coincidentally, I just saw this video of Alysa speaking about her family. Sorry I could only find it on Facebook....but I think everyone can see it. https://www.facebook.com/reel/729518033458863

^^^ from the horse’s mouth.

Children have a RIGHT to their biological parents. Hard Stop.

That is not universally true in law, especially in this country where the legal system prioritizes the best interests of the child, not biology alone. Not all parents are good parents. If a biological parent is abusive, neglectful, unsafe, or unable to care for a child, courts can remove the child. In the case of Alysa, she was intentionally conceived through legal reproductive technology. The egg donor and surrogate participated voluntarily. There was no custody removal so this is not a case of children being “ripped”from a mother. It was a consensual assisted reproduction arrangement.

let me get this straight. instead of its intended purpose, that being blessing a family with a baby to love and cherish, children created through surrogacy should be forced upon the biological mother who, quite obviously, had zero intentions of keeping and raising a child?

have you never seen even one single news story about an abused baby/child whose mother never wanted it? go watch "the trials of gabriel fernandez" and maybe you could get some insight. 🙄

here, i'll make it easy for you...

https://www.netflix.com/mx-en/title/80220207

Amazing odds her father and she both overcame. Great backstory!

The family you choose is always a billion times better than one that is done out of obligations. Don't get me wrong. My family is both biological and those I have chosen to participate in my inner circle, a hybrid-my chosen family. Anyone saying that someone is required to bring a child (antiabortionists) into this world, always say, put the unwanted child up for adoption. So just how "real" is an adopted parent then? Why not now? Of course, these are the same folks who want the death penalty for women who have abortions. How is that prolife? They see no hypocrisy in themselves

I’m on the fence about surrogacy in general. Including the very practical idea that you really don’t have control or full information over the gestation.

Surrogacy can’t be cheap, and raising a family certainly isn’t, and guiding a talent of any kind is very expensive. I wonder what he does for a living?

He is an attorney, https://www.today.com/parents/alysa-liu-parents-dad-arthur-liu-rcna259917

Her father is a lawyer.

I have a friend who had a child via surrogacy with an anonymous sperm donor. The child is adored and loved, and the surrogate is still in contact with the family.

Bpath, it says lawyer in the original post.

I am still confused. Is Arcy saying Alysa was miss placed in the Olympics (scored higher?) than she should have been, due to empathy (?) about.....I don't know, whatever has Arcy all twitterpated? Or is she thinking of the wrong skater and believes Alysa missed placing at all? Or is she saying this semi-delusional "empathy" that she's conjured up herself is misplaced?

Spelling. Sometimes it matters. 😄 It honestly doesn't make sense either way though.

Anytime I need a smile, I watch that gold medal routine. She radiated joy. THAT is worth its weight in gold, to me.

No parent has full control over gestation, even in traditional pregnancy. Biology, complications, and unknowns are always present. Surrogacy involves legal agreements, medical oversight, and informed consent to manage risks, but it can’t eliminate uncertainty, just like any pregnancy. In the end, as in adoption it’s acceptance and unconditional love.

The "back story" on Elton John and his husband David Furnish is one of the most touching love stories I have ever read. They used the same surrogate for both of their sons, and requested that which ever sperm was used remained unknown. They are 15 and 13 now, and look like fine boys.

That is a great back story that I had no idea about. How awful for people to be so judgemental. Clearly this is a man that wanted a family and chose a way to get there that is legal and shouldn't be faulted.

Palisades, I think you really put it in a way that cannot be misconstrued. These children were clearly wanted, loved and have had a good life. They are lucky and it sounds like they know it.

We all are fortunate to live in a time when there are options and different ways to build a family.

Thanks, eld, for an uplifting story for today!!

Extremely loved and provided for children. What on god's earth is there to be judgmental about? Here's to the days when we let political refugees into this country, allowed them to flourish, create a wonderful family, and provide the world with the joy of their offspring!

I loved her skating! Her story is interesting. I like her coming back on her own terms. It’s all positive in my eyes.

"The construction of your post is....let's call it confusing."

Surprised she hasn't come back and deleted her post. Her normal MO.

I appreciated the, heartwarming, back story!

If your perspective is Biblically based, Jesus was the result of a surrogacy, was raised by a stepfather, and allegedly turned out fine.

Oly, you’re raising valid concerns about exploitation, especially in cross-border arrangements involving low-income countries with weak regulations. Also the pandemic border closures caused temporary delays in the handover of babies, exposing weaknesses in international surrogacy arrangements. However, this does not prove that surrogacy itself is inherently abusive; rather, it shows how fragile cross-border systems can be.

On the other hand, as in the case of Liu’s children, in highly regulated systems such as those in North America and the UK, safeguards and oversight mechanisms are in place to protect the integrity of surrogacy arrangements. IMO medical advancements in surrogacy is a double-edged sword: while they may contribute to exploitation and commodification without strong regulations, they also promote reproductive freedom, autonomy, and the ability to form a family. Surely the ethics of this issue remain highly contested.

Unless the parties involved are doing it altruistically or illegally, as far as regulations go at the state level, courts decide how parentage should be established; surrogates must consent; contracts reviewed by lawyers; the intended parents on the contracts become legally responsible for the child’s safety. BUT each state regulations vary, and there no central federal agency to oversee the process.

New York regulations

Wait ... you can tag something you don't like, and it gets removed? How do you do that?

I think Elmer's comments have been removed at least twice.

Anyway… Alysa Liu!

Anyway… Alysa Liu!

"genetic bewilderment"

Yes, I'm sure you do wonder. But nothing says bewildered, more than an accomplished champion! ABSOLUTE SARCASM

Wonder no more, and stop trying to read her mind because she seems well-adjusted. Enough to realize that she needed to leave the sport and came back when she still loved it. Your post leaves me wondering more your motivation than her actions do.

Thank you Feather!.

What a great story!

Thank you for the photo reminder Feathers. She radiated joy through the entire routine. Just looking at the photos makes me smile, and watching the entire routine is sunshine for my soul.

She’s a ray of sunshine on and off the ice.

It was such a beautiful routine, truly that ray of sunshine.

The term free spirit was made for her on the ice. I love her hair colors and how she stuck out her tongue too. She seems incredibly young and mature at the same time.

I watched her skate the other day. Watching her made me cry. It made me cry because I realized after a very dark and disturbing year that there is some good and joy in the world. I don't know if I'll feel that way again.

Kathgarden, here is hoping you certainly do. (Hugs))

Kathsgarden - totally understand. I think that is why it hit me so strongly too.

Have faith. I am not knocking you - I get overcome on occasion too. But for some reason, I am starting to see tiny flickers of hope. Time will tell. Please hang in there.

Always lovely hearing from you Ollie. Your kindness and uplifting spirit is duly noted.

One of the most important things we can do is help others. If you see someone who is hurting, and you don't want to help, then saying nothing is the most kind thing you have to offer.

There it is again. "Europe". Perhaps you're not aware of how ignorant it is to lump 44 sovereign nations under a single label as if we are an amorphous blob.

And btw the 'man in a dress' was simply part of the opening show themed 'just be you'. Sorry if that's a sentiment you find challenging.

Denmark has seen the light with new laws so I don't see all countries in Europe as an amorphous blob.

My hats off to you ladies for finding a reason to stand up and applaud Alysa Liu! This is what America Loving American's do, but wished your selected and elected leaders would have stood the other night with an applaud. I'd prefer not to comment how shallow those people really are.

Lol was that the first SOTU you’ve ever watched?!?

Nice to come back to this thread and see (upthread) more love for Alysa Lui. I love her and Ilia Malinin so much - my fantasy is that they fall in love and raise a couple of little exceptional ice skaters, and wonderful humans.

@rob333 (zone 7b) I'm confused by your response to my post about surrogacy, and my mention of "genetic bewildermant" It is something regarding surrogacy that has concerned me, not specific to Alysa, but in general. It looks like my post was removed because someone didn't like it? But here is some info about genetic bewilderment....there are lots and lots of articles about it and specific to surrogacy, tho that procedure wasn't (widely) being used when the term was coined; here is one written by a fertility specialist specific to egg donor pregnancies:

Genetic (genealogical) bewilderment.

@Elmer J Fudd, I don't know why my focus on and advocacy for safety for women and children causes you so much distress that you need to launch some personal attacks against me. If you can't control the urge to attack me and my perspective, then just don't read what I write. I devoted a career and lifetime advocating against violence against women and children, your distress about that isn't going to affect me one bit.

And thanks to the others who tried to help me remove the posts with those attacks via flagging....I also finally gave up....bullying behavior is nothing if not persistent.

I wondered where the genetic bewilderment comment came from. I am still missing the back story (which is the story of my life here!😄), but the concept is personal to me, as an adoptee. I am all for talking about these things. We have come a long way from when I was growing up and trying to make sense of it all. It is a real thing, and a difficult thing to find one's way through. However, life is full of challenges, you know? The question is whether the juice is worth the squeeze. My general belief is that it is. However this is a deeply personal, YMMV thing.

Anyway, I will stop here as I don't want to drag this off topic - as I am known to do. LOL. Happy to continue in a separate thread or privately if anyone wants.

Ally De yes your topic would make for an excellent discussion.

A counterargument to the term genealogical bewilderment is that studies from institutions such as the University of Cambridge - notably by Susan Golombok - have found that children born through assisted reproduction, including surrogacy, generally show no greater psychological adjustment problems than their naturally conceived peers, particularly in families that are open and supportive. Identity is multifactorial, and risks increase primarily when information is hidden or when a child feels deceived. The Liu family has done a great job raising their children.

On the other hand, I’ve seen many estrangements between biological parents and their children for all kinds of reasons.

A University of Cambridge Study

Interesting article, @palisades_, but I doubt 2 year olds would understand genetic confusion. Almost all children attach to their caregivers at that age.

I agree Oly. With proper upbringing, nurturing environment like those, the children would have better than average chance to grow up into adulthood just fine. Concurrently, Dr. Jhutty offers these suggestions in her write up:

“So how can you instill a sense of belonging, confidence, and trust and avoid this genealogical bewilderment? Maintain open, honest, