It must be quite a fatiguing burden to get so worked up about everything and anything that happens every day. Especially extending daily outrage to events and people with no effect whatever on your life or your community.

The same comment applies to others too, of other political persuasions.

Using Scott Galloway to make any point about the Left is weak. Even I think he’s a pompous arse.

the Left

I don't think 'The Left' is a cohesive unified group any more than 'The Right' is, so describing all of 'The Left' as alike doesn't seem like you are being accurate. Or even trying to be accurate.

Good old death, in the long run it beats living forever. Would anyone here want to live forever? Even if you were on hold at age 30 with good health? Of course, accidents do happen.

vgkg, my friends and I say almost every day how glad we are that we are old and won't have to live through carp like this for decades. Putting any person in one camp or another is wrong. People are complex. It's not a one issue situation. Who would want that and especially who would want that for decades.

But since I don't have decades, I do resent spending these years in a constant state of chaos and hatred and cruelty. I wish I could shut it all out but I cannot.

This is such a wonderful discussion! My husband died suddenly in an unwitnessed skiing accident about 15 years ago. Our kids were 14 and 19. Obviously it was tragic, horrible, terrible… but at the same time we were comforted that he died with his boots on, doing his very favorite thing in the world. His death made me appreciate the gift of life all the more. I should also add that he had a Tibetan Buddhist practice and had for years studied and thought a great deal about the Buddhist view of death. (I don’t think he had a premonition of dying young, because he absolutely would have shared it) What I want to share here is that within a week of his death both my daughter and I had very similar dreams, in which we each went into the kitchen (he was the head chef of our family and loved cooking) and there he was. In my dream, he turned to me with a huge smile on his face as he said in delight, “It’s EXACTLY how I thought it would be!” And in my daughter’s dream he told her, with great enthusiasm and excitement, “It’s SO GREAT, Olivia! It’s SO GREAT!” I was and am forever grateful for his report from the Great Beyond. It really helped me to accept it and come to peace with it.

@chinacatpeekin Thank you for sharing your very personal and very positive experience with all of us.

chinacatpeekin, what a wonderful gift he gave you and your daughter. It gives me chills to hear it and strengthens my beliefs as well. Thank you.

Lucille, your post really made me chuckle! Specifically this: "

I do have afterlife questions that I occasionally ponder.

Will I see my beloved pets? What about my unbeloved exes? Will groups stay together, can I go see Led Zeppelin after they and I have both rode up this particular stairway to heaven?

Did you know that supposedly angels are divided into hierarchies? What does that mean for me? Usually when limited resources and hierarchies are involved I have to buy tickets. Surely after all my efforts (not 100% successful but I do try) to be good I wouldn't need a ticket to see God?

Will I be able to see people who are still alive? Help them?'

I do suffer from 'over-peopling stress' like Ally De mentioned, but I might make an exception for one of these group discussions. I seen loved ones die kicking and screaming with fear and others totally at peace and passing quietly and calmly. I'd like to think that I'd be at peace when it's my time to go.

@chinacatpeekin: I had two brothers suddenly die three months apart several years ago. I had a similar experience during the funeral Mass for one. I just knew I would see them again, and all would be fine. The feeling has since stayed with me through a few deaths.

chinacat: That was such a wonderful story to relate. It must have given you and your kids so much peace.

I have no idea who galloway or pratt are, but I will disagree with this: "Stupid people don't know enough to even opine on the issues in the first place, so their stupidity isn't a threat."

Stupid people vote and that has led us to where we are.

To bring it back to the OP, I am truly glad that I am in the denouement of my lifespan as I don't want to be around to see the struggles ahead for the next 4 decades to rebuild all that has been destroyed in these few short years...or what the future looks like for us and the world if we don't rebuild but continue down this road where a small handful benefit bigly and the rest of the nation loses. I look at children and fear they will never enjoy life as we have as a thriving middle class, in an environment that supports human life.

”Stupid people vote and that has led us to where we are.”

Annie, I’m surprised you would make a statement like that! Do smart people not vote? They’re not so smart if they don’t.

Isn’t every American entitled to a vote?

I do agree with the rest of your statement, though.

That is gorgeous, @chinacatpeekin.

I’m interested in the essence of this discussion as I’m feeling that my MIL has made all the decisions leading to the type of death none of us want.

Determined to live in a state far away from her 2 sons, refused medical care following a head injury, refused PT following a femur break, never made friends in either of the care communities she’s lived in, angry, combative, and alone as she’s in the late stages now--dementia, pneumonia, mrsa, heart problems, and alienated from friends and 1 child.

The recipe for the saddest death. I’d like to plan differently.

@lisaam - I think one of my bjggest takeaways from watching my parents and my inlaws age and die is to end up at a realistic place to be, before I no longer have the energy to make a change. It actually hasn’t been awful with either, but it’s been less than ideal. My mom is 96, still living alone in a house that’s a ranch built into a hill so while living itself is one level, getting to that level is a 13 step climb. Who knows what will happen when she can’t make that. My sister tried for years to get her to move closer to her, whether move in with her or buy her a small, practical house. I’m heading out there, too, so it would be beneficial all around. Nope, not leaving her house. If you ask her her plan it’s to die in her sleep, the sooner the better. Thus far she’s not been able to execute that plan. If she doesn’t figure it out, we’re all headed for misery!

FOAS, my MIL refused to leave her house. She lived on a farm. She was deaf and had only one hand. We didn’t worry about the what ifs. She’d have been truly miserable any place else.

She was found dead one morning, lying on her chesterfield. She had set out an outfit that we believe she wanted to be buried in.

We don’t have children and while I logically get that I’m not in charge, I still expect to outlive my husband. Without someone one to tug on my sleeve and say ’now is the time to change’, I hope that I will know. And mostly I pray (not sure to whom) to be a content, hopeful person as my own DM is and not anxious and angry.

roxsolid, in this case I believe Annie is saying that the stupid people outvoted the smart people.

Of course it all depends on who decides to vote at all. I wish it was mandatory but I can see why it is not. Not voting is a choice also.

Food, you have my sympathies. My father was the last one living in their home, and I had similar challenges. It is hard, at least for me, to find the balance to the right of self determination vs the frigging realities they refuse to accept. I was an only child so it all fell to me and he lived an hour away. Good times.

He started sliding into dementia and I literally forced him to accept home health care and various county services. Forced! Told him people would be coming daily and I didn't care what he thought about it. Got outside eyes on him every day, which was so helpful in so many ways.

He ended up going to the hospital for an illness....and I told him he had to go to rehab for "awhile" to recover. Found him a really nice assisted living place and that was that. He adjusted just fine.

The only downside is that at least 2 aides stole from him. This is a reputable agency too. Both were fired by the agency, but it makes one feel icky, and very angry.

Ally De, I'm sorry that happened to your father but it is a reality in even the best of those places. I worked for a man that owned 6 nursing homes and then experienced again with an elderly friend that had no family. These places are funded by private money and Medicare and Medicaid and the government has been cutting those funds for a long time to where it is difficult to get enough help and quality help. Clothes go to the laundry never to return, even with name tags in them. The better places do have nice activities for the people that want to participate but many do not care to do that so are mostly isolated except for mealtimes and that is if they come to the dining room. It's a tough existence made harder if you don't have family nearby or just caring enough to visit often. Of course a good attitude goes a long way to making it a decent existence but if there are lots of medical issues, it's easy to see how one could just want to give up.

George Carlin said ” “Never underestimate the power of stupid people in a large group.”

Yes, murraysmom, one group outvoted the other. And I’m sure that there is an argument about which ”side” are the stupid ones.

I think that assigning the term stupid to anybody does not help. It just can’t. ☹️

I think Ally De's comments above are what I fear about death. Death itself doesn't scare me. I accepted long ago that we do not know what happens to us after we die, and there was no sense in fretting over it. But when I die is a concern. I have all my affairs in order, should I die tomorrow. But all factors considered, I'm likely to live into my 90s. Of course I want to live independently as long as possible, but I also don't want my kids worrying about me. My mother is 83, is still in good health, and lives alone. Personally, I believe living alone is doing her mental health more harm than good. But I also don't think she needs assisted living. I think we need better choices and more options for that final stretch of life.

@Feathers11 You raise points I’ve thought about and some that also apply to me. Don’t fret about what will happen after death - check. All affairs in order - check. Longevity in family so chances are will live long - check. Want to live independently - check. Belief that spending too much time alone isn’t good for our mental health - check.

I don’t have kids so the option of getting any help from that avenue is out. I agree with your point that we need more options for the final path of life. It’s all well & good to be able to live independently but odds are driving days will / should end & how does one easily get out and about for social interaction? That is a huge limiting factor to aging in place and living alone. I know - Uber, Lyft, County transit etc etc but those options aren’t always either great or available for socializing. Might work for most medical appointment transit & shopping usually has a delivery option but socializing transportation is just a different issue IMO.

