What does CRF stand for? It says it's an optional ingredient in the soil mixture, but is it necessary/mandatory to add? Also where can you find "micro nutrient powder"? What are fine bark pines and where can they be purchased?

CRF = controlled release fertilizer. Essentially a prilled or coated fertilizer that is released over time, typically as a function of temperature and moisture. Osmocote is a common brand.

Micronutrients are the "go-alongs" in the fertilizer world - those additional nutrients that are necessary for healthy plant growth but generally in quite low quantities (ergo, the "micro"), unlike the big 3, NPK. Any good nursery should carry a water soluble formulation that includes micronutrients. Sometimes referred to as trace elements.

Lots of discussions on bark fines :-) They are just shredded/ground bark of a specific size. Scroll further down the thread linked and you will see photos of appropriately sized bark. This seems to offer the most issue regarding locating the product - some areas have a suitable sized bark in wide supply; others not.

Regarding fertilization: anything grown in a container will need supplemental fertilization whether it is added up front (during mixing/potting) or down the road. Personally, I find it much easier to add CRF's when mixing and potting and to supplement periodically with a water soluble 'complete' fert that contains everything, including the micros.

And you want to avoid using any garden soil (or topsoil, etc.) in a container mix and I'd go very light on any compost, if at all. Neither of these will offer sufficient aeration and drainage.

>> And you want to avoid using any garden soil (or topsoil, etc.) in a container mix and I'd go very light on any compost, if at all. Neither of these will offer sufficient aeration and drainage. Darn, I've been doing the opposite! I'll have to tell all my plants that have lots of foliage, short internode length and are producing fruit they are not suppose to do this, because I use gar-den dirt and compost in the container. I sure do hope they forgive me!

Mike

What are you planning on growing in them? How often will you need to exchange the soil? If you go with the gritty mix you wouldn't have to change it out for years, but the 5-1-1 will need to replaced every other year or sooner.

Kawaiineko - did you read the info Pam linked you to from the soil forum? If you think it's worth a trip down to Bay City, and you have a way to haul it, you can come down and I'll help you make as much of the 5:1:1 mix as you need.

Al

Al, unfortunately I have no way of getting there since you're located in central michigan. If you could somehow help me, you'd need to come to Boyne City, which is in Northern Michigan. If you could somehow help me, I'd greatly appreciate it. Please let me know.

What type of soil is the best type to use in container gardening? This is what I'm really confused about and can't seem to get a straight answer with.

I don't know if pine bark fines are available where I live,
but if so, what type of store would carry it? Lowe's? Home Depot? Walmart? A gardening nursey? Landscaping company?

I'll be glad to help you, I'll even assemble the ingredients and make the soil, if you drive down, but I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to do all that and come to your door, too. I'm sure you understand that? What I will do though, is: I will still assemble the ingredients for you so you have what you need to make the soil, if you have someone traveling the I-75 corridor who will pick them up and pay for them. I live only about 2 miles from an I-75 interchange, and just a couple of blocks off a numbered highway.

I didn't answer your question about the best soil for a couple of reasons./ One is I don't like to promote a specific soil, as in "my" soil. Others do that because they like it so well. I usually just say you need a durable and well-aerated soil and leave it at that. The info Pam left a link to on the Soil/Composting Forum was good info. It's the same as the link I'll leave below. You'll find lots of information there that will help you understand soils, and you can ask as many questions as you want on the thread.

The 5:1:1 soil you'll read about there is an excellent choice for container gardening. Many hundreds or even thousands of people who have read about it here are using it and witnessing that it provides excellent results. You'll see their comments there on the thread. In breaking form, that is what I would suggest that you use, if you're up for getting the ingredients to make it. It will be much less expensive to make than to buy commercially prepared soils, but you need to decide if you're up for the effort.

If you have no way of getting the materials through me, and you still want to make the soil, let me know and I'll give you some bark suppliers you could call to see if they have retail outlets near you. That's about all the help I can offer for now.

Al

Well I would love to go down there I just don't have a way of getting down there. I mean the only way would be to take a bus and even if I did it wouldn't be feasible for me to transport the soil to where I live.

