your comments regarding laying paver on old concrete patio
M_N_A
10 years ago
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M_N_A
10 years agoYardvaark
10 years agoRelated Discussions
Laying pavers over existing sidewalk
Comments (5)You seem to have thought through the construction correctly, with edging and sand. You do need to compact the dirt so the section over dirt doesn't sink relative to the section over concrete. Of course if it does, you just need to lift the pavers and add more sand. KarinL...See MoreLaying pavers on dried concrete with control joints
Comments (10)One thing I see on a fairly regular basis in this forum is someone showing up with a preconceived desire to proceed with a faulty scheme, or one that is only partially "baked." I can't tell yet if this is what is coming. Elbow, why do you want to lower the grade around the back door and create more of a step? (Usually, people desire less steps rather than more so it would be good to explain the reasoning behind the desire.) In lowering the grade, it will become important to know how the grade outside of the project area interfaces with that which is within. Of course, we can't see ANY of that and it has not been explained to us. This is not a question about water which gets into the joints between pieces of stone. It's about the much greater volume of water that doesn't get in and must run off. In the last picture, what you are showing is what most of us would call some sort of "flagstone" ... relatively flat, broad pieces of irregular shape. My own thoughts about this is that thin flagstone does not really make good paving when installed on a sand base (regardless of whether there is concrete under it, or not.) If you walk on packed beach sand, you'll notice that your feet leave an imprint because the pressure of your foot is enough to cause a shift of unprotected sand. While flagstone protects the sand layer SOME, it is THIN and CAN shift in small degrees (usually in a rocking motion) when pressure is applied and depending on the state of moisture content in the sand base. It can shift due to the action of freezing and thawing. Over time, these small shifts can add up to a cattywampus and not very pretty surface ... not the kind of thing you'd want, really, for a rock solid 100-year old barn and nice house. Thin flagstone makes a much better -- durable even -- paving surface if it is mortared directly on top of a concrete slab ... without any sand embedment layer at all. But this kind of installation, while not impossible as a DIY project, requires some learning and skill so is usually left to someone already with experience. Using this size project to "learn" on might be asking a bit much of one's self. It would be MUCH easier -- much, much easier -- to install a normal thickness (2 3/8" or greater) regular paving unit on an aggregate base: bricks, concrete pavers, uniformly cut stones, etc., if that's the type of base one wishes and if their experience is limited. One would still need to learn something, but it is much easier to develop skill for that than it is to develop skills at mortaring in flat work. You could use steel mesh in a concrete slab, but it would be pointless in paving laid on sand. I'm going to guess that the appeal of the flagstone is that you have access to it at a reasonable price ... but the other end of the equation is that its installation will be expensive (even if only in your labor the amount of time you must put in to learn, and the risk-factor of a potential botch.) As far as water that penetrates into the soil or below the paving ... consider that the soil is basically an ALWAYS DAMP medium. That's why the grade outside of a building cannot be raised to too high an elevation. If the grade is too high, the only solution is reducing it. Also, the grade around a building must be graded such that water runs away from the building (it is usually said for 10', but it depends to some degree on surrounding conditions.) If the grade elevation around the building is acceptable, then there is no reason to worry about the soil having some dampness. It's the way it is. What one should worry about is moving the excess rain water the heck away from the house ASAP. In the case of this paving, if you get the surface to drain properly, there is nothing to be concerned about with a little water entering between paving stones. The idea that you can put down a slightly subsurface waterproofing membrane to take care of water penetrating the soil is more likely to cause problems than solve them. It's not needed. And you wouldn't want to create a layer of water that has no real route of escape....See MoreBrick Pavers Vs. Colored Concrete Pavers
Comments (14)I just stumbled upon this discussion and felt compelled to make my contribution. I know brick because I work for a brick manufacturer. However, I will try to keep my personal bias at bay. The first issue to address is durability. When installed properly, either option will provide many decades of service. Both materials have the compressive strength and moisture absorption ratings to withstand the harshest climates nature can throw at them. There is actually another factor affecting cement pavers, but since it doesnt actually cause failure of the unit, I will address it in the appearance section. Either way, make sure your bricks/pavers are designed to go in the ground. Not all cement materials, nor are all bricks designed to do this. It was mentioned that the deterioration of house bricks in a patio was unheard of and that it would actually be an advantage to find reclaimed bricks from a demolition project. DO NOT DO THIS! For a segmental paving material to withstand Mother Nature, it must have a minimum compressive strength of 8,000 psi and a maximum absorption rate of 7% after a 24 hour soak in cold water. I have seen historical test data from the mid 1900Âs that showed that many solid house bricks (which were often used mistakenly as pavers) had compressive strengths around 5,000 psi and absorption rates in the double digits! Needless to say, those ill-fated patios are either long gone or a horrible eyesore now. Now that you can be comfortable in choosing a durable product, the second issue to address is appearance. Additional factors besides just the look of the brick/paver should be considered. For instance, do you want your pavement to match the colors of the bricks on your house? Will you be incorporating any retaining walls in your project? No matter how hard you try, you simply cannot match a clay color in a cement product and vice versa. Brick makers do not currently make a dry-stack retaining wall system; therefore a brick retaining wall will require more work. However, if you are trying to create a stately atmosphere it may be worth the additional work (or hiring of a mason contractor) to build your retaining wall. The first factor of appearance, the look of the actual brick/paver does speak pretty much for itself. However, I do want to address some comments from the thread. To my knowledge (I have not researched this) cement pavers have always had their colors mixed throughout the paver. (End lack of research warning.) What is actually happening is fading due to ultraviolet radiation. This can be mistaken for the coloring only being on the surface because with time cement pavers will actually wear down. This is evident in a cement paver project once it has been installed for about 10 years. Because the erosion is visible (you can actually see the aggregate) it is commonly believed that coloring is superficial as well. I do not see the issue of erosion as a durability factor since the units will still be in one piece and the pavement system as a whole will not fail. (Personal bias warning in effect)However, after all your hard work and money put into your project, wouldnÂt you want it to look the same as it does now in ten years? (End bias warning.) To be fair, cement pavers can be sealed on an annual basis to ensure their color retention. However, when you add up the cost of initial construction and yearly maintenance over ten years, you could probably install solid granite for about the same cost. (I havenÂt done the math and may have exaggerated, so research it for yourself and see.) There are advantages for both products (Although one list may be longer than the other!) and your unique concerns and application should be considered. In addition, other pavement options such as bluestone and granite are worth researching and considering as well. I know this has been an extremely long reply, but I sincerely hope it helps you make an informed decision. While there are not as many "genuine clay paving brick" retailers as paver retailers, we are out here. Do your research and you will find us!...See MoreConcrete OVER old pavers for patio?
Comments (1)rip them out and then prep it correctly. the pavers may be pretty settled, but why take the chance that they shift in a couple years and ruin your new patio? it is easier to take them up now and do it right than it is to remove the whole thing and redo it right....See Moremissindepedy
10 years agoM_N_A
10 years agoM_N_A
10 years agoM_N_A
10 years agoM_N_A
10 years agoM_N_A
10 years agoYardvaark
10 years agomarcinde
10 years agoYardvaark
10 years agomarcinde
10 years agoSuzi AKA DesertDance So CA Zone 9b
10 years ago
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