btw - i've read extensively the lengthy posts on this subject and was more lost that I was before. Al and Ted's extensive knowledge is impressive but for me the specifics and subsequent application are tough to pin down.

I think I got it now on night two, sorry everyone... False alarm

I agree that the Hyponex is a horrid soil - period. I've used it in talks as an example of just that, a bad soil, pointing to and demonstrating its extreme water retention and lack of aeration. If you have specific questions, I'll do my best to answer them, but if water retention is an issue, I think you'll find your answer in the move away from peat as the primary component of your soils to pine bark. Your only real challenge would be in finding a product fine enough to suit your conditions.

If expense isn't an issue, you could also go with a 2/3 mineral soil with Turface and Granite making up the 2/3 and uncomposted conifer bark as the remaining 1/3. If properly made, it's pretty near impossible to over-water this mix and it's an extremely long=lasting and productive soil. I use it for all my houseplants (including cacti/succulents) and woody plantings - the material I feel will be in the soil for more than a year or two.

Al

I have had success with potting soil that is made from 1/2 compost and 1/2 local soil, by volume. Our compost is made in our own pile, so I know that there are no herbicides, because we don't use any herbicides in the garden or on the lawn. For what its worth, we have a slow compost pile, and finished compost takes 18 months to be considered done.

A mix of topsoil and compost is almost certain to be too water retentive and lack sufficient aeration to allow plants to grow at close to their potential genetic vigor. It would have drainage/aeration characteristics similar to the Hyponex that Dobbers is having such problems with now.

Al

Stay away from soil-less mixes containing bark because they are of unreliable quality.

A good premix is Sunshine Mix # 1, see

http://www.bfgsupply.com/UserFiles/2008Catalog/5_Soil.pdf

from

http://www.bfgsupply.com/content/catalog.asp

If you want to save money, mix together by volume 75% peat moss and 25% coarse pearlite. Even without lime to raise pH, most plants will thrive in this mixture provided that you supplement normal fertilization with calcium nitrate. The price of peatmoss is currently $5.87/2.2 cubic feet at Menards in the Chicago area.

Stay away from soil-less mixes containing bark because they are of unreliable quality.

That's a pretty broad generalization that I'm not sure has much basis in reality - there are good and bad formulations with any premixed potting soil regardless of base ingredient but to dismiss ALL bark-based mixes as 'unreliable' is a bit of a stretch. And certainly does not match my experience or those of a good many others.

And FWIW, the Sunshine #1 is more suitable for seed starting or the initial potting up than it is for long term or full season container culture. Peat as the primary ingredient (especially at a 75% volume) is extremely moisture retentive and will compact quite rapidly, reducing aeration and obstructing good drainage.

You won't go wrong following Al's advice and following his recommendations for a high quality, long lasting potting mix. He is easily the most knowledgeable individual on GardenWeb with respect to the details and intricacies of container culture - just visit the Container Gardening forum to view the wealth of information he has posted over the years and the testimonials from scores of container gardeners who have followed his suggestions and advice to great success.

I have to agree, Gardengal. The advice to stay away from container soils with bark doesn't hold water when cross-referenced with what we know about those soils. Had he said "Stay away from soils with hardwood bark, heartwood/sapwood, or 'forest products' as a significant component", I would say he's on the right track. He paints with much to broad a brush.

Additionally, a soil of 75/25 peat/perlite might be ok for short term plantings, like seed starting, but it certainly would have inherent problems, not the least of which would be accelerated structural collapse. Additionally, toxicities of several micro-nutrients, the most likely being Fe/Mn, plus aluminum are probable in the soil suggested (peat/perlite) unless it's limed.

As (I know) you know, Pam, It's difficult to beat a container medium with a properly sized conifer bark as it's base along with appropriately small amounts of peat & perlite to fine tune its aeration/water retention.

Al

"Additionally, a soil of 75/25 peat/perlite might be ok for short term plantings, like seed starting, but it certainly would have inherent problems, not the least of which would be accelerated structural collapse."

What valuable structure does bark have? Peatmoss structure is good for at least one growing season. Peatmoss lasts longer if it is not neutralized with lime. Otherwise, many plants will become rootbound and need repotting after one year anyway.

"Additionally, toxicities of several micro-nutrients, the most likely being Fe/Mn, plus aluminum are probable in the soil suggested (peat/perlite) unless it's limed."

