Here's the stove wall. Yep, no uppers. For now. I don't want any guff about it :D We're gonna try it and we have a big basement with a lot of storage, that's where most of our appliances are anyway. We can add two 20" uppers if we hate it or when we're ready to sell. Not sure yet what we'll do in terms of tile. They mocked it up with plain old subway, I'm trying desperately to avoid it. There is a bit of wall space on the end, I'm going to have a (hard to explain it) flip up countertop piece (butcher block, not soapstone...) mounted on that end so we can have extra work space if needed. Mom's hubby actually builds cabinets (don't ask, long story...short answer is they live in Florida...), he already came up with a nice plan for it.

Here's the top view BEFORE we redid the fridge and cabinet sizes. We now have this (and I don't have an updated drawing):

33" fridge with 36" upper cab above, 18" upper and lower/trash cabinet, 36" sink base, 24" dw and 24" upper, 30" micro cabinet over a 30" lower cab. We are widening the doorway to get more light into the kitchen. The circles are recessed lights.

Also...2D pic before we redid the cabinet sizes. Don't have an updated drawing (and the highlighted markings are my own doodles, disregard, they didn't work out...)

I'm just over it all at this point. We're in a contract, can't back out and that's that.

Oh, no! Reno fatigue! I'll get the wine!

It'll be OK, Lisa. Once you get it done, you'll enjoy working in your new space. I like the tile detail, and that will be nice for keeping things clean behind the range. Do think about doing an inventory of what you keep in your kitchen and where you will store it in your NEW kitchen. Make sure everything has somewhere to go, before you totally commit to the lack of uppers by the range. (I'm in favor of that, by the way, and doing something similar)

Hang in there!

Holly, I want to try for the no uppers for the natural light benefit and to make it look a bit larger in there. I looked into doing a sintered surface (a slab of gauged porcelain...) on the stove wall. Neolith or the MSI Stile product. I'd get that "I never want to scrub grout schmutz off the stove wall" look. But it's pricey and requires special installers to handle it, so tile it is. We may still do largER format tile on that stove wall, or even just a strip of tile 36" wide behind the stove (the fume hood is gonna be 36"). Not sure yet, we need to pick the damn tile by this weekend, I'm just...I can't even. It's supposed to be fun, but it's just one long failure, here. Yes, it will look nice, but I'm making mistakes left and right, and they're not cheap.

If you seal the grout, you shouldn't have a problem keeping it clean. I never do and I cook a lot. I always get excited for a new reno and then the stress of dealing with workers and trying to get stuff that I dream of but can't find or maybe can't afford, always makes it stressful. But I am sure it is not a big failure of a bunch of mistakes. In the end it is all just stuff. I am sure you will enjoy new cabinets, new hood, new counter tops etc. All brand new. So exciting! Just stand up for your rights and don't worry what the builders or anyone else think. It will all be over and you will be happy in the end.

Lisa G., I hope everything works out and that you love your new kitchen. I'm sorry you've had to go through so much stress along the way.

"A dozen unhappy people" Nobody was or is unhappy. The OP was unhappy, was she not?. A Sharp microwave drawer could have worked on that wall, btw. : ) BELOW the counter.

No matter the size or resources for a kitchen, it's a planning event. The "I'm so over it" doesn't have to happen, and shouldn't happen. You don't need to have shoulda woulda coulda outcomes. It doesn't have to be rushed to suit a contractors timetable, and it SHOULDN'T be rushed to suit your own timetable either.

" We have to pick the tile by the weekend"

No, you DON'T. Tile is the very last thing to be installed. Tile can happen when ever you want. There are tile folks totally independent of THIS contractors tile guy whomever he is.. The counter selection happens before a tile selection, no tile can go on a wall until that counter is installed on the cabinets, the ones that are still in a warehouse attached to an office.

It's one thing to have misery happen because life can just stink out loud. It's another thing, to just keep on "rolling over" and then announcing you're just over it. Pull up those big girl panties.

Maybe the layout isn't the best it could be, or maybe it is, but it is far from a failure! It will be fine and you will enjoy it. I like your idea of no uppers for an open feel, since you have storage in the basement.

And perhaps others will take inspiration from the things discussed in this thread, so feel good about that too.

Let me just throw out the suggestion (last one, I promise!) that, since you do have a larger sink base, you use that space for trash/recycling/compost (yes I have all that plus my necessary detergents etc in my 30" base thanks Ikea) and use your trash cabinet for other storage -- maybe convert it to drawers (can be done, it is not too late).

