Rox , I'm so sorry, but you have lovely memories of your dear son. I always wondered too about obits that state the family was surrounding him/her as they died. That has never happened in my family. I was too young when the grandparents died, so I don't know who was with them. My father, who had lung cancer, died in a hospital in another state. They lived close to the border, and the hospital in Maryland had the best facility. My mother made daily trips to spend time with him, but when she arrived one day, they were cleaning his room.

I moved her down to a nursing home two miles from me when she was 90 because she couldn't manage her house, suffering from mild dementia. The home had her taken to a local hospital since she appeared to have fainted. I wasn't even called till later. She remained there, and I visited her one day and went home to eat, and got a call that she had died. Times have changed, I think, for the better.

@ dedtired

When my FIL died last year, it was obvious that the end was near. The hospital waived all the rules about visitors (we were respectful and kept it quiet.) They even brought in a cart with drinks and snacks,

There were about 13 family members in or near the room. In the last couple of minutes, 11 of us crowded around his bed. Everyone put a hand on him. Yes he passed surrounded by loved ones.

@roxsolid - It’s absolutely not a problem that my thread took a detour! All comments were welcome as my view of these threads is that they’re conversations which, if they’re interesting, always take a circuitous route. Also, the side conversations were relevant to the topic. As for finding what I’m looking for - I know I’m looking for info to help me set expectations about Death Cafe meetings so I can decide if I really do want to attend one. Other than that, I’m not looking for anything specific.

KW, I’ve been thinking about this.

Most of us have said how we have experienced the death of others. I realise that you are (I think) talking about your own mortality.

Personally, thinking about my own death, I know that I am not afraid. I feel that I have had my fair share of years, I hope to have many more, I’m at peace with the people that count in my life.

eta We were posting at the same time! sorry

Roxsolid, I'm so sorry for your loss. Your acceptance and focus on his life is truly inspiring.

We have people who help bring us into the world. Why wouldn't we want people to be with and comfort us at the time we are going out? I agree, Murraysmom. Based on FOAS's findings above, a death doula seems to provide some valuable functions.

My father lived independently until the final two months of his life. Those two months have shaped much of how I view death and dying. I will not need a death doula, but I think they would be helpful for families who haven't been through the process before.

KW, let us know if you decide to attend the meeting. It could be educational and enlightening, or it could simply be a death doula marketing their services (not a bad thing, either).

OT . I adore Monty Python, especially ...and the Holy Grail...and the mnister of silly walks....and on and on. Thanks for the giggle.

Well, I just shared an on-topic story, but lost it. Maybe I will repeat it later.

Feathers, my comment was directed at arcy and her disdain about having someone present to help with the passing of a loved one. I'm all for it. I, too, have no qualms about dying. While my parents lived to be in their 90's, none of my siblings, with the exception of one (86), made it to or out of their 70's. I'm 75. I have made most of my arrangements, so I'm good to go.

roxsolid, I can't add anything more about the loss of your son. Others said it all so well. I am sorry for your loss and inspired by the way you have carried on with your life.

I don't think anyone should feel gratified or blessed how so many members of extreme religious groups, currently overrepresented in one of the political parties, ignore the real teachings of their sacred religious heritage, picking, choosing and corrupting dogma and ignoring truth to suit their purposes, and then parade their resulting attitudes and policies suggesting they are guided by the teachings of divine supreme beings. Which is blatantly made-up and false.

It sure ain’t what J esus would do!

@KW PNW Z8 since you are curious, you really have nothing to lose by attending to find out if it's worth your time. I would find it fascinating to hear what others think about death and maybe I'd find info to add to my own ideas about it.

I would definitely go if I were interested and if I didn't like it, I would simply get up and leave.

I am still thinking about this one. I don't think I would want to go, and yet I can't explain why. That's rare for me, I usually have plenty of words. 😄

I guess it is because maybe I don't have any unanswered questions for myself. And other people's thoughts on it aren't of interest to me either. I suspect it would detour into religious angles, and I can have great frustration with those. (Topic for another day and it would never survive long here. 😄🙄 As a child I was abused by a priest. What I think about that "institution" would never make it past the filter.)

I am very comfortable in my own beliefs. I don't generally care about others. If you want to have a theory based discussion, that can be interesting. But most people can't do that without veering into their thinly veiled superiority complex of why they have the One True Answer. And I have had enough of that to last me a lifetime.

