Various Clarifications on Gritty Mix and 5-1-1

13 years ago

I am quite new to this forum, and I have benefitted from the collective wisdom available here tremendously. I have searched the boards to make sure I don't ask any redundant questions (hopefully), but I have a few questions regarding the gritty mix and 5-1-1 and container growing more generally.

I hope these questions aren't overly tedious, but I am attempting to grow japanese maples in containers, and I am rather paranoid about messing something up.

1. Is there any container size limit for using either the gritty mix or the 5-1-1, or will either of them work regardless of container size (I am growing japanese maples in medium to large containers)? I know Al uses the mix for bonsai, but I wondered if anyone uses it for larger containers.

2. Is there any reason to use 5-1-1 over the gritty mix other than for short-term plantings and cost? I know Al mentioned using the 5-1-1 for plants grown seasonally, and said that he used the gritty mix for his "woody" plants (I took this to mean trees). But I recall reading somewhere that one member uses 5-1-1 for younger trees, and gritty mix for more mature ones. Is there any basis for the latter distinction, or is the only difference seasonally-grown v. long-term?

3. The "official" rendering of gritty mix only calls for screening the bark and turface, but other postings have mentioned screening other parts as well, such as the gran-i-grit (or silica sand substitute). Is there a consensus on what parts to screen, or an official "Al" opinion. If other parts are to be screened, I am assuming different screen sizes are required for the different components?

4. Must the gran-i-grit be crushed after purchasing, or does the recipe simply used "crushed" to describe the gran-i-grit in its purchased state?

5. Other forums have mentioned "Schultz Aquatic Plant Soil" as an alternative to Turface. Is this still a readily available alternative? Also, is the DE (I forget the long-form name) a suitable substitute? Some say DE is not hard clay like the Turface, so it may break down, but some say it is ok to use.

I think that is all for now. Again, I apologize for the length and for being overly technical. I am perhaps overly paranoid about doing something wrong and damaging the trees.

Thanks a lot,

Josh

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Comments (7)

tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
13 years ago
1) Al uses the gritty mix for containers he needs help lifting, and Al is hale. ;o) There really is no upper size limit, even for small plants if you're using a properly made gritty mix because it holds no (or very little) perched water. You need to be a little more cautious about the 5:1:1 mix - especially because there is a wide range in what you end up with as far as porosity/drainage, depending on what goes into it.

2) Over the long term, the gritty mix will outperform the 5:1:1 mix, but they're so close over the short hauls that I put anything 1-seasonal in the 5:1:1 mix. It's easier to make in large volumes and it's much less expensive.

3) It depends on what you use. I screen the Turface because of a size issue. The bark and granite I use are pre-screened, so I screen them over insect screen just to eliminate the dust. That's important to me because I grow many plants in pots an inch deep or less. I need to minimize every form of stress on those plants I can, and can't afford to have a thin layer of sludge at the bottom of these containers. It wouldn't make much difference in the deeper containers most of you would have your long term planting in.

4) "Crushed" is my own term. No 'crushing' is required as it comes in small, pre-screened pieces. I suppose granite chips would be more accurate, but I've noticed that habits are first cobwebs - then cables .... and so I'm prolly tied to 'crushed' unless I make myself think hard about it. ;o)

5) Schultz Aquatic Soil = Turface MVP.

Calcined diatomaceous earth is a little different than Turface. It holds more water (on a size for size basis), has a better CEC, but also has a higher pH. Like unproven sources of calcined clay, calcined DE should be checked for stability by freezing in water over night. If it remains stable, it's ok to use.

FWIW - I have a lot of maples (heavy on the Jap maples but also plenty of tridents & others) in the gritty mix, and have been enjoying very healthy trees for a long while.

Your turn. ;o)

Al
jcaark
Original Author
13 years ago
Thanks a lot. I really appreciate the timely and helpful response, especially coming from the man himself.

Actually, I left out one other question I have. Based on my reading, some members have cautioned against "re-potting" after a tree has begun blooming or leafing out, but seem to think that "potting up" (I assume that means moving the tree to a larger pot) is acceptable basically any time. Is my understanding correct on this point?

Again, I really appreciate your generous help, and I look forward to trying the gritty mix.