Tile really can wait, there is no law of the universe that says your contractor must do everything when he wants -- of course he wants to get it all done, paid for and off his plate, but again, he is working for you not vice versa. And, if you don't find any tile that rings your bells, think about paint with a painted (stencil, perhaps) design. I have paint only, and after 5 years of washing it weekly, it is like new.

Also, think about a color on the ceiling, if you end up with a ceiling. That can bring an entirely different feel to a space.

Good luck, and please come back and show us the finished reno! We all learn from the before & afters.

Fight for something better than that layout. That is a giant step backwards. A new kitchen is supposed to be better than the old. I wouldn’t even let them demo that kitchen yet. With all the issues, they can just refund you and you can do better elsewhere.

A total refund and starting anew with another contractor is definitely something to consider. I know you want it be over and life to return to normal, but the stress you feel now WILL end - IF you aren't constantly walking into your kitchen and kicking yourself for what could have been if only you'd suffered more in the beginning for the long-term joy of loving the result.

Please know, I say that only in the context of if you're not 100% happy with the current design. No one here has to like what you're doing. Only you do. But please don't sacrifice solid results to avoid the inconveniences. You can't have one without the other. It's your hard-earned money!

Pam A, I love you so much for that post! Best. Advice. Ever.

“Compromising” for a smaller 33” fridge because a major design error should have you riled up enough to put a STOP to even considering moving forward. A company that would do that to you, among the rest of the issues, doesn’t deserve to do your project.

Don't let renovation fatigue drive you to feel that you need to accept the unacceptable. That design is not acceptable.

...just got a quote for soapstone countertops: $2900 for materials, templating, fabrication and installation. We have about 29sq feet of countertop, so that's $100 sq foot. That sounds too good to be true in our part of the country (D.C.) My hubs says I'm being a suspicious bizzatch about everything at this point (I don't disagree), I just fired off an email to our "designer" thankin him for doing the footwork and telling him I'm surprised at how affordable it is, and I asked him where we now need to go in order to view, TEST and pick our slab. I also asked him to confirm that we do NOT need to purchase an entire slab. One more "bad" or incomplete response from these people and I need to find a way to get OUT of this agreement, because they're not being honest. Or helpful. Or communicative. I'm going to stand in front of any slab they tell me to look at, and I'll whip out a lighter and a needle, tell 'em I'm about to stick that burning hot pin on the slab. If they freak out, I'm done with all of them.

Be done now. You can do better in all respects.

Way to go girl!

Also...Jan...how am I going to pull out the dw or appliances for (godforbid) repairs if they're "tiled in"? I thought tile went under the appliances so you could pull 'em out if you had to?

OMG...designer just responded to my "do we need to buy the whole slab if we only need 29sq ft" with: "YOU ARE NOT PURCHASING A SLAB. YOU ARE PURCHASING A PARTICULAR AMOUNT MATERIAL TO BE INSTALLED IN A UNIQUE ENVIRONMENT. WHETHER IT TAKES THE FABRICATOR 1 SLAB OR 10 SLABS TO ACCOMPLISH THE JOB." Like, it was sent in all caps. WTH is going on??

how am I going to pull out the dw or appliances for (godforbid) repairs if they're "tiled in"?

Good question. I am sure a pro will explain to you how it is done, but we have this problem. The previous owner installed hardwood on top of the vinyl that was in the kitchen. We cant pull the DW out without taking the floor out. It's a pain and we're planning to remove the hardwood and install vinyl.

So it is a valid question, even if I am sure a pro will have an answer.

Lisa, I am so sorry you have to deal with these jerks. I hope you find a way to get what you want. Don't let them take your money and deliver a kitchen you won't like by bullying you.

I think there was a misunderstanding, and thought OP was going to pick out backsplash tile.

So, it's floor tile that you're picking this weekend?

I need to pick out floor AND backsplash. It's the darn countertops we're having issues with now. I just got a rude, all caps bullshite response from our contractor re: the soapstone countertop quote they just gave us. Too good to be true, I asked for more information and their response was...I'm super pissed.

For our new build we laid the kitchen/foyer tile afterwards, in hindsight hubby said he should have done it first,before the island went in. Don't take any crap, it is your $$$.

don't let them push you into a backsplash yet.

These people sound like they are completely incompetent. I would be sorely tempted to respond with "OMG DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT I WOULD NOT CHOOSE MY OWN SLAB?!?!".