Look at that, I did have words. 😆

Rox, you inspire me. So impressed with you. 🌷🌷

“Rox, you inspire me. So impressed with you.”

Me too. I was thinking I’ve rarely heard such a healthy response to the unimaginable.

I’m extremely sorry to hear of your experience. Words fail me for a second time on this thread.

I’m getting increasingly interested to hear what goes on at these meetings. Interested enough to hope KW goes and to read what she reports back, not interested enough to go myself.

"Dr Fauci has unfortunately run into this buzz saw of ignorance yet again."

Elmer, yeah...lying Dr. Fauci…the most influential voice of the pandemic-the one so many people and hospital administrations, etc treated like gospel, and most here bought it hook, line, and sinker! Thanks to his overblown and unproven medical influence-definitely not "trust the science" ridiculousness he spouted and went back and forth on...we got the rigid isolation rules that left a whole lot of elderly and others dying alone-with phones as their only goodbye, if even that. Must have been just wonderful for them and their families. Not.

A request to any who are reading this thread. Stay on topic! Comment on my question or at least on something that is tangentially related. Please don’t respond to argumentative & personally critical posts such as the last one is.

KW, why didn’t you comment “stay on topic” a few comments above after Elmer’s argumentative and personally critical post regarding Fauci against those of us on here who know otherwise?

And to add: You “liked” a post from Elmer criticizing religion from one side of a political party… so it seems like we are okay to talk about religion also now?

Just trying to know the rules you have set here. Seems hypocritical to me.

Also, please don’t start any arguments with me.

“Rox, you inspire me. So impressed with you.”

Well, I’m a little embarrassed, now.

I’ve been fortunate enough to have a great family around me. My parents were terrific. My father was the kindest, funniest, humblest man that I have ever known. (Nathan’s death was the only time I ever saw my dad break down and really sob cry) I loved my chilhood. My husband is very easy going and has his head on straight. We had two great kids. Our daughter has grown into a lovely young lady. Really, I have so much to be thankful for.

Nathan had a good childhood. He wasn’t sick or suffering. His life was good.

My father always told us to be kind to others as we really don’t know what crosses they are bearing. That has always stuck with me.

Ally-De, I am sorry that you were abused by a priest. I hope you can figure out what you need to do with that.

Thanks to all who have expressed their sorrow to me about my son.

KW, if you were serious about “staying on topic,” you would have nipped it in the bud with Elmer’s comment. Since you didn’t, I can’t take you seriously when you now insist on “staying on topic.” So please don’t start a fake argument with me.

A million years ago I took a philosophy class. I don't even really remember what it was about. What makes the class stand out for me now decades later is how well the professor facilitated the discussions. Class participation was mandatory and he dragged you into the discussion if you were the quiet type.

He excelled at teaching us how to think, not what to think. It was the only philosophy class I ever took, so I don't know if this is just how philosophy IS, or if he was really good. Either way, you never knew what he thought about any given topic - all he focused on was the quality of your proof.

Relating this back to KW's topic, the death discussion could be interesting...or it could be spectacularly awful. It's playing out right here in this thread. It'll all come down to the people who decide to show up that day, what their preconceived notions are of a topic that hits pretty deep, and how well the facilitators can, well....facilitate.

KW - I've landed where FOAS did. If you decide to go I would be interested in hearing about it - but it's not interesting enough to entice me to join you. It has the potential to be way too people-y for me.

Everyone should take a class like that, Ally De. Critical thinking is severely lacking in this country.

I agree with your conclusion, and hope that if KW attends, she shares an update.

@Ally De - I think you’re spot on for what my expectations should be for a Death Cafe gathering. You said ”…the death discussion could be interesting...or it could be spectacularly awful...” . I agree and that is excellent advice. My guess is the size of group should be small and seems like the topic wouldn’t invite a crowd and I think that would stifle conversation too. The other half of the notice that I didn’t post lists time as 10 - 11:30 so it’s not meant to be too long. I agree with your point that I think you were making about the success of a class (meeting) being largely dependent on the skill of the facilitator. For this meeting, my hope (expectation) is that the 2 facilitators, a person with a MDiv and a death doula, don’t speak much about religion or ’sell’ services except to guide conversation.

