Yes, the Reptibark reptile bedding is excellent as the bark ingredient... although, it is considered rather expensive if you need a large quantity.

I use it for a few reasons... it's available locally, doesn't require screening, the particles are the right size, and I don't need large amounts as I only make small batches of medium at a time.

Pet Smart carries it in three different bag sizes... I go for the medium at about $12. The large bag is around $22, I think. Petco probably carries the same thing, and I would think other pet stores that deal in reptiles would also carry it.

I'm not really up on the peat differences, since I don't use it. For my uses, any peat retains too much moisture for my growing environment. And any bagged soils that contain peat are garbage as far as I'm concerned. I no longer use them, at all.

Walmart sells this also .I paid $8 for a bag that said 2.0 cubic feet expands to 4.0 cu ft. Someone commented on another post that this wasn't a good product because it was made from the inner wood and not the bark. Would appreciate other opinions on this. I have found Lowe's to be much cheaper.There is a "mulch" and a "soil conditioner " type ,here is the link

Here is a link that might be useful: Lowe's

Reptibark is not sold at Lowe's, as far as I know. What you are describing is actually coco coir chips, which are processed using large amounts of salts or saltwater. Some companies or manufacturers pre-rinse the product before shipping it for retail sale, and some don't.

In any case, reptile bark is not sold in expandable bales. And coco coir is not made of fir bark... it is made from... coco coir.

dickiefickle,
The only thing I can recall at walmart that is in a bale that expands is pine shavings for animals...The kind used in hamster cages.

I will look next time there, to see if anything new is in.

JoJo

thanks jodik. looks like i'll have to use reptibark since the orchard fir bark pieces were a bit too big (1/2 inch).

using the 5-1-1 for my blueberry and tomato plants.

No problem... glad to help if I can! I know there are sources for pine bark in larger amounts... I just don't know where to look in your area.

If any stores carry Fafard products, they make a soil conditioner that is usable pine bark... Schultz makes an aquatic plant soil that's pine bark... and if you look at some of the orchid growers/greenhouses, they might have bulk pine bark for sale, too.

There are many sources and different industries that have/sell it, it's just locating it that's sometimes difficult. Keep at it, though... I know you'll find something eventually. It took me a while to gather all the ingredients for my mix. Don't give up! :-)

Yes, JoJo... places like WalMart sell pet bedding in large bales... but it's pine shavings or cedar shavings, neither which are useful in this instance. Neither are pine or fir bark products.

The product we're looking to obtain will be 100% fir or pine BARK in small pieces, and not the wood chips or shavings. Most regular pet beddings in shaving form are not useful for our needs. If you take a look at the Reptibark fir bark, you notice that it's all actual bark pieces, and that they're rather uniform in size. Once you get a visual glimpse of that, then looking at other products will tell you whether or not they'd be useful.

There are threads here in the forum with location listings for different ingredients in different parts of the country... I just don't have a link handy.

HI,
I think I have the link Jodik is talking about.

I think I read somewhere that John Deere Tractor carries this, but not positive.

Here is a link that might be useful: Ingredients by region

Thanks, JoJo! Perfect!

John Deere dealers usually either carry the turface MVP, or they can order it for you.

The bark ingredient is sometimes trickier to locate in the size and type wanted. I suggest looking into the orchid growing industry, the bonsai industry, the reptile bedding industry, looking at different soil conditioners, aquatic soils, some bagged mulches, etc...

Prices and bag sizes will vary... I think what you purchase will largely depend on how much you need, and how much you're willing to spend.

I don't mind spending a little more for the Reptibark, because it comes pre-screened to remove dust, it's the perfect size, it's 100% fir bark as needed, and I only need to mix small batches at a time.

If I required bulk medium, I'd be searching for someone who carried pine or fir bark pieces in bulk, and I'd be buying 50 pound bags of turface and large amounts of granite chips or cherrystone.

Hi Jodi,
We didn't make it to the pet shop this weekend.. oops..lol!
But I will get there and look.

If you pay more for something pre screened, I guess it would come out the same because we would need more of what we buy because we have less when done. So in the end we probably pay as much as you and have more work to do! ;)

HMMM... maybe I should run to pets mart today~ LOL! ;)

I plant to make good use of the sifted fines, for seed starting and such, but i'm sure not alot of people will need it in the amounts I do. So I don't mind the left overs.