What is a 5:1:1 soil. Sorry I'm not good with ratios so I'm a little confused about that. Is this the link that everybody has been talking about throughout this thread?
To my knowledge, it's the only link that has been given so

Below is the link that was given intially in this thread. Is this what everybody is talking about? To my knowledge it's the only link that has been given in this thread.

If it's not then can somebody please provide the correct link regarding the 5:1:1 ratio with soil. I apologize for making another post but no matter what I try to do, this thing keeps deciding to omit additional information that I put.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/msg0214164227031.html?75

Regarding the quantity needed for the soil, would I need to make the big batch or the small batch? I need 50-60 gallons of soil.

If you can just tell me where I can get fine bark pine, then I should be okay. I mean if I have an idea of where it's carried then that's all the additional info I need.
If I can't find the fine bark pine, what is an adequate substitute for it?

Sorry - I forgot the link. Duh!

You would need about 8 cu ft of bark to make 60 gallons of soil, so 4 - 2 cu ft bags would do it + perlite, peat, and lime.

I don't know where you'll find it near you. It's often an adventure trying to locate something suitable. I have 3 places I can buy it near me and one (just that I know of) in DET. As I said, if you want to make it, I'll try to get you some phone #s to call to see if the companies whose bark I'm using sell to retailers near you.

There really is no substitute other than a similar product from either fir or hemlock bark.

Al

Here is a link that might be useful: Container soils

Wordwiz, I have been reading and watching these forums for quite sometime..
For an old lady, I can tell you that I do not appreciate your approach in your response.It was a bit sarcastic, and was not called for. You have proven your point with your pictures, and do not try to encourage many here to grow in dirt, when most fail in this regard.There have been a few here banned from this site and I wouldn't want to see it happen to you for trying to prove your point in the manner you did.I hope you learn from me. I only post when I feel necessary.I think you get my point.
Sincerely yours

This is the recipe I'd like to use to make the soil for my container garden. Thing of it is, would I need to add 4 cubic foot bags of soil to this recipe, or IS this the soil?

Also, how many gallons of soil would this recipe make?
Would I need to double it, triple it, etc. to get
the amount I need? In regards to compost how much would I need to add to a big batch of soil (how many gallons please; a third, half, quarter, etc.) How much lime, peat, and perlite would I need to add in gallons? If you're wondering what I'm talking about regarding this I Need to know how much of those quantities I'd need to add with peat, perlite, and lime to this "recipe" you gave me..."You would need about 8 cu ft of bark to make 60 gallons of soil, so 4 - 2 cu ft bags would do it + perlite, peat, and lime".

How much would it cost to do that recipe? I have a budget of about $50 to make 60 gallons of soil.

Big batch:
2-3 cu ft pine bark fines
5 gallons peat
5 gallons perlite
2 cups dolomitic (garden) lime (or gypsum in some cases)
2 cups CRF (if preferred)
1/2 cup micro-nutrient powder (or other source of the minors - provided in some fertilizers)

That IS the recipe. No need to add bagged soil or compost -- in fact, I would advise against it.

1 cubic foot is approximately 7.5 gallons so that recipe as listed above should result in approximately 30-33 gallons. Just double the quantities :-) And I can't help you with costs......they will vary widely from loctaion to location. But purchasing the basic ingredients and mixing your own is generally quite a bit less expensive than purchasing a pre-mixed bagged product, assuming you could even find one of similar quality.

What Pam said.

I'll estimate costs on the high side:

4 bags of bark ........... $15
1 - 4 cu ft bag perlite ... 20
1 bale sphagnum peat ....... 5
50 lbs garden lime ......... 8

You'll have perlite, peat, and lime left over for the next batch.

Al

sissy,

My aim is to educate. I replied to a post that said not to use garden dirt or compost. Without my reply, the OP may have thought using both are wrong, and they are not. As you stated, you have seen my results.

And exactly where in the rules does it say I should not encourage others to try something that seems to work? I am sorry you do not like what I have to say but in all honesty, an exchange of ideas and methods is what this and most forums are about.

I am well aware some people are resentful about me posting, others are appreciative and another group is agnostic. That's not important to me. What is, is the wrong info gardengal posted.