Josh
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Am I reading that correctly - you are in Orange County, CA, right? If so and you're using county water then your water quality looks great to me. If I'm looking at the right report (see here) then you have pH ~8 with ~16 ppm of Mg and ~48 ppm of Ca and total alkalinity of ~120 (180 as CaCO3 equiv). Your alkalinity is on the high side but the rest of the report looks great (for plants, I wouldn't drink it). 1 tsp of FP in 1 gallon of water will give you ~6 ppm of Mg and ~25 ppm of Ca. I mention this because your water has a good ratio of Ca:Mg and it already has both in higher levels than you'd get with typical usage of the liquid fertilizer most people around here talk about. To answer your question directly: no. The mixes are not neutral. The gritty mix will be closer to 7 than the 5-1-1 (which will be more acidic) but *it doesn't matter.* The pH of your mix initially has very little to do with the pH levels your mix will maintain over time. In containers the soil pH will be determined mostly by the pH and alkalinity of the water you use and by the type of fertilizer you use and its ratio of ammonium to nitrate (*and* the rate at which the plant is taking up both of those nutrients which can vary depending on temperature, cultivar, etc). You should basically assume that the initial pH of the mix itself is of no consequence when it comes to determining the pH of your soil over the long term. You do need to pay attention to the initial pH but only because if you transplant something into the mix you want the roots to function reasonably well from the get-go. All this means is that you need to raise the pH of the bark or peat slightly so they are more friendly to transplants - the directions for doing that are built into the 5-1-1. I grow citrus trees in both mixes. Either will work for you and there are pluses and minuses to both. In terms of pH and nutrient availability you will find that the 5-1-1 is slightly more forgiving than the gritty mix. At your pH and alkalinity if you grow citrus trees in containers you will almost certainly develop Mn and Zn deficiency even if you use something like FP (which, again: you do not need to do based on your water quality). You could avoid this by acidulating your water or by using foliar applications of Manganase Sulfate and Zinc Sulfate (1.5 g per gallon and 1 g per gallon respectively - they can be mixed and applied to new growth on plants showing deficiencies). Just looking again at your water report you also have adequate/luxury levels of B, S, Cl, Na, & Cu. Nickel will be in your soil via the bark and or peat and you likely don't need to add any. All your water may be missing is: Mo, Zn, Mn, & Fe. Were I you I would use a straight 5-1-3 fertilizer and then manage the micros as needed myself. You will find it much cheaper than the usual suggestion. You could also go with Jack's Professional 25-5-15 High Performance and you wouldn't have to manage your micros as often (you will still get Zn and Mn deficiency at your pH unless you acidulate or use a serious acid reaction fertilizer - but then you will blow your NPK ratios). The cheapest and easiest option would be to use the Jack's (or another 5-1-3 with Mo and Fe) and then use the foliar sprays 1-3 times a year. If you acidulate your water I wouldn't use sulfuric - you have a ton of S in there already. Maybe citric or vinegar (don't use phosphoric, nitric is dangerous). This will be moderately expensive and moderately time consuming even with a chemical injector. Do yourself a favor and avoid the expense of Foliage Pro with your water. You will be correcting micro issues in any case and you have better Ca/Mg/S than the fertilizer can offer you anyway.
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Josh thank you so much for all the answers and clarifications! All four trees are now in the new pots. I did root trim all of them (took 1/3-1/2 of roots) so I expect some leaf drop. I didn't really prune the tops though. I have heard that some people recommend taking off the top when you take off the bottom. Do you agree with this line of thinking? One of the trees, a tango mandarin which has the most full canopy, looks a little sad. The other three look basically the same as they did before the transplant. I am trying to include a picture that I took this evening, but it isn't uploading for some reason... The tree just looks like the leaves are drooping. I don't know a lot about transplant shock but would like to avoid it if I can!! The tango also seems a little more "loose" in the pot than the others. I had planned on staking right next to the trunk until you mentioned to do it at the edge of the pot. When you do it this way do you put stakes in on opposite sides of the pot and put strings from each stake with equal resistance, essentially holding the tree totally still? (Hope you understand what I mean) or do you tie off loosely to the end of a branch near the container edge. Seems like that wouldn't offer much support but maybe I am not understanding correctly. I will follow your fertilizing advice! And I will transition them back to full sun slowly, starting in a week! Thank you so much for all your advice. My tres thank you too, they wouldn't have a good chance of survival without the help that I have received on these forums! Emily
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meyermike_1micha
13 years ago
Actually, I think they are well thought out and very good questions..

It shows to me that you have been doing quite a bit of reading and research to ask such different questions..I like that!

Mike
tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
13 years ago
".... some members have cautioned against "re-potting" after a tree has begun blooming or leafing out, but seem to think that "potting up" (I assume that means moving the tree to a larger pot) is acceptable basically any time. Is my understanding correct on this point?"

'Potting up' is indeed bumping a plant up in container size with no, or minimal, root disturbance. There needs to be some qualification of the idea you don't repot while the tree is in leaf. That almost always applies to temperate deciduous material, but of course it wouldn't apply to evergreens or tropicals. Evergreens are all over the place, as far as when the best repot time is, and tropicals are best repotted in the month prior to their strongest growth, which varies with latitude and local cultural conditions (if you keep them outdoors). You don't include your zone or a large city near you in your user info (hint hint), so it's difficult to guess when that might be for you. I'll be finishing the last of my tropical tree repots this weekend (only 3 to go), but I'm finishing late this year. I would have liked to have them done by the 4th.

Al
jcaark
Original Author
13 years ago
Al- Thanks for the hint; I remedied my zone secrecy. At this point, I'm just dealing with the deciduous maples though. I was just wanting to make sure that potting up wouldn't be a problem this late in the year. But I'm sure it wouldn't be as bad as leaving them in the slightly root-bound state they're in now.

Mike- Thanks for the generous comment.

Josh
watchnerd
13 years ago
What about 5:1:1 vs gritty for bamboo (the real stuff, not the 'Lucky Bamboo') growing in 18"-24" diameter planters?

Bamboo are sort of woody, sort of not. And they grow fast enough that sometimes it's 2 years between repottings, but other times only 1 year.
tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
13 years ago
When you repot the species you're growing - how do you treat them? Do you divide the clump or start over with a few new plants from the perifery?

Al

Various Clarifications on Gritty Mix and 5-1-1

Comments (7)

tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)

jcaark
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Various Clarifications on Gritty Mix and 5-1-1

Comments (7)

tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)

jcaarkOriginal Author

Related Discussions

meyermike_1micha

tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)

jcaarkOriginal Author

watchnerd

tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)

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GET HELP

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jcaark
Original Author

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Original Author