Seems I’ve gotten an assignment from several of you for a report back on my field trip! 😁 Okay, I’ll do that if I attend. The next meeting is in September so I’ll keep this penciled into my calendar.

@Feathers11 - I did smile at your comment about critical thinking. I don’t disagree with you at all but I do wish more people didn’t take that literally and think it means criticizing.

Honestly I don't spend lots of time thinking about the dying part except to hope that I will not be in a lot of pain/fear, and then I realize that I don't have a lot of control over that, that if a 747 decides to plop on my apartment there's not much I can do about it.

I do have afterlife questions that I occasionally ponder.

Will I see my beloved pets? What about my unbeloved exes? Will groups stay together, can I go see Led Zeppelin after they and I have both rode up this particular stairway to heaven?

Did you know that supposably angels are divided into hierarchies? What does that mean for me? Usually when limited resources and hierarchies are involved I have to buy tickets. Surely after all my efforts (not 100% successful but I do try) to be good I wouldn't need a ticket to see God?

Will I be able to see people who are still alive? Help them?

lucille, if that 747 does hit your apartment, I’d be interested in taking over the lease.

Since the dawn of modern humans over 110 billion people have lived and died since then. Death is universal, essential and a non-negotiable process that allows the rest of nature to exist. The sun and universe will eventually die, and if someone can't understand this and needs a death cafe to learn and cope they learned nothing during living.

There was no chance I was going to respond to this insane nonsense but the houzz clown had to speak of his Dr. Death hero he idolizes so highly, and then demonized the beliefs of others? Rich again clown. Yep, remarks on one thread don't disappear moving to another, and my wish for State AG's to go after Dr. Death are coming true.

Lucille, your questions and statements are a great mix of profound and funny.

I have no answers of course, but sure did smile at your delivery. Great gentle humor on display.

I, too, would be apprehensive about people prostelitizing, but I suspect that this type of discussion would be of no interest to many religious types who are 100% confident that they know the truth about death and dying, OR they would be threatened by anything that could challenge their certainty, so wouldn’t be inclined to show up. Also, those who think anything like this outside of their church is the work of their ”devil” so would stay away. Though, I suppose some could be attracted by the thought of a captive audience to hear their truth.

Good one, outpatientzero! Although, I doubt your wish (and mine also) won't come to full fruition in the end...BUT, at least he's been put out in the public square for all to see his corruptness and should cost him a lot of moulah...although he deserves much worse.

Hates corruption, votes for corruption.

Sorry you are confused.

"my wish for State AG's to go after Dr. Death are coming true. "

Everyone knew that would happen to Fauci (whom I refuse to accept as a killer) - anyone who didn't know it would happen hasn't been paying attention.

People don't like to accept that sometimes bad things are going to happen and there isn't always someone to blame. An international pandemic is one of those times.

He’s an educated man. They hate the educated. 🤷🏼‍♀️ It’s just theatrics and a distraction from the dumpster fire we’ve become. ”Hey, look! A squirrel!”

🐿️

Feathers, which side caters to the least educated? A little hint; free food, free rent, free bus rides, free medical, free, free, free. Need more hints; Abolish ice, police, prisons, boarders, constitution......All directed at the most incredibly simple minded group. Your side can only exist because of these people.

Speaking of uneducated: "Abolish ice, police, prisons, boarders, constitution."

I think boarders are ok, I've had a few college students board with me over the years.

Olychick, that made me laugh!

I’ll bet they paid rent, too.

Roxsolid they did. And they got a college education!

Oly et al., THIS is exactly what I’m talking about. You missed the point about the "educated" Left, and it doesn’t surprise me one bit. Pointing out someone’s spelling is the least of the Left’s problems-it’s much bigger than that!

And this is the perfect time for me to post this from Spencer Pratt about Scott Galloway…after Scott Galloway stupidly supported Mamdani’s pied-a-terre tax, and NOW he’s being doxxed by Mamdani and is not happy about it! This is a perfect example of the stupid-smart person, otherwise known as the "educated" Left.” Just ONE example!

Spencer Pratt said it perfectly:

"Scott Galloway is a perfect example of perhaps the most pernicious people in society: the stupid-smart person.

Educated beyond his intelligence. Smart enough vocabulary to justify his ego and smugness, but too stupid to understand basic realities of communists.