YMMV,

MIke

FWIW - and just to keep things on a positive note, I agree with everything Gardengal said in both her posts.

Al

Al,

That's fine. We can agree to disagree about whether compost added to a container is good or bad. I add it and have tremendous success - you and others may experience different results. But I will not recant that growers ought to know this is an option, one that the head of the Agricultural Extension Off-ice also endorses.

Mike

I am following this post, because I am one who has failed for several years using soil in containers, so it's time for a change.

Hello Sissy! Good to see you!

Gardengal~ great help! I'm horrible with math , so the break down helps.
And no, I don't think there is one on the market even close to the 5-1-1.. I have tried tons over the years!

Wordwiz~ to want to educate someone is fine, but your first post was just rude and sarcastic! If I was considering your way I would move on and find someone else to learn from! I don't see how showing up and getting snotty teaches anyone anything...

Al~~ I'm mixing my 5-1-1 this weekend... Does it NEED to sit for a week like i've read somewhere so the lime gets worked in... or can I start planting the tomatos and peppers I got tonight.?? :)

My darn jeep heads right for the garden shop...he he..

JoJo

JoJo,

To each their own. I really don't care if you use compost or gar-den dirt. You are growing your plants, not me and if you find a mix or method that provides the results you hope for - nothing could be finer! I just wanted to add my experience. But, in the interest of full disclosure, I didn't actually just "show up." I've been a "different" voice for a while and have taken my share of beatings, not that this bothers me. Most people who frequent this section of Gar-den Web seem to take it as a threat. So life goes!

Again, my original message is one of those "IME." If you don't like it, don't follow it. Simple enough?

Happy growing,

Mike

Gardengal,
I didn't mean to direct my last post to just Al.. just kinda habbit because he came up the the 5-1-1 .. I value all input, so if you know the answere feel free to jump in. :)

Wordwiz~ I am not new here either and have seen your posts. I am not knocking what you do or how you grow... I am just saying if you really want to share and educate, you should find a nicer way to do it.

I look and read everything here because I do find it interesting how others grow... but when I see a sarcastic post, it just makes me want to move on.

JoJo

JoJo,

Fair enough. I promise, I will try, in the future, to make sure what I post in response to wrong information cannot be interpreted as sarcastic by other patrons of this section of the forum who dislike me going against the status quo.

Mike

Of course, anyone is perfectly free to follow whatever methods or advice they prefer to follow. I have no stake in what they decide beyond that they get good information. The fact is, 'gar-den dirt' has a deleterious effect on media aeration and it increases both water retention and the height of the perched water table. Even if we allow that someone might have found a way to work around that issue, there is no denying that the lions share of container soil problems shared on this and other forums are directly related to the issues of excess water retention and insufficient aeration. If anyone wishes to take that direction and fill their containers with topsoil and compost, which by the preponderance of evidence is known to be a problematic issue, I don't think anyone minds or cares at all.

Overwhelming evidence supports the concept of highly aerated soils being easier to grow in, more productive, and providing a much wider margin for grower error. To confirm this, you need only read the many hundreds of success stories from people who turned from soils that contained large fractions of topsoil and/or peat and/or compost to soils that provide superior aeration and drainage for extended periods.

I'm sure there are many willing to wait patiently to be educated, but if I might point out that simply disagreeing with someone isn't educating. I usually try to logically string together a group of facts in a manner that makes it easy for everyone to understand what I'm trying to explain. I'm also being sincere when I say that I can't imagine pointing to a person in a distant office and guessing at what they might say if they were in this conversation. I just couldn't make myself believe that would be convincing. Perhaps you could talk that person into joining the conversation so we could get his/her opinion first hand?

FWIW - Though I didn't mention anything in any of my posts, I too think that your first post was unnecessarily sarcastic and almost certain to inflame.

I do wish you continued success in your endeavors.

Al

Sorry, JoJo. It's not mandatory that you wait 2 weeks after you make your soil, though it would be better no matter what type of soil you were making. The lime you add has two phases. There is a 'reactive' phase, which takes about 2 weeks in moist soils. During that time, the base lime slowly reacts with the hydrogen in the soil to bring pH up, during which time Ca is largely unavailable. When the pH rises to around 6.2, the remaining lime is termed 'residual' and more readily available for uptake.