Oy vey.

If the quote for $2900 includes all materials it sounds like that would include the soapstone. If you are willing to pay that price, whether you are buying the entire slab or a remnant makes no difference (but, if you have bought an entire slab, it ALL belongs to you.) Around here, stone yards do require one to buy a full slab, unless they happen to have a remnant that will work. They won't divide a full slab for a job.

For sure tell them that you want to be able to pick out the stone,and the part that will be used where, so you don't end up with a piece that has a pattern or inclusion that would annoy you. And also you need to know just what type of soapstone they are proposing (as someone up thread pointed out, it comes in different colors, patterns, hardness etc, some less suitable for kitchens, some more)

You might want to look at M. Texeira Soapstone and talk to them about the differences in various soapstones and pricing. They have a location in DC, btw.

@Lisa:

I'd make the kitchen flooring same as the hardwood in the hall. Don't cut up small spaces with changes in flooring.

By tile, I was referring to backsplash .

IF you use a tile on the kitchen floor , yes it needs to be under dishwasher, range, and fridge. But!!! It doesn't need to be under lower cabinetry , which can be SHIMMED for install. Meaning?! A floor of any type can go last. New builds often happen that way. Especially with a hardwood.

!Now..... any more bs from these folks ?

Id find a way to walk away . Because as much as you may not know what you're doing and by that I mean ANY knowledge of what good design process is??? Your team seems to know even less.

We bought soapstone for just a bit more square footage, and we absolutely did buy a slab. We went to the stoneyard with my xeroxed quarter-inch graph paper plan; they figured out the best raw size of slab to use; they sketched out how the counters would be cut from the slab for the best grain results. They even noted a few chunks that would be left over that we wound up using on the top of a pony wall.

^^THIS^^ is the sort of dialogue you should be having with anyone whom you are paying to work on your house!

I just did my kitchen, and paid per square foot for my counters. I still picked the slabs and approved the layout. But the stone company didn’t price by the slab plus fabrication. It was sqft. So it’s not unheard of.

We just finished two bathrooms and the stone yard didn't require buying a whole slab. Four years ago for our kitchen, that fabricator and stone yard required the whole slab. Both worked out fine.

Lisa, stop asking questions and start making statements.
Don’t ask “ I will pick out the slab, right?
Say “I will pick out and test the slab to be used in my kitchen”.
When you get any pushback, please respond to these people with:
“ I don’t think you understand, I am not asking for your permission, I am setting the expectations.”

We needed two slabs for ours-price was right around $100 a square foot, installed

And I just want to say I’m so sorry-what a nightmare.

If I could find a way to get out of this now, I would. I'd tell them to deliver the cabinets, keep a small portion of the project deposit to cover their work to date, and I'd just find someone else to do the rest. I can't believe this has become so hard. I want soapstone. Real soapstone. It's not that difficult. Took them 4 days to come back with the estimate. I don't want phyllite, I don't want leathered quartz or Silestone's "soapstone" product. I've touched and looked at enough slabs of honest to god soapstone that I know what it is and I know I want it. Why can't they just give me that? Why the hell wouldn't I pick out a slab?? And that $2900 for all materials, templating, fabrication, delivery and install is SCARY low. The quotes we got for mid grade quartz were higher. It absolutely does not add up. So, given that I'm stuck with these people, how do I make damn sure that the real soapstone slab I pick and ask them to confirm will be the ONLY source of soapstone used in my kitchen, is ACTUALLY finally what's installed? I have zero trust in them right now. Maybe they're busy, maybe we're not spending as much money as other clients, it doesn't matter: I don't trust them to get this right w/o me having to be a raging bizzatch. I didn't want to be the kitchenzilla wife. PS - THANK you to everyone, I appreciate all comments, good bad and snarky ;D God bless the Queen and Houzz.

So what would it cost you to get out of this now?

Maybe you can get out of it. What does your contract say about that? If he yells at you again bluntly tell him to stop sending you rude statements. For sure, save all those texts and emails for your future court date. If he yells at you in person, call the police. I had to do that one time when a very large contractor started yelling at me in my house while I was alone. I called the police. He wasn't arrested, but they escorted him away. GC was told not to send that person anymore.