Having a strong network of friends helps.

Ally, your story sounds like mine. I am an only child too, and my mother lived in the house they built in 1955, 25 years after my father died at 71. I must say she did well for a long time. She drove her car and volunteered at her church and had a list of local men who were her go tos for plumbing, car trouble, etc. It's a small town, and she ate out with friends a few times a week and mowed her own yard. Then she began forgetting things like doctor appointments and would pay her TV guide but not her electric bill. So I had to be the bad guy and tell her she needed to sell the house they built from scratch and car and move down close to me. She fought tooth and nail, but we prevailed and set her up in a lovely assisted living with a creek outside her balcony two miles from my house. She hated it, and I'd go over every day to check up on things. Money was stolen by cleaning staff, so I left none with her. Days before she died, she was still doing her daily walks, loops around the complex, and then the hospital stay, where she never returned. It's tough being an only child and having to do it on your own.

" Personally, I believe living alone is doing her mental health more harm than good. But I also don't think she needs assisted living. "

That middle time requires active effort to overcome social isolation. Assisted living isn't appropriate - since no assistance is required - but even living in a seniors community (houses or apartments) that provides social interaction won't help unless a person makes a decided effort to take advantage of the social interactions available.

Joining card games or exercise at the seniors' center, or book clubs or gardening clubs at the library are ways that can get a person out and around other people. Volunteering can help set a schedule and make sure a person spends a little time with other people. Things like that are always available to match one's interest and physical abilities, but you have to actively go looking for them. Now that I've retired, I'm making specific efforts to do that for myself, even though I'm still in my 60s.

Our local death cafés are run by the local hospice and take place in a park, the local library or an arts centre. They are definitely not religious or commercial. They are described as free community gatherings where people come together over tea and cake to talk about mortality in a relaxed, respectful space. I have no interest in going to a session but they seem perfectly harmless and very possibly helpful to some people.

Lily - yep, very similar story. It is very hard, especially when you know it is the right thing to do but your parent disagrees. Broke my freaking heart when he would think I was being mean.

It is hard to do the right things sometimes. But bless you for showing up and caring. I always told myself I have to be able to look at myself in the mirror, and be ok with how I handled it long after he was gone. And I am. I did right by him, though he never understood that. I always felt like telling him, do you know how much cheaper it would be if I just let you waste away alone in that house, like you think you want?! But instead you made friends and ate great food, went on outings, and had 24/7 help/supervision. So trust me, I am doing the best I know how for you....

" Our local death cafés are run by the local hospice.......They are definitely not ......commercial. "

Perhaps that the underlying financing and entities providing hospice-type services differs between the US and the UK. The people who I've met who are involved with hospice services impressed me as being quite special and dedicated.

That notwithstanding, floral, I can't imagine that an individual hospice site or service organization in a particular place will have the same prospects of continuing in existence if its client/patient headcount is dwindling, compared to one that is brimming with business. If so, doing public outreach of any kind to spread awareness and appreciation for its services is likely to lead to more future "business" and in that sense, IS commercially motivated. That's far from being a criticism. Organizations that go out of existence because of a lack of attention to or lack of success with managing their affairs (like bringing in new "business") cease providing the services previously offered.

@lily316 & @Ally De I wanted to say that having siblings doesn’t guarantee that one sibling in a multi sibling family won’t be the sole sibling managing a parent’s care as though s/he is an only child even if / when the remaining siblings are in favor of everything being done for the parent. I know this from personal experience. I knew how very fortunate I was that after my dad died, my mother wanted to move closer to me but not with me. She wanted to live in an independent senior community that had the option of moving up to assisted living or memory care. She made friends and participated in the social activities until her death at 92. She never needed assisted living since she was very mobile & I was close enough to manage meds and take her to medical appointments but I knew the time was coming that she’d need memory care if she became a wander risk. I understand that sometimes a parent has no other option but to move in with a child but IMO that’s not always good. It makes the child the sole provider of social activities. A senior community provides lots of socialization opportunities if a person will participate.

@murraysmom Zone 6a OH I agree that having a strong network of friends helps. The challenge comes when a person outlives all of their friends & / or none of them can drive anymore.

@floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK - Thank you for your description of the death cafes you know about.

KW - that makes sense and I agree. There were honestly times I was glad to be an only child, because no one was second guessing or arguing about anything I did. (Well. Except for my dad, of course.) But it was awfully lonely, figuring it out all alone too. You win some, you lose some.