This can be an important consideration when growing crops that tend to have issues with BER (caused by cultural or chemical issues that are manifest by a lack of Ca or an interruption of Ca supply in the nutrient stream).

Al

Thank you Al!

It's my understanding Tomatos suffer from lack of Calcium.. am i right?

O.K. I'll see how long I can wait.. I'm not a patient gardener.. spring is like christmas to me.. Dig in and tear off the paper! LOL!

JoJo

Mmhmm .... BER = Blossom End Rot, caused by Ca-related problems - some chemical & some cultural.

Sorry for getting a little off track here, Kawaiineko.

Al

Al,

>> The fact is, 'gar-den dirt' has a deleterious effect on media aeration and it increases both water retention and the height of the perched water table. OK, show me the research studies that support this. And if it is true, how can plants grow in dirt?

>> there is no denying that the lions share of container soil problems shared on this and other forums are directly related to the issues of excess water retention and insufficient aeration. First one needs to prove garden soil and compost in a container cause excess water retention. I've shown it doesn't. You have not shown it does, or at least I have not seen any pictures of you growing plants in containers filled with garden soil, compost and potting mix that failed. Or pics from anyone else or for that matter, posts from people who have tried this and failed.

>> Overwhelming evidence supports the concept of highly aerated soils being easier to grow in, more productive, and providing a much wider margin for grower error. To confirm this, you need only read the many hundreds of success stories from people who turned from soils that contained large fractions of topsoil and/or peat and/or compost to soils that provide superior aeration and drainage for extended periods. Al, I'm really trying to understand you so tell me if I am misunderstanding. Plants need soil that is aerated to grow. Compost is not good for aeration. Adding compost to a raised bed or a dirt garden is good. Plants grow good in garden dirt, better in garden dirt that has compost added to it. But putting garden dirt with compost in a container and trying to grow a plant in it is an exercise in futility because, (I'm presuming) the plant and roots somehow know it/they are in a container and will behave different from how they do in a raised bed or dirt garden?

>> I'm sure there are many willing to wait patiently to be educated, but if I might point out that simply disagreeing with someone isn't educating. I usually try to logically string together a group of facts in a manner that makes it easy for everyone to understand what I'm trying to explain. I'm also being sincere when I say that I can't imagine pointing to a person in a distant office and guessing at what they might say if they were in this conversation. I just couldn't make myself believe that would be convincing. Perhaps you could talk that person into joining the conversation so we could get his/her opinion first hand? My bad - I thought most experienced growers would know what a County Extension Agent is and what their credential are. Or are you trying to say I am making things up?

>> Though I didn't mention anything in any of my posts, I too think that your first post was unnecessarily sarcastic and almost certain to inflame. Al, I like and respect you, but the bottom line is this: if anyone comes here and posts anything that you and others in your cabal do not agree with, it is considered either sarcastic or heretical. That is so wrong, in so many ways and we both know this. It's not like I have just "talked the talk," I've also shown results.

What I see is if you (or others) do not agree with the message, it's a way out to attack the way it was delivered instead of what it says.

Mike

O.K.
One more question...

How exactly do you measure a gallon of dry material, to know in the end how much lime to use.

I just dont quite get that one.. Im not a math person.

JoJo

I'm not saying this to be mean, but your responses in the thread about 'greenhouse soils', and the questions you ask here show very clearly that you do not recognize the difference between how water behaves in containers as opposed to how it behaves in our gardens and beds. The two cultures are distinctly different, and what works well in the garden very often is disastrous in containers. Container culture is MUCH closer to hydroponics than it is to growing in the garden, and whenever you bring the garden to container culture, you bring problems.

Many of us who do understand the difference are simply saying that there are hundreds and hundreds (literally) of people who have come to this forum for help because they were unable to grow in soils like you are suggesting are perfectly fine. Perhaps that you are able to grow in these soils is wonderful testimony to your prowess as a container gardener, but the odds overwhelmingly favor the fact that soils of compost and topsoil are going to present severe difficulties for huge % of those who might try it - the proof is all around us.