There is less than 1% Fe in perlite which is relatively little. I have only heard of fluoride phytotoxicity from perlite. My plants have flourished in unneutralized peatlite. That would not consistently happen if "probable"

"there are good and bad formulations with any premixed potting soil regardless of base ingredient but to dismiss ALL bark-based mixes as 'unreliable' is a bit of a stretch. "

I didn't say "ALL". I said "mixes" which is a bare plural and, as such, no "all" is implied. I was being intentionally vague because I tried several brands of mixes with bark, including Miracle Gro mix, and all were terrible compared to peatlite with which I have never had a problem. In other words, I stopped looking for a good bark mix and I suggest others do the same.

Bark is rich in lignin and suberin. When compost is 'finished' nearly all that's left is lignin, and suberin is lipid often referred to as natures waterproofing for plants. Size for size, and all else equal, conifer bark breaks down at 1/4 - 1/5 the rate of peat. Additionally, the larger size of the bark particulates provide greater far less surface area than peat on a per/volume basis, which extends structural integrity far beyond the 1/4 - 1/5 rate based on an equal particle size. This means not only far greater media macro-porosity and a reduction in the superfluous water retention inherent in aging peat or compost-based soils, it also guarantees those things for far, far longer than peat. That should answer your structure question. If you want me to recite what % of air porosity @ container capacity makes a good soil, and compare the starting air porosity of a peat or compost-based medium vs one bark-based s, I can do that, but it won't make your recommendations look any prettier. ;o)

When you learn the difference between Fe and Mn vs compounds of F (F is not found naturally in elemental form, btw) I'll explain why the Fe/Mn, in soluble fertilizers, and naturally occurring Al can easily be found in container media (which already have a very high Fe:Mn ratio) at toxicity levels due to the extremely low pH levels you'll find in the unlimed peat stuff you suggest is a-ok. That you were unable to think through this assertion, and challenged it based on something totally unrelated (the fluoride presence in perlite) is a fair indication that you're in over your head.

You're waffling on the 'mixes with bark' thing. I think everyone takes from this specific (not vague) statement "Stay away from soil-less mixes containing bark because they are of unreliable quality." that if it's a soilless mix and it contains bark, it's to be stayed away from because it is unreliable. I was being polite in saying "you paint with too broad a brush" when what I was really thinking is, "Man! That's ridiculous."

A VERY GOOD, well-proven bark-based container medium:

by volume
5 parts pine bark fines
1 part sphagnum peat
1 part perlite
dolomitic (garden) lime

An extremely durable soil that will retain its structure indefinitely. I use it for houseplants (including cacti/succulents), all my woody material, and other long-term plantings:

equal parts by volume of:
uncomposted pine bark fines
screened Turface or NAPA floor-dry
crushed granite or cherrystone (Gran-I-Grit in grower size or #2 cherrystone)
gypsum

Al

I was hurried when I wrote the above. The first sentence should have read: When compost is 'finished' nearly all that's left is lignin and suberin, a lipid often referred to as nature's waterproofing for plants.

I also should have deleted the word greater in this sentence soon after: Additionally, the larger size of the bark particulates provide greater far less surface area than peat on a per/volume basis, which extends structural integrity far beyond the 1/4 - 1/5 rate based on an equal particle size.

I'm sorry if anyone read the post & was confused by my typos.

Al

I just wanted a good potting soil...

That is also what brought me to this group. The pre-made, bagged soils weren't working, did some research and now I've got a few bins of "stuff" to make my own 'soil' for each plant I have.

Much cheaper this way and the plants seem happier so far... The old bags of garden soil and compost are now being worked into my sand pit (old raised garden bed). Since you also live in FL, you know what kind of 'dirt' we've got (or not :))

To put things into pots and into perspective, I occasionally reread this article because,... well, it has a sense of humor.

Happy planting
Shannon

Here is a link that might be useful: The Secret to Soil Revealed

Size for size, and all else equal, conifer bark breaks down at 1/4 - 1/5 the rate of peat. ... That should answer your structure question.

I already conceded that peatmoss lasts one year, and yet you continue on this theme without first addressing my statement that many plants become rootbound and need to be repotted after one year anyway. Incidentally, size for size, all else equal, styrofoam breaks down at 0 the rate of peat. I don't use it because it doesn't add enough weight to hinder plants toppling over outdoors.

When you learn the difference between Fe and Mn vs compounds of F (F is not found naturally in elemental form, btw) I'll explain why the Fe/Mn, in soluble fertilizers, and naturally occurring Al can easily be found in container media (which already have a very high Fe:Mn ratio) at toxicity levels due to the extremely low pH levels you'll find in the unlimed peat stuff you suggest is a-ok. That you were unable to think through this assertion, and challenged it based on something totally unrelated (the fluoride presence in perlite) is a fair indication that you're in over your head.