Feathers, you may want to ask your local Office for the Aging if they have any suggestions for your situation. Mine had a list of people who were basically paid friends. 😆 They were cheaper than home health care, and did no personal care or anything like that. But they were dependable and I had 2 different ones coming in for 2 hours at a time several times a week. My dad liked playing cards, and singing, and telling stories.

He sort of resented them at first, but they won him over and he looked forward to their visits. They'd get him singing, and telling stories - and he would smile telling me about their visits. Best money spent.

Hospices here are non profit, usually registered charities, and they care for patients without charge. Death cafés are offered as part of their services. They are not run to increase 'business'.

Don't want to derail, but I do need to clarify this:

"Stupid people don't know enough to even opine on the issues in the first place, so their stupidity isn't a threat."

"Stupid people vote and that has led us to where we are."

Roxsolid, my statement was only in context to the one preceding it. I was merely making the point that, unlike the statement made, stupid people are not inconsequential. They have the power to vote and can thus have an impact. There's a reason Thomas Jefferson said this: "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."

We can take this convo to a new thread if you wish so we don't derail this one any further.

Ally De, I think I really do understand the differences in the various situations for the child being the caregiver of the parent(s). There’s just not an easy solution. Being the only child and also being either loving enough or responsible enough to step up and care for their parent can be extremely challenging in many ways. In a family with multiple kids and being the sole kid to take on the caregiving role can create resentment from the caregiver about their siblings for either doing nothing or for not doing ’enough’ even when they’re doing something. American culture doesn’t support care for elders as some other cultures do and maybe that’s our loss. We’ve also become a much more mobile society and it seems the exception that kids live near their parents when they’re adults. Add to those points that US birth rate is declining. There will be many more elders with no children to even think about asking for assistance! Several of us in this thread have already said we’re in that category. But, with this topic I digress from my own thread here. This might be a topic for another thread ”Childless? What are your plans for getting any caregiving assistance you may need in your later years?” 🤷🏻‍♀️

Thank you for the clarification, Annie.

Yes, this is a great thread, and an important topic.

Again, sorry KW.

roxsolid and Annie - no need to apologize for side convos. I’d extend that same to everyone else posting on this thread. Interesting and varied conversations make the best parties, right? The only posts I don’t welcome are those with argumentative or accusatory tones towards others. Personal agendas are not welcome either.

roxsolid, thanks for saying this is a good topic. I thought awhile before posting because I wasn’t sure how it would be received. I decided it was meaty enough to generate some interest and really was curious about what others think of these death cafe meetings. I’d never heard of them and couldn’t decide if I felt ”Yikes!” or if it really piqued my curiousity.

" ”Childless? What are your plans for getting any caregiving assistance you may need in your later years?” "

You know how the saying goes: Men plan; God laughs.

In the back of my mind would be, when alone, to go to a continuing care facility...there's one nearby that is highly rated, though $$$. But what else is my money for if not to care for me in my dotage?

Otherwise, I'd be dead on the floor, the cats have eaten me and no one will know until they realize the mailbox is overstuffed and no one is getting it anymore. Rather ignominious and something I'd prefer to avoid (the smell alone!!) ...though moving away from here will be very, very hard as this is home since I was a wee one.

someone once said "the downside of living a very long life....is that there is no one left to attend your funeral."

My mom came to live with me after our dad died. I was the "logical" one because I was single and had a spare bedroom that we furnished with my mom's own furniture. My oldest sister had spent many years taking care of both mom and dad, taking them to doctor appointments, church, etc. I was fine with having her come live with me. She was hesitant because she had a cat. I assured her that the cat was welcome to come too. I only had my dog, Murray, at that time and I was still working. So she stayed home with the cat and dog for company and she (89) was fine to be home alone. We did go to different places now and then as entertainment for her. She loved having the animals and she could watch her shows and fix her own lunch so it worked out very well. She was here for two years. The final year she was diagnosed with lung cancer and decided one day that she wanted to go into the nursing home, which was less than 10 minutes from my house. So we got her in and settled and within the week she passed away. I was with her during her passing. She didn't drive and could not have remained in their house alone. It all worked out and I was happy to be able to give that to her. I know it doesn't work for most people, but it did for us and everyone was happy that we could do that for her.