To quantify - good soils will have at least 65% total porosity and 25-30% air porosity at container capacity - and will maintain (close to) those numbers for the expected life of the planting. ANY mix of finished compost and topsoil will have much less than 50% total porosity and less than half the air porosity at container capacity that is necessary to allow plants to have the opportunity to grow at their genetic potential within the limits of other cultural influences ...... and, the numbers deteriorate quickly from there as already tiny compost particulates break down even further.

As someone who CARES about the growing experience of others and who tries very hard to offer a wide variety of information that makes things easier instead of harder, I have to say that it makes no sense to go down the compost/topsoil road unless it's your only option, and then, based on many years of helping people overcome the problems with soils like that, I'll clearly say "Don't get your hopes up." All I'm doing is pointing to the pitfall in the path, as I also do when I discuss the types of soils I use.

Al

Hello!
Anyone here today?? :)

Al~ I think we were posting at the same time and you don't realize this is here.. so bump... LOL!
JoJo

You guys are too funny!!!

Missed you all!!!

Thank you for all the great educational info..My family and I read this last night and they say thank you Al!!!
They will be using the 5.1.1 mix for the first time, since every one of them has failed the garden dirt way..My brother in particular..Guess last year they got jelous of my vegi's..lol

Mike..:-)

When making your own soils, you need to use a little rough math. E.g., A batch of 5:1:1 for my own use consists of 2 cu ft of pine bark fines, about 4 gallons of peat, and 5 gallons of perlite. I do some quick calculations in my head, like so: I know there are 7.5 gallons in a cu ft, so I have 15 gallons of bark + 4 gallons of peat + 5 gallons of perlite. This all adds up to 19 gallons, but it only makes about 16 gallons of soil because the peat and perlite tend to find their way into the air spaces between the bark. It just happens that there are 16 Tbsp in a cup, so at the rate of 1 Tbsp/gallon a batch gets a cup of soil.

If you were making smaller batches, you'll need to measure the ingredients somehow. Use a gallon jug to measure how much the container holds, then do the math. E.g. 5 qts + 1 qt + 1 qt = 6 qts = 1-1/2 gallons, so use 1-1/2 tbsp lime.

Often too, you can look on the bottom of the container you're using to find its capacity. There's really no way around using math to estimate.

Al

I guess I'll have to get my hubby to figure it out! LOL!

Thanks..
JoJo

Al,

I would have thought that from our previous discussion you would have recalled that the amount of com-post per container is not much - maybe 10 percent, max, spread out from top to bottom and side to side.

Tis true, I'm not a scientist, I cannot begin to tell you, or even figure out how to measure, the total porosity or air porosity of the mix. All I know is soil needs to maintain some moisture but still drain. Compaction is not good. Plants need nutrients to grow, as well as enough room for the roots. Seems simple, at least to me.

In no way, shape or form do I disagree that your mix apparently works. But I do disagree that this is the ONLY way one can grow great plants that provide great production.

YMMV,

Mike

To best way to finish it is just allow those who wants to experiment.
I did. Last spring i planted two containers, one with Al's mix and one with my that contained compost and so on.
I planted Taxi tomatoes in both of them.
Both containers went first fine, i got first tomatoes in season from them (i put then for nights in GH), but by the middle of season, container with my mix started decline because soil got compacted, i think.
Container with Al's mix continued to produce nice tomatoes.
Well, i think i will use only All's mix in my containers next year.

Thanks, BG.

Mike - you'll never find anywhere where I either said or implied my way is the only way. I go out of my way to point out that you CAN make many other soils work and you CAN grow reasonably healthy plants in them. The big advantage in the types of soils I suggest (little or no perched water) is that you don't have to suffer the effects of the cyclic death/regeneration of fine rootage that absolutely occurs in more water-retentive soils, or worry much about root rot issues. You can water and fertilize very freely, and there is a wide margin for grower error you could never expect to have in heavy, water retentive soils.