Smart people internalize history and make good decisions. They also know the dangers of hubris. Stupid people don't know enough to even opine on the issues in the first place, so their stupidity isn't a threat. But the stupid-smart person can teach at NYU, he can build a big successful business, he can even give a good TED Talk, but he's not smart enough to see the limits of his own capacities...so he asserts himself in society with an outsized level of confidence. Sadly, he's articulate enough to fool lots of people into elevating his stupid ideas...and that's the problem.

People listen to the stupid-smart guys, like him. Then they're genuinely baffled when there's a Kalashnikov pointed at their head as they're staring at a cinder block wall behind the politburo headquarters. In a functional society, this clown would be a pariah. I have precisely zero empathy for his plight in NYC. He endorsed it. Now he can eat it, good and hard."

It must be quite a fatiguing burden to get so worked up about everything and anything that happens every day. Especially extending daily outrage to events and people with no effect whatever on your life or your community.

The same comment applies to others too, of other political persuasions.

Using Scott Galloway to make any point about the Left is weak. Even I think he’s a pompous arse.

The Left is full of Scott Galloways-that’s the entire point. The classic stupid-smart person. Pompous arse fits the bill perfectly. The Right (and pretty much everyone else with common sense) sees right through it all. No one can stand how smug, self-righteous, and insufferably superior the Left constantly acts. And in the end they prove they’re not, time after time-and it’s just hilarious!

the Left

I don't think 'The Left' is a cohesive unified group any more than 'The Right' is, so describing all of 'The Left' as alike doesn't seem like you are being accurate. Or even trying to be accurate.

Good old death, in the long run it beats living forever. Would anyone here want to live forever? Even if you were on hold at age 30 with good health? Of course, accidents do happen.

vgkg, my friends and I say almost every day how glad we are that we are old and won't have to live through carp like this for decades. Putting any person in one camp or another is wrong. People are complex. It's not a one issue situation. Who would want that and especially who would want that for decades.

But since I don't have decades, I do resent spending these years in a constant state of chaos and hatred and cruelty. I wish I could shut it all out but I cannot.

This is such a wonderful discussion! My husband died suddenly in an unwitnessed skiing accident about 15 years ago. Our kids were 14 and 19. Obviously it was tragic, horrible, terrible… but at the same time we were comforted that he died with his boots on, doing his very favorite thing in the world. His death made me appreciate the gift of life all the more. I should also add that he had a Tibetan Buddhist practice and had for years studied and thought a great deal about the Buddhist view of death. (I don’t think he had a premonition of dying young, because he absolutely would have shared it) What I want to share here is that within a week of his death both my daughter and I had very similar dreams, in which we each went into the kitchen (he was the head chef of our family and loved cooking) and there he was. In my dream, he turned to me with a huge smile on his face as he said in delight, “It’s EXACTLY how I thought it would be!” And in my daughter’s dream he told her, with great enthusiasm and excitement, “It’s SO GREAT, Olivia! It’s SO GREAT!” I was and am forever grateful for his report from the Great Beyond. It really helped me to accept it and come to peace with it.

@chinacatpeekin Thank you for sharing your very personal and very positive experience with all of us.

chinacatpeekin, what a wonderful gift he gave you and your daughter. It gives me chills to hear it and strengthens my beliefs as well. Thank you.

Lucille, your post really made me chuckle! Specifically this: "

I do have afterlife questions that I occasionally ponder.

Will I see my beloved pets? What about my unbeloved exes? Will groups stay together, can I go see Led Zeppelin after they and I have both rode up this particular stairway to heaven?

Did you know that supposedly angels are divided into hierarchies? What does that mean for me? Usually when limited resources and hierarchies are involved I have to buy tickets. Surely after all my efforts (not 100% successful but I do try) to be good I wouldn't need a ticket to see God?

Will I be able to see people who are still alive? Help them?'

I do suffer from 'over-peopling stress' like Ally De mentioned, but I might make an exception for one of these group discussions. I seen loved ones die kicking and screaming with fear and others totally at peace and passing quietly and calmly. I'd like to think that I'd be at peace when it's my time to go.

@chinacatpeekin: I had two brothers suddenly die three months apart several years ago. I had a similar experience during the funeral Mass for one. I just knew I would see them again, and all would be fine. The feeling has since stayed with me through a few deaths.