Oh and hobbitmom, your comment made me remember something. While she was with me, a friend of hers passed away and I asked did she want to go to the funeral. She did. So we went. We walked up to the casket and she looked at her friend and then at me and said that she was now the last of her friends and it made her sad. My mom was 91 when she died.

Hobbitmom, one of the saddest funerals I ever attended was of my 97 year old uncle. He was once very active in his community, in many civic organizations, volunteered all over the county, they used to have summer parties at their house with 100 people.

Calling hours were mostly the family standing around, and the funeral itself had maybe 30 people scattered throughout the church. I was stunned, I expected it to be packed!

And then I started thinking of those parties, and realized most people were now dead. All of his siblings were dead. All of his friends....also dead. The church had a few of us who were the younger generation behind his, and a few grandchildren. That was it. All of his contemporaries were already dead.

It hit me hard. One of those sobering life moments.

Then again, there's the story of the old lady in the nursing home who was so mean and crabby all the time...never happy....never pleasant to be around. Then she turned 100 and they had a party to celebrate. After that, she became cheerful and upbeat. The change was so remarkable, someone finally asked her why she's suddenly so happy when before her birthday she was so crabby. She replied, "No more peer pressure!"

My friend's mom lived to be 106. She came to this country from Germany. She and her husband were my mom and dad's best friends. In fact, they came to see my mom in the nursing home the day she died. It was like any other Sunday morning for them. She certainly outlived them all. She was in a nursing home for quite a few years. My friend's older sister lived nearby and went to see her every day. In her last years, she reverted to speaking German and she loved to sing.

My husband had an uncle that got up one morning, drove his wife and himself to a Sunday morning breakfast in a town about 50 kms. away, came home that afternoon to go to a curling bonspiel that he was participating in. Just before he went out the door, he went to use the bathroom. His wife heard a loud thud. He had had a heart attack and died. He was 96 years old..

Here’s a cute little story joke.

While walking along the sidewalk in front of his church, a minister heard the intoning of a prayer that nearly made his collar wilt. Apparently, his 5-year-old son and his playmates had found a dead robin. Feeling that proper burial should be performed, they had secured a small box and cottonwool, then dug a hole and made ready for the disposal of the deceased.

The minister's son was chosen to say the appropriate prayers and with sonorous dignity intoned his version of what he thought his father always said: 'Glory be unto the Faaather, and unto the Sonnn, and into the hole he goooes.'

KW, thank you for both starting this thread, and going along with its evolution into several different directions at once. The conversation and side chats have been such a great mix of fun and thoughtful. It has been like a great party where one gets to wander around, dropping in on the interesting conversations.

It is threads like this that keep me coming here. This may sound dorky, but I mean it when I say thank you to everyone for this one.

I’m happy to hear many enjoyed this topic since it had the potential of being too heavy. It strikes me that this thread has become a virtual Death Cafe! I am now more inclined to attend the local September meeting. I can’t imagine the conversation being as interesting as this thread has been but I will let you know.

" Hospices here are non profit, usually registered charities, and they care for patients without charge. Death cafés are offered as part of their services. They are not run to increase 'business'. "

floral, I'm not sure you're understanding my comments.

In the US, "Non-profit" means an entity that does not operate to provide gains for owners (they usually have none) but rather one that works to improve public or community welfare. Hospitals are typically non-profit organizations, as are hospices and many other orgs in the health care field (excluding many types of doctor-owned operations). The difference in common usage between what's a charity and what's a non-profit is irrelvent, the underlying legal definitions are this domain. Charities that comply with legal and tax requirements are almost always classified as a "non-profit" under the law while there are many non-profit orgs that aren't "charities". Hospice services are also provided here by the universal medical coverage available to seniors, Medicare. I suspect there are many similarities and parallels between the US and the UK.

I was on the Board of Directors of four different "non-profit" orgs over the years (three of which were charities with mandates to improve general public welfare in certain areas) and I can tell you with certainty that managing operations in a "business-like" manner is essential to continued successful existence. An excess of receipts over expenses can be used to expand operations or to provide more money to underlying organizations they support, which themselves need to be mindful of being attentive to raising money. Raising more revenue allows the provision of more services.

A well run charity (or non-profit) never takes its eye off of the ball of garnering more support (ie, money) and increasing revenues in whatever means are available to them. For services that are sponsored by government subsidies on a per capita basis, serving more individuals is one such way. All well run orgs will have an executive position with a title like "Director of Development" or "Resource Manager" or similar. The roles of these departments are to be sure that the organization is active and creative in various ways that will increase monetary support.