It's fine if you want to promote another idea or another soil recipe, but a large number of us immediately recognize the problems associated with compost/topsoil mixes and actually feel obligated to let others know the odds of doing well with these types of soils is extremely low.

I regularly offer help or advice to people who aren't growing in anything like the soils I use. I try to help them get the most out of what they are using, often by suggesting ways to reduce the amount of perched water their soil will hold, but a mix of topsoil and compost, regardless of the fractions involved is going to be extremely water retentive and will severely compact in containers, and I just don't want people to be disappointed, because the odds very heavily favor that they will be.

Mike - if you lower your guard, you'll see that I'm not saying these things because I have anything against you or because I feel threatened. I'm always very happy to relinquish the floor to anyone who offers sound advice. I do it all the time, and it makes me happy to see someone who came here a couple of years ago with no experience who has learned enough to help other people. When they do that, sometimes they point to a particular thread or a recipe because they might not yet be quite as able to nail down all the nuances of soil science, yet they still want to help. They wouldn't be doing that if they hadn't been growing in heavy soils that were unproductive for them and changed that around when they switched to a well-aerated and structurally stable soil.

Many of us have a decided advantage over you, in that we have grown in soils like combinations of topsoil/compost and in well-aerated and durable soils, and THAT is the reason we prefer the latter. You, not having seen the difference and being somewhat unfamiliar with the science involved, can't see what we see. You are happy with your results, and that is wonderful, but most of the experienced growers who have spent years at this forum trying to help those growing in poor soils really do see lots of potential for major issues in any topsoil/compost mix.

If I send you a gallon of soil at no charge to you, will you give it a fair try, so you can see the difference for yourself?

Al

Al,

>> If I send you a gallon of soil at no charge to you, will you give it a fair try, so you can see the difference for yourself? No, because I grow plants in 7-gallon containers and a gallon won't help at all. But if you tell me the amount of different things I need (or want to send me 12 gallons of your mix which would be quite expensive!) and I can get them by Thursday, I will try them. That's when my LED panel is suppose to arrive and I have 4 tomato cuttings ready to go, and maybe by then, 8. Plus some Genovese Basil that I'm testing to see how it grows under different types of lights.

If you want, you can e-mail me: wordwiz@fuse.net

Thanks,

Mike

Unfortunately I don't know if it's going to be feasible for me to make this mixture. Although I'd love to, I'm having an extremely difficult time locating fine bark pine; most people don't know what is when I ask them if they carry it.

So far there are only two possible places that may carry it, and I don't even know if they do. Would pine bark mulch be an adequate substitute for fine bark pine?

I realize there isn't really a substitute for it because that's what supposed to be used to make this soil mixture, but I NEED some sort of suggestion. As much as I don't want to, I might have no other choice but to find a substitute.

If it's not feasible for me to make this soil mixture, can somebody recommend another soil mixture that will work well for container gardening where one of the main ingredients isn't impossible to find?

Also does fine bark pine go by another name? If so, what is it? I'm not very familiar with it, so when people ask me what is when I ask if they carry it, I unfortunately can only tell them it's an ingredient that's being used to make a soil mixture for container gardening.

Most of the time it will be under "mulch" or "soil conditioner". You just have to make sure it is bark and the particle sizes are correct. It is a little difficult to locate, best way is to go to landscaping stores and see what kind of pine bark mulches they carry. Local stores will probably even order it for you if you ask. There are threads that contain info on where to find it, search for pine bark and sift through those for ideas.

Pine bark mulch and pine bark soil conditioner are two products that often turn out to be what you're looking for. If you can find someone near you that sells Fafard's 51L mix or their nursery mix, those would be good choices, too.

When you describe what you're looking for, you might say you're looking for finely ground pine bark, with all the pieces dime size or smaller.

Al

When I called John Deere Tractor... I asked for "pine bark fines" and that is what I got.

Here's a link that may help... It is members shararing where they got their supplies.

JoJo

Here is a link that might be useful: Supplies by Region

I just looked and the bag reads Pine Mulch Fines if that helps any for asking around.