Did that make sense?? LOL! It does to me in my world. ;)

I was going to check with John deere about bark when they call me about my turface.

JoJo

Jojo,

I'll bet that your yard soil, especially where your plants are, could really use the fines mixed in...Over a period of time, while everyone else's plants are thirsty to death from parch arid land with your temps over summer, your's will be basking in nice moist soil!!

:-)!

Already planned on it Mike. ;)

I just got off the phone with my John Deere Rep. He is ordering me 2 bags of Pine bark fines, 2 cubic foot bags! Woo Hoo! from florida. LOL! And My turface is in!
I will pick it all up next week!

He has been wonderful to work with!

If you have a dealer in your area, talk to them!

Here is a link that might be useful: John Deere Locations

jodik I didn't say Lowe's sold reptile bedding . I was stating that Lowe's had pine bark and its much cheaper than the reptile bedding at Walmart .I wasn't describing coco coir either.

If I may request a referee ruling please? 8-)

The Reptibark. Which mix is it appropriate in:
The 5-1-1 as the Fines component?
Or the Gritty Mix as the Bark component?

There are two threads going, one says Reptibark is a good reference for understanding the uncomposted bark size for Gritty Mix, and this one which says it matches the Bark FINES for 5-1-1.

I was of the impression the bark in the Durable (Gritty) Mix For Long-Term Container Plantings is ideally bigger than 'fines' but parallel threads like these cast doubt. Maybe it is all the same. Doubt is good, we can nip misunderstandings in the bud.

Once it's nailed down, having a nationally-consistent size reference will be such a big help, a Rosetta Stone* of sorts. Plus a quick starter kit for small batches!

Yeah, it's not exactly cheap, but KNOWING is priceless...

Thanks in advance. Apologies in advance if I'm overthinking this!

Rick

*or Rosetta Nugget as it were (sorry 8-))

Here is a link that might be useful: The Other Reptibark Thread - Contradictory?

I think the confusing word in this whole Pine/Fir Bark search and destroy mission is "fines".

In actuality, "fines" are tiny particles of a material... too small for practical use.

The approximate size of Pine/Fir Bark we're after is dime sized... somewhere around 1/8 to 1/4 or a touch larger. I think it's termed "fines" because it's much smaller than the normal mulch pieces in most bagged yard and garden mulch products.

In his basic article, Al states, "The key to good drainage is size and uniformity of soil particles. Mixing large particles with small is often very ineffective because the smaller particles fit between the large, increasing surface area which increases the capillary attraction and thus the water holding potential."

In each of his medium recipes, the first ingredient is Pine Bark Fines. However, there doesn't seem to be a distinction between using different sized bark pieces for the different mixes.

The best place to start for finding concrete answers is in the article, itself, linked below. My understanding is that the same fir bark pieces used in one mix are used in all the mixes as the base ingredient. If there is some difference between sizes in the mixes, I'm not aware of it.

Perhaps someone who has been using Al's Mixes for quite a while now, and using more than one of his recipes, can tell us whether or not there is a marked difference between recipes, regarding bark size. Anyone?

I think it's the word "fines" that is confusing, here...

Here is a link that might be useful: Container Soils - Water Movement and Retention IX

Jodi nailed it!
The confusing word is "fines," which can mean "Bark Mulch" in general, or can refer to the tiny particles sifted from the mulch. I prefer the latter meaning.

The Pine/Fir Bark used in all recipes should fall within the range Jodi gave - 1/8 to 1/4 inch.

I have made both dry and moist mixes.

When I re-potted a large fern, I used those "fines" from the Pine/Fir Bark to increase the moisture retention in the mix.

Josh

The Reptibark would be good in the gritty mix, not so much in the 5-1-1, the way I understand things.

Jodik said- In each of his medium recipes, the first ingredient is Pine Bark Fines.

That's not the way I read it.

It is, though.

5-1-1 = the first number is parts of Bark.

1-1-1 = one part Bark, two parts grit.

If anything, the role of Bark is greater in the 5-1-1.

Perhaps I have misunderstood?

Josh

I thought I had read in a thread that the 5-1-1 should be made with partially composted, which the reptibark isn't.

And the gritty, uncomposted is better, where the reptibark would be good.

Someone please correct me if wrong. I will come back and post the tread if I can find it.

I hope im not misunderstanding the post by lrvjim, if I have and am confusing things im sorry.

JoJo

Well maybe I'm confused but I thought the 5-1-1 wanted pine bark fines and the gritty mix called for uncomposted pine or fir bark 1/8 to 1/4 inch size, ideally. I don't see those as being the same thing. Like I said, maybe I'm confused, but I'm just reading what he wrote.

Maybe 'The Doctor' will weigh in and square up this issue. Where has he been?

That's just logistics, or semantics... what Al means is that pine/fir bark is an important ingredient in all of his mixes.

How it's worded exactly, in terms of which ingredient is listed first, is not as important as amounts, sizes, and actual materials.

In most ingredient listings, whether a recipe or on an item label, the majority ingredient is normally listed first. But here, that's not really the important part... the important thing is that we all understand what material we need, how large or small the particles should be, and what amount we should use in reference to the other ingredients.

I could list it as:

5 parts pine bark
1 part perlite
1 part turface

or:

1 part turface
5 parts pine bark
1 part granite chips

or any number of other ways. As long as we know the material, the material size, and the material amount, we're in business! :-)

(Disclaimer: the above recipes are for example ONLY, and are not indicative of Al's actual recipes for mediums. Please read Al's articles for ACTUAL recipes.)

I use the same size Bark for either mix.

I was under the impression that the partially composted Bark is to help with wicking in self-watering containers.

Josh

This is some of what Al posted for me while I am learning to make the gritty mix.

I took it as the bark should be a certian size and the "fines" to be the dust, dirt, and tiny pieces screened out.

""The soil is well-thought out. The inorganic ingredients are chosen for size (extremely important) and their considerable contrast in water retention. When you start changing those ingredients, you really alter the physical characteristics of the soil. I'm not saying it won't work well, but you'll end up with something considerably different than the gritty mix.

For best results:

* Size is important. You want the particles to be as close to 1/8" as possible, and all fines should be screened out.

* It's important that the bark component is pine or fir bark. Other mulches and wood products won't work well. It's ok if the bark is slightly larger than 1/8", but it should be screened and almost all the particles 1/8" or larger to 5/16" or smaller.

I will look around some in a bit and see if I can find what I had read about semi composted. :)

Hope this was of some help

JoJo

The only thing I can determine from Al's article is that uncomposted pine/fir bark can be used for long term or woody types of plantings... because it will take longer to break down, thus allowing for the longer term in the pot.

Other than that, I see the important things being size, actual material, and amount. That's it.

Partially composted or uncomposted would be the choice of the gardener... and would depend on how long the plant needs to stay in that mix without being re-potted.

The word "fines" is irrelevant in this application, and for our purposes... and means exactly what JoJo states.

That's my take on it, too, Jojo. Same size bark for both mixes.

Check the Threads on self-watering containers for the "composted" bark mention.

Josh

If you will look at the thread listed below you will see a picture posted by Al himself which highlights the difference in bark and bark fines. One very suitable for the 5-1-1 and the other 2 for the gritty mix.

Here is 'cut-n-paste' Al's 5-1-1-

5 parts pine bark fines
1 part sphagnum peat (not reed or sedge peat please)
1-2 parts perlite
(deletia)

Here is the gritty mix, 'cut-n-paste'-
1 part uncomposted pine or fir bark
1 part Turface
1 part crushed granite
(deletia)

Judging from the pic he posted the Reptibark would be more suited to the gritty mix and there is a difference between bark and bark fines as he sees it. The fines being suitable for the 5-1-1 but not for the gritty mix.

You will need to scroll down to see the pic. Where is Al?

Here is a link that might be useful: Pic from thread VII

Hi my friends!!!

I have a feeling you are all doing a great job, because if there was a correction that had to be made, I am sure our friend would be the first here to correct it..:-)

He could be just sitting back and smiling at these posts, or not well. Maybe even banned from these threads for no harm done. Not like that hasn't happened before..But, I just hope he is fine! We miss you here

Mike

And this is why I love all of y'all... the patient explanations and even more, the passion on the topic, that it matters to get it right. That's how I feel, I want to really understand and work from there. I care about bark size. Where else could I possibly go to discuss that?!?

I see the point of view of each of these responses, and have my own opinion, but haven't seen a definitive slam-dunk to affirm my guess - or to set me straight.