I didn't challenge it on fluoride presence. I challenged it on the empirical evidence provided from my personal experiences. You did not address my empirical evidence. Only a fool puts his theory ahead of empirical evidence.

If you want to suggest a brand of bark based premix for me or the OP to test, fine. Otherwise, you should state the brand of "pine bark fines" because the variance in species of pine selected by the manufacturer is the likely cause of unreliable performance. In contrast, all peat moss is sphagnum.

Incidentally, I intend to experiment with replacing perlite with parboiled rice hulls (plus unneutralized peatmoss).

I've got a few bins of "stuff" to make my own 'soil' for each plant I have.

What "stuff" did you chose?

I think the jury has enough evidence to decide who knows what they're talking about & who's trying to obfuscate, so I'll leave it at that. There would be no end to arguing with you, even if I pointed out the folly in your further offerings on a point by point basis. It's obvious you'd continue the current pattern, which is to seize on impertinent minutia and expand on it in order to cover an already demonstrated lack of knowledge and experience re. container media.

Al

I started with MG, bought more perlite, then vermiculite, then turface, got some sphagnum peat moss, no, wait, peat first then turface. Oh wait, I'm sorry, when my DH got the giant bag of turface, I had to go get larger bins.

After reading 1050+ posts about the pine bark, I wanted to play with that too...=D So besides the small (and a couple large) bags of stuff, I have bins full of turface (PRO'S CHOICE SOILMASTER SELECT), sphagnum peat moss (Fafard & MG), rough gravel (I dunno the brand), pine bark fines, minus the fine, fines (also Fafard I believe), a few pounds of Dynamite CRF (green Foliage and Shrub), Lesco 20-20-20, and a bucket to catch gray water to help with the sand pit.

My husband is a landscaper. He only now is understanding the difference between 'land'scaping and 'interior'scaping. He is very good at what he does, but appreciates the fact that there is more than one way to do things, or more than one reason things go right or wrong....

Plants are supposed to make people happy and enjoy taking care of them, however we may choose. Please do not ruin it for the most of us.

BTW, did you read the article?

Shannon

I think the jury has enough evidence to decide who knows what they're talking about & who's trying to obfuscate, so I'll leave it at that. There would be no end to arguing with you, even if I pointed out the folly in your further offerings on a point by point basis. It's obvious you'd continue the current pattern, which is to seize on impertinent minutia and expand on it in order to cover an already demonstrated lack of knowledge and experience re. container media.
Al

You are projecting. Apparently there is a cult in this forum that uses peer pressure to persuade people to their false beliefs.

BTW, did you read the article?"

Only part because I am not interested in Bonsai where the objective is to stunt growth. BTW, I mistook you for the OP because you didn't clearly separate "I just wanted a good potting soil... ", otherwise, I wouldn't have responded to your post.

Hi, GG. ;o) I don't think you're asking ME .... but maybe you are. I know Will (personally). Like me, he's a bonsai guy and from MI. The points he made, when he got around to making them, were included in an article I wrote that was published in the Journal of the American Bonsai Society not long ago. The phraseology of the points he DID make is close enough that I wouldn't be surprised if the article (or the one here on GW. The one in the ABS journal was pretty much a slight rephrasing of the still active thread I posted in '05 on the container forum) had some influence on his offerings.

Al

Oops - Most important of all: I meant to apologize to you, Dobbers - for straying from the subject at hand. I hope you'll forgive, and that you feel you're being adequately helped via other channels. ;o)

Take care.

Al

Apparently there is a cult in this forum that uses peer pressure to persuade people to their false beliefs.

How on earth did you arrive at this conclusion? What "false beliefs" are we referring to? Have you ever visited the Container Gardening forum? And read the zillions of posts regarding the unqualified success of various bark-based mediums? There is a science to container gardening that is often misunderstood by those who practice only inground gardening and the differences regarding aeration/porosity, adequate drainage/water retention, water movement and fertilization for container culture compared to inground gardening are very significant. When the 'unenlightened' transfer their inground gardening experiences to container gardening without the proper modification, unhappy and unsuccessful results generally arise.

Fortunately, dobbers has posted the same query on the CG forum and has received good advice and information that has some substance to it rather than the specious and self-serving comments posted here by some.

Here is a link that might be useful: Container soils - 1000+ posts supporting bark-based mixes

Have you ever visited the Container Gardening forum? And read the zillions of posts regarding the unqualified success of various bark-based mediums? There is a science to container gardening that is often misunderstood by those who practice only inground gardening and the differences regarding aeration/porosity, adequate drainage/water retention, water movement and fertilization for container culture compared to inground gardening are very significant. When the 'unenlightened' transfer their inground gardening experiences to container gardening without the proper modification, unhappy and unsuccessful results generally arise.

I prefer to read papers published in peer reviewed journals that avoid words such as "zillions".

inground

I have over 30 years experience growing plants in pots, mostly tropical monocots, mostly in a 10' x 18' greenhouse, some outside during summer.

BTW, did you read the article?"

"Only part because I am not interested in Bonsai where the objective is to stunt growth. BTW, I mistook you for the OP because you didn't clearly separate "I just wanted a good potting soil... ", otherwise, I wouldn't have responded to your post"

Well if you could have understood the fact that bonsai are real plants grown in containers and read the entire article... you would have seen (...or maybe not) the point. The plant is taken care of properly by the grower and not necessarily by the makeup of the soil.

Closed minds offer only ignorance. As far as being one of the "OP", well I am. I have over 30 years experience doing a lot of things but I am also proud to say, I will never know everything. I am also sorry to have responded to your posts.

Dobbers, it does sound like you have found peace with 'soils', hope your experiments are fun and exciting. Please send some rain my way please =D

Still (I hope) Happy planting
Shannon

Well if you could have understood the fact that bonsai are real plants grown in containers and read the entire article... you would have seen (...or maybe not) the point.

If I were a hammer, I would have seen (...or maybe not) the point.

"bonsai thrive" sounds like an oxymoron. Is it or is it not a goal of bonsai to stunt plant growth without killing the plant?

Actually, you won't find an accomplished bonsai practitioner that is not an excellent container gardener and possessed of an excellent understanding of what makes soils work. It's just not possible.

Of course bonsai thrive. You obviously know nothing to very little about bonsai, or you'd realize that trees in small containers are subject to cultural conditions that would leave them vulnerable to disease and insect predation if the grower was not skilled enough to make the adjustments to ensure his trees are growing robustly and exhibiting very good vitality.

Bonsai goals are varied and personal, but we usually strive to create a plant that touches something inside and tells a story. We use more techniques than you could imagine to create diminutive versions of trees you might find standing alone in a meadow, or that have withstood the ravages of nature for a hundred years and bear the scars of what it's had to endure; trees that have faced the fiercest winds on a coastal dune, avalanches or rock slides on the mountainside ....

No .... you're wrong. Anyone can 'stunt' a plant by withholding fertilizer and water, keeping it rootbound, making it live on the division between stress & strain .... but it takes a great deal of skill and patience to nurture a tree year after year, keeping it at the peak of health under stressful conditions in small containers, and deciding when the timing is right to bring the tree into it's own.

Anyone can grow grass and bamboo in a greenhouse, but raising and creating a healthy, believable bonsai requires something quite beyond the average skillset. If you don't believe me, try keeping a plant like this alive for 2 years in a container this small before the container disintegrates & you have to repot.

{{gwi:3266}}

or this:

{{gwi:3257}}

Al

You obviously know nothing to very little about bonsai, or you'd realize that trees in small containers are subject to cultural conditions that would leave them vulnerable to disease and insect predation if the grower was not skilled enough to make the adjustments to ensure his trees are growing robustly and exhibiting very good vitality.

I obviously know very little about bonsai because I previously stated that I have no interest in it.

We use more techniques than you could imagine

Liar! You don't know what I can imagine.

No .... you're wrong. Anyone can 'stunt' a plant by withholding fertilizer and water, keeping it rootbound, making it live on the division between stress & strain .... but it takes a great deal of skill and patience to nurture a tree year after year, keeping it at the peak of health under stressful conditions in small containers, and deciding when the timing is right to bring the tree into it's own.

Define "peak of health" and "bring the tree into it's own".

Anyone can grow grass and bamboo in a greenhouse

Try growing heliconia in pots, in a greenhouse, in zone 5 or lower, during winter, especially H. rubricaulis.

If you don't believe me, try keeping a plant like this alive for 2 years in a container this small before the container disintegrates & you have to repot.

If and when I try to do bonsai, I will do it while riding a unicycle and juggling chainsaws.

Yippee!
Growing things in pots, in a greenhouse, in zone 5. Hmm, isn't that why humans created greenhouses?

Try bonsai? I am afraid your ignorance will defeat you. Have you ever replanted a plant back into the same pot? Well, how did you do that? Or do you just pot up?

"I obviously know very little about bonsai because I previously stated that I have no interest in it. " Yeah, that way you might learn something.