If you're lucky, they'll get annoyed with all your questioning and quit. That's what happened to me. I had a bad GC quit one time when I questioned their waterproofing practices. He got mad and just quit. Then he sued me. That was 18 months ago. In April, the judge ruled in our favor for twice the amount we had paid him. Keep all records, emails, text messages, and do not let verbal communications stand on their own. Always document a verbal conversation or agreement with a follow-up email to confirm what was discussed and decided, as a "check for understanding." If you're not doing this already, keep all your texts, emails, etc very calm and business-like just in case they are ever printed out and handed to a judge.

This may have gotten buried in all the other information in this thread, but you should pick out the backsplash tile LAST, after everything is installed. Last I tell you. Unless you have an amazing and very experienced eye, you will not be able to tell which backsplash color and pattern will look good with your kitchen until the kitchen has everything installed. So for now, cross off backsplash tile from your to-do list, and don’t give it any more thought. Tell your contractor and designer to remove the backsplash from the scope of work.

As to stone slabs for countertops, I’ve learned from being on this forum for years that the method varies regionally. In some parts of the country, you can buy the amount of stone you exactly need. But in many areas, including mine, you buy by the slab. You buy the entire slab. If you need less than a slab, sometimes you get lucky and find a remnant in the right size, but most of the time, you have to buy an entire slab even if you just need e.g. 15 linear feet. Or, if your kitchen needs a slab-and-a-half, then you must buy 2 slabs. That’s how it works in many parts of the country, so your 29 s.f. (and, BTW, your counters are supposed to be in LINEAR feet) isn’t very meaningful for the quote.

A typical slab’s length by width will be about 45 s.f. but you need to account for turning corners, the cut-out for sink, shape of kitchen, and waste, so that the yield will be less than that. I think your 29 sf definitely needs an entire slab (I couldn’t tell from your post who said you’d need less than a slab - did someone say that exactly, or was that you?). You should be thinking of your kitchen counter as a slab you will purchase plus its fabrication, not “29 s.f.”

Hi Shannon. I don't know if I need a whole slab or not (I doubt it), but to buy it or not isn't even the issue. The issue was that he indicated we would NOT pick out a slab at all...he wrote (this is verbatim, including the screamy all caps): YOU ARE NOT PURCHASING A SLAB. YOU ARE PURCHASING A PARTICULAR AMOUNT OF MATERIAL TO BE INSTALLED IN A UNIQUE ENVIRONMENT. WHETHER IT TAKES THE FABRICATOR 1 SLAB OR 10 SLABS TO ACCOMPLISH THE JOB." I have absolutely no idea what that means. It's the "1 slab or 10 slabs to accomplish the job" that really throws me.

Then move on.

With your next contractor and designer, expect to buy a slab.

Tomorrow is the meeting, right? I would go in with a list of questions, a separate list of concerns, and I would plan to sit there until they were all addressed. I’d also make sure that you and your husband are on the exact same page before going in so that no one is playing good cop and saying things that you don’t really mean (side eyes my super overly friendly husband).

It seems like tomorrow can only have one of two good outcomes: either you state your concerns and they respond in a way that gives you confidence about the project, or they let you out of the contract. How you communicate with them needs to lead to one of these outcomes. What needs to not happen is that you leave more frustrated or confused than you already are.

Seriously, good luck. I know that this stuff sucks, and even though I’ve lurked on Houzz for years, I still feel in over my head now that we’re in the middle of a renovation and we’ve got a killer crew. It’s okay that you’re not an expert at all of this, but you need to become an expert at advocating for yourself and protecting yourself financially.

If the company you chose has a good reputation and a history of happy customers then it may be a matter of miscommunication, where each party is 15 percent off in understanding what the other is saying. Sometimes that just happens. And when it happens each party gets irritated. I think for customers it feels like we are staring at a black box in terms of the actual building process. We don’t know what we don’t know. Four days, for example, is not a long turn around time to get an estimate on a counter, because the shop needs the specs from the contractor first and then someone on their end needs to sit down and do the math and a rough drawing and get the bid back to the contracter. In my case one stone .outfit took a week to reply, another took two weeks. And maybe the designer is frustrated, thinking they’d done all this work to get you the price in a timely manner, what do you care about the details? It is a good price btw, i would thank the person for their fast reply (despite the rude All Caps thing) and ask where I should go the view the material. You don’t know what they’ve found for you until you actually see it. Re In picking a slab at the stone yard, the people there mark your selection with your name. In my case I took a pix of the slab and the inventory number while at the yard. What you pick on-site should be what you get. I would then send a cheerful note to the project manager with the inventory number and how you are looking forward to your counters.

I did a succession of fairly major projects ( kitchen remodel, rebuild of corner of house and basement, replacement of fencing, and deck, gutters, HVAC, appliances, flooring for the entire house, installation of new sub panels, and rewiring for kitchen, replacement of lighting fixtures interiors and exterior, etc. It involved multiple subcontractors. My take away was this: most of these people are working on multiple projects and when you leave them a message their first thought is “is it on fire?” If there isn’t anything on fire and if you sent a page of questions then they will take care of any parts that seem sensible to them for that stage of the project then wait a couple of days and send some laconic message that seems completely opaque. It doesn’t mean things aren't on track or that stuff isn't happening.

If you stick with these people then focus on your part of it - it’s fair to ask when they need your selections, and then get them the information they need. If the job is now slated to start in late July and they have the cabinets onsite then, to their mind, the job is “on the calendar“ I.e. it’s a happening thing. That is their reality and their understanding of the process. Nothing so far says they are going to flit out of town or refuse to supply soapstone instead of quartz. My suggestion would be to keep things amicable, keep good records, politely stick to your choices, and see how it goes.

The all caps was rude, but I think that all he was saying is, the price is the price no matter how many (or less than) slabs it requires to do the job -- the material is included. Nothing nefarious intended.

But it seems to me that with a "fixed" price, if you had not already had input into what variety of soapstone (eg Santa Rita, Albemarle, etc) they are choosing that and probably it is the lowest cost variety. I would want to ask to choose both the variety and the particular slab, even if it increases the price.

Two years ago I built a house with 6 bathrooms, 2 large kitchen islands , a bar and an outdoor kitchen. I used a combination of granite, leathered granite and quartz. We were charged by the foot and not the slab. Clearly, this is an option with some builders and vendors.

I think at this point the biggest issue is that the OP and contractor are in an adversarial relationship and the work has not even begun. If the relationship cannot be repaired prior to starting the job , and I suspect at this point it cannot be, it would be best if both parties walked away from the project.

I have a vendor that emails in all caps. Means nothing. It's just easier for him, I guess. Don't let this derail the project. It's time for a re-boot. It may be much easier to re-align then it can be to re-start with someone new.

I wouldn't be upset with 4 days on the soapstone price.

1. Contractors/kitchen stores work with fabricators. Most places don't have a set price list so you are at the fabricators mercy to get a price back to you. Sometimes quotes are done within a half hour...and sometimes it takes days. In my area, soapstone is not as common. Every time I have to quote it, I have to have it quoted by the fabricator who has to get a quote on the slabs and variety of soapstone from a supplier. It can take time. Soapstone is a commodity and prices fluctuate over time.

2. Contractors and kitchen people are swamped right now. I can ballpark any stock quartz or stone within minutes for a client....but anything non-stock, I must wait from the supplier and fabricator. For a full kitchen gut job quote, I'm averaging two weeks to prepare the quote.

3. I also don't think he meant anything mean with the all caps. Some people don't know that means shouting. I think he was also just trying to let you know HOW the stone was quoted. I believe wherever he got it, must stock it....that's why you aren't buying a whole slab...you're paying for actual SF used. I'm sure that supplier will allow you to select your slab. OR, If you want to go out and buy a whole full slab and spend more to get what you want, I don't know why he would have a problem with that other than losing out on one aspect of the remodel. He also may not want to touch the top in any way if he isn't supplying it. Like the plumbing hookup...he may pass on that and ask you to sub out your own plumber. I would completely understand that. Sometimes when homeowners purchase part of the job/materials on their own, it can cause slow downs and liability issues.

Wow so much happening... how did the meeting go today???

My take on the countertop - every fabricator prices things differently - it is not as simple as plain sq ft anymore if you are dealing with a place that supplies and fabricates the stone. The final price often includes various edge details, sink cutouts, etc. Some places charge for full slabs if it is a special order or item they don't deal with or will have trouble selling off what is left. $100/ sq ft for soapstone definitely does not sound like they are selling you the whole slab if the total is $2900 - that seems like great price ( IF it includes template delivery and installation ).

Up until your post you were happy with what you were doing and the direction your space was going into - find that again....

Your cabinets have been ordered ( contrary to what others have posted, they are not returnable ), you approved the design.

If you want to get out of the rest, maybe you can have them do you floors and all the items up to installing you cabinets. Then cut ties. Do your counter and backsplash on your own.

I do hope you have a good meeting! I'm sure we'll hear from you...

Updates?