penny for it!

I swear to goodness that your post was not there earlier, when I was writing, Ward. Thank you for the info though. I shall look into it. Ft Myers is about 45 or so miles from here. Not too bad in the big scheme of things, but I have a 2 year old who'd prefer shorter distances: maybe babysitter =D Woo hoo!

Dobbers, I am truly sorry about the homesickness! I have lived down here since I was 8 years old but MI still calls now and again. Naples is kinda like Sarasota, where the richest snobbiest people can and do reside. I think sometimes that can generate the unfriendly's, if you understand what I mean...

Hopefully, if you 'need' to live here you will find the friendlies. There's lots of us to go around.

Shannon

If anyone is still having problems finding granite for containers, the best option is contacting a local farm feed store, as mentioned earlier in the thread.

If there are no such stores in your area, you might also try contacting stone quarries, cement manufacturers, landscape suppliers, etc. Quite often these types of businesses will have crushed granite or something similar in a size that might work in containers.

Far as I know, there's no reason the grit actually has to be granite, so other similar sized, dense stone should work. If you absolutely cannot find anything else to use, you could probably use pea-sized gravel or uncoated aquarium gravel in your containers if necessary, provided the particle size was close to the range Al has described.

As a test, I have one container that uses a mixture of fir bark, turface and pea gravel. So far the tree in the container is growing very well and seems quite healthy. I used pea gravel rather than granite in that container on purpose to see what would happen. So far I have not noticed any adverse results even though the gravel varies a bit in size and is larger than what Al and others recommend. The tree is growing nicely and has several large white roots protruding from the drainage holes. Drainage appears to be very good.

Please note: I've only tried using pea gravel in the gritty mix for growing a single woody plant (a concolor fir) which does not need very much water, so I have no idea how this would work if you tried to grow other types of plants.

My best advice is to continue looking for grower-grade granite for the gritty mix, but if you can't find a granite source in your area you might be able to substitute other types of stone if necessary.

HTH

Yeah, finding stuff down here is crazy! I've been using the smallest peastones I could find but my bark isn't right, it's aged. Doesn't look aged to me but that's what it said on the bag...

Good JOB on the rain dance!!! That's twice today, with that being three days in a row. Be careful though, we would rather not have too many big storms brewing at once. Thanks Dobbers, hope things are going well.

Shannon

Al, What do you think about the Miracle Grow potting mix? I have used it a few times. I also have bought just the regular cheap potting soil and have emptied soil from old pots and used. My tomatoes seems to thrive whatever I put them in. I had a great crop this year in containers with just the regular potting soil. I added some old grass clippings that I had raked up out of the yard.

You asked ..... I don't like it because it's expensive, too water retentive out of the bag, and moves quickly along the path to collapse. I wouldn't add grass clippings because they break down quickly, compromising drainage and aeration, especially in out-of-the-bag peat-based soils, and as well, cause considerable N immobilization.

... but if you feel you're getting good results, why change anything? I would point out though, that a very high % of those reading the soil threads are nerds (tongue in cheek) & like to talk about soils, or have come here seeking solutions to the problems they encounter(ed) while they were using soils/mixes like you describe.

Al

Looking for Gran-I-grit and the feed stores are clueless and only sell oyster shell in SW Florida. Seems like everything I get involved in I have to hunt over God's creation to find the items, and dealing with people that are clueless and look at you like you're an alien asking for said items. Having same problem with the coarse sand. I have heard builder's sand is still too fine. What grade of sand is what will work and will turface substitute both gran-i-grit and sand, as I am able to get turface "All-Sport" from John Deere Landscaping here in Sarasota.

If you must use sand, why don't you look at local pool supply stores?

I am sure that Florida must have TONS of pool stores..Look for the course sand that like Nancy whom lives in Florida uses...I think she has great success with it. In fact, I also think that she has found all the ingredients that you are looking for..:-)

Ask specifically for pug on the forum here or at Cactus and she will gladly help you. Have you ever seen her plants? Wow

Mike

That's 'Puglvr'. ;o)

I found a place on FL's right coast that had branch outlets. They sold a crushed river rock that would have been the perfect size for the gritty mix, but I can't find the thread via a search - don't remember the name of the place, either. Does anyone remember it, or have the thread saved? I THINK it was somewhere around Port St Lucie or Boca Raton.

Al

Hi Guys,
Here's a link to the place Puglvr/Nancy got her stuff in Florida.
I hope it helps. She also told me she belives the size is 6/14

Here is a link that might be useful: Silica Sand/ Florida

Yes I called them before posting in this thread this morning. They are a bit far like 2 1/2 hours from where I am and they checked and gave me a lead of a local masonry place that uses their products. I called the guy and he said he needed to order multiple pallets and would not be able to get me any. Back to square one...

Sorry to hear that didn't help. :(

A pool co. here called around for me, and gave me a lead to a gentleman who sells sand blasting supplies. I haven't had a chance to get out to see him yet, but maybe thats an option.

I understand your frustration.. i'm having trouble here too. Every feed store in this town thinks im a nut. LOL!

Also have heard to try roofing supply co.'s.

Good luck,
JoJo

http://www.fsscompany.com/cgi-local/products.cgi?group=aggregates&category=FILTER%20MEDIA&subcategory=GRAVEL&family=GRAVEL&mode=display_items&reset=1280890432

http://www.merchantcircle.com/business/FLORIDA.SILICA.SAND.COMPANY.954-923-8280

http://www.merchantcircle.com/business/FLORIDA.SILICA.SAND.COMPANY.954-923-8280

Thanks Meyerlike but like I said just a few posts up I called them already and they are in central Florida 2 1/2 + hours away from me.

The second and third links you left are even further.

{{gwi:48421}}

No freaking way...

Also Meyermike, those links to that company you listed only sell 6/20, nothing coarser for sand... I called and that's what they told me.