"I obviously know very little about bonsai because I previously stated that I have no interest in it. " Yeah, that way you might learn something.

How inconsiderate of me! Would you like me to follow your example by pontificating on something equally offtopic that you have no interest in?

For example, Ambrose Bierce wrote:

Heaven, n. A place where the wicked cease from troubling you with talk of their personal affairs, and the good listen with attention while you expound your own.

This ain't Heaven. You might find it in the Bonsai forum.

Does anyone know if this would be suitable for potting?

Nature Mix Container Soil is a ready-to-use soil mix that is ideal for container arrangements. Containing peat moss, humus, compost, perlite, sand and calcinated clay, this unique mixture is rich in organic matter and provides excellent aeration and drainage while enhancing your plants nutrient retention.

I bought it thinking it was for potting but it says container arrangements.

Based on the order of the ingredients, it sounds like a rather water-retentive mix. You could likely improve its aeration and drainage characteristics immensely by adding a considerable amount of pine bark fines, and some perlite. A small amount of garden lime should also be added if you add the pine bark - to bring the pH up a little and to ensure there is a residual fraction of Ca available in the soil.

For container culture, 'a unique mixture, rich in organic matter' is not necessarily synonymous with 'a good soil'. The number 1 priority to consider about your soil before you establish a planting is: Can I count on this soil to ensure adequate aeration and good drainage for the intended life of the planting. The odds of your being able to offer a resounding YES, based on the ingredient list and 6 months of service for the soil are probably no better than poor.

I think you would be quite pleased if you were to try
5 parts pine bark fines
1-2 parts of the soil you mentioned
1 part perlite
garden lime

If you decide to go ahead with the pine bark, I'll help you with how much lime to add.

If you follow the link I left below, you'll find lots of information about container soils. If you follow some of the links there, to older threads, You'll find literally hundreds of people that have discovered the ease of growing in these well-aerated soils and other benefits offered. Even if you decide you don't want to tackle making your own mix, you'll come away with a good understanding of what makes container soils tick.

Al

Here is a link that might be useful: More about soils

The mix says perlite in it but i opened the bag up and dont notice any perlite, odd. I also tried finding some pine bark fines but are nowhere to be found around here. I dont know what to do now.

I like a lot of people want and need a "good container potting soil". So noticing the great number of posts to this thread I thought I would revisit it to see what conclusions were reached.

I was amazed to find some very heated prose. So I read on only to become confused as to who was mad at whome and what was it all about! I still am!

Will someone please explain this!

Jim - it's not important & not worth explaining. In my post just above, there is a link to a very lengthy thread with lots of information where you can ask as many questions as you have.

Jerem - It would be helpful if you added where you live and your USDA zone to your user info. You can't just go to a store & ask for pine bark fines. It's often sold as 'Pine Bark Landscape Mulch', 'Soil Conditioner', other; Fafard's packages it as 'Aged Pine Bark' in 2.8 cu ft bags and is very good. You need something with almost all the pieces smaller than a dime, and hardwood products won't work. I would suggest that you also visit the Container Forum, where there are lots of discussions about where/how to find various soil ingredients.

Al

Again, I apologize for taking up valuable learning space to argue with, and I quote "a hammer".

I guess I get so upset with this individual because of their ignorance. To say that Al (tapla) is a fool and a liar is proof of their ignorance and stupidity. Also, making fun of gardengal, based on a term she used, I believe to exaggerate, is also telling how much they (struwwelpeter) care to learn about what and/or to whom they are speaking (She is a degreed horticulturist).

I have finally been able to keep container plants alive longer than 5 years and thought that maybe I could learn something new by reading up on bonsai. After a while, I realized that a great debate within "the container culture", lies in the ÂsoilÂ. So, I started studying that, which in turn brought me to This (almost always) GREAT Forum. I pasted a link to a very telling soil article I had read, which I thought might lighten things up a bit, but apparently struw only has the time to argue and obfuscate minutiae (as Al pointed out).

Sorry Al I was still posting when yours came through. It does feel nice though, to explain my reasoning for bringing up certain things in the first place.
Jim, I came to the composting forum to see how to amend all of this lovely sand we have down here in FL, and the original question also interested me, especially since I have read a lot about container Âsoils on that forum.

Shannon
=D

Shannon, I just considered the source and let it go :-) I've found that's often the best case under these kind of circumstances. Usually those that insist on having the last word in a discussion are those whose words have nothing else to support them other than repetition.

Jim - just follow Al's link - everything you need to know will become obvious and understandable :-)

Thanks, Pam. ;o)

Al