JoJo

Ask for it as pine bark fines or just bark fines rather than "fine bark pine". Any finely ground bark mulch will do (avoid shredded bark). Both Petco and PetsMart carry an animal bedding product called Repti-Bark that would be close to ideal. More expensive than landscaping bark but will substitute well.

Al,

>> Fafard's 51L mix or their nursery mix, those would be good choices, too. See, we are not that terribly far apart. I sifted Fafard's B3 mix (I bought it to sow seeds in but it isn't good for that as I found) and used the perlite and pine bark to add to my silty dirt and com-post. Probably 1/3 of it compared to the dirt but six times the amount of compost.

Mike

kawaiineko_gardener, I sympathize with your difficulty in locating pine bark fines. I too have not had any luck finding pine bark fines in the Pennsylvania area. So far, I've researched at least 75-100 garden supply centers, big box stores, nurseries, forest products companies, mulch companies, wholesale mulch suppliers, landscape suppliers, bonsai supply vendors, orchid supply vendors, and even a large forest products company in Canada. No luck! There isn't even a Lowes or H.D. within 100 miles of me that carries pine bark mini-nuggets, which are even still too large for use in these mixes.

The partially composted pine bark fines are proving even more difficult to locate. I have three calls into forest products suppliers in Ohio, Virginia, and North Carolina, am am waiting to hear back from them to see if there is any way I could purchase their product retail and have it shipped to PA.

I've looked through the "Supplies by Region" thread, and researched every company on it to see if anyone would ship to PA, or carries the product in our area of PA but no dice.

The one product I've been able to locate is:
Uncomposted pieces of fir bark in the form of Zoo Med Repti Bark from PetSmart pet store. Currently on sale for $8.99 for a 10 quart bag.

If anyone has a source for pine bark fines in Pennsylvania or Northern Michigan please let us know! Thanks very much.

Availability will improve as spring gets closer and shipments start to arrive. I live in a small town and I have several sources near me. Some of the nicest bark I found (several years ago) came from Home Depot and was labeled "Premium Pine Bark Landscape Mulch".

Fafard also sells "Aged Pine Bark".

Al

We have this at Home Depot in CA, but when I was in Santa Fe last week, HD only had "small" bark nuggets.

{{gwi:681}}

{{gwi:682}}

I have to believe in your area Pine Bark is abundant. Good Hunting!

Raybo

Thanks for the bark tips! Maybe later in the spring our H.D. will carry something similar. I can't get Fafard products in my area either, so I'm going to go with the Repti-bark instead for now, since I'm only doing three 1.5 gallon containers. Thanks again for all the container soil info...will keep you all posted on how things go with my "reptile mix".

What I managed to find was pine bark mulch; it was very finely ground and was a dark brown color. They also
have pine bark nuggets, which are quite large; these are light brown in color.

Regarding using something like osmocote, that will be a problem using it for my earthboxes. The instructions with what type of fertilizer to use with earthboxes, say that almost any kind can be used as long as it's not a slow-release formula and it's not a time-released formula.

Unfortunately to my knowledge, oscomocote is one of the types of fertilizer I shouldn't use with my earthboxes.
Can somebody recommend a suitable substitute? I can't use water-soluble fertilizers either. Also the earthboxes did come with plant food, which you're supposed to use with whatever soil mixture you're using in the earthboxes.

Yes, you can use Osmocote with Earthboxes and many of us do and always have. That would be the same as saying you can't use any of the fertilizer-added potting mixes like Miracle Grow in Earthboxes and that wouldn't be true either because you can.

You just mix the Osmocote in with your soil mix per the instructions on the container. And you still use the 1 cup of fertilizer band per the Earthbox instructions. You can use what comes with it or you can buy any brand of balanced granular fertilizer 10-10-10 or 12-12-12 etc. There are hundreds of brands to choose from.

You can also use liquid, water soluble fertilizers with Earthboxes and many do on a regular basis. You just mix it per the instructions on the containers and pour it into the water compartment once a month or so. They are all totally different and work differently on the plants and there won't be any Earthbox police that come and arrest you for using them.

Dave

Just in case you couldn't find it, here is a link to your post of this same question from last year with much of the same info already outlined in it. Might be helpful to review it again too.

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: Your 2009 post of this question