I like the pictures. I think a ruling 'Ex Cathedra' on the Repti-Bark would be even better. It's 3-D. I can buy a bag and feel it with my own hands and know, "this is what the bark in XXXX Mix should feel and look like."

Bring more senses to bear on the question, ya know?

And I also truly hope tapla is better-than-well... I'd say 'fine' but- there are different meanings to THAT word. 8-)

I'll be damned... it does look a little different in the photo. I wonder if that's because it's wet?

The reason I ask is because Al would never condone the use of a product that was fine, in the true sense of the word... that would completely negate the whole concept of the mix, which is to provide aeration that doesn't compact, thus suffocating the roots!

Personally, I would be wary of anything that was truly "fine".

I just took a look, now below is what Al had posted above the pic. I think he is calling the real dark stuff "mulch" and in another thread, I think he refered to it as composted pine bark for short term plantings.

Is mulch and fines the same thing, then theres the chunky stuff which is the bark? Pine bark and fir, which is on each side of the picture.

Jodi, the stuff in my pic. of my mix came from a mulch at the home depot, and I sifted out the dusty, and crumbs, and such, kinda like al refers to in this , that I copied and pasted.

"""Pine bark doesn't shred. Look for things like pine bark 'soil conditioner,'clay buster', 'mulch', etc. It's sold under a variety of names. I've found fines at Home Depot several times, so it might be worth another look.

What you see at the top is ideal for the 5:1:1 mix. The other two bark components would be just right in the gritty mix."""

JoJo

Reptibark works great for either grit mix or the 5-1-1 mix. It's a good size and needs no screening.

Pound for pound it's considerably more expensive than pine bark but you can use it right out of the bag and not mess with screening. Reptibark or other similar products should be easy to find at any Petco or other pet stores in your area.

If I were all about bulk, I would find another product that was as similar to Reptibark as I could find... but since I only need small amounts for indoor growing, I love the ease of the Reptibark. The price... well, that's the cost of not having to screen it.

I love the fact that I can dump it right out of the bag and into the bucket I mix the medium in. No fuss, no extra work, no dust, no waste. It's perfect.

When I do decide I need larger quantities, I'll be looking for something as close to that as I possibly can find. In some areas of the country, products that are pure fir/pine bark are difficult to locate. But I think it's well worth the searching and being picky about what you eventually buy.

Well, I have pine trees, pine logs and pine cones (which the squirrels helpfully shred for me). The pine-cone "petals" that the squirrels pull out when eating the pine nuts, are hard and half-a-dime wide and two dimes long and about a dime thick.
I was seeking knowledge more than sourcing, and the picture referred above is very clear. I can buy composted bark to use in 5-1-1 until a batch of my own composts, I guess ~1-2 years. And use a lawn mower and screen to make fresh bark into ReptiBark-like durable chunks for Gritty Mix.
Thanks, everybody. I'm off to paint "Save Al" on our water tower...

Here is a link that might be useful: Scroll Down to Apr 7, 09 at 15:14

I recently sent Al an email asking him a few questions about his soiless mix. I received a reply today saying that he is in fact banned from GW.

If you can think of anything positive to mention in this bid to get Al reinstated at GW

Where Is Al ?

would you consider adding your voice?

RE: Where Is Al ? clip this post email this post what is this?
see most clipped and recent clippings

Posted by vancewood z5MI (vancewood@wowway.com) on Tue, Jan 19, 10 at 17:27

I lurk here from time to time but have not been a constant presence for many years. I just received an email from Al and I guess he has been booted off the site for, in his words; "Pressing a point too hard". I know Al personally, I have been to the club he belongs to on several occasions to give demonstrations and work shops and we communicate on the Internet all the time. For what it's worth Al is one of the good guys, I cannot imagine him pushing anyone's buttons hard enough to get him booted off this site. Any way, that's what I know and now you know. Just remember, anything I say, along with $4.00, will get you a cup of Coffee at Star Bucks

Respectfully Submitted
Quote from Al in "Container Part VI"
I hope this is helpful!
Link is below and scroll down to Fri, Jan 30, 09 at 14:28 to find, In The Words Of tapla:

"I like bark best, and the best size for the 5:1:1 mix is sawdust to 1/4" pieces and partially composted, with most of the particles concentrated in the 1/16-3/16 size."

Here is a link that might be useful: scroll down to Fri, Jan 30, 09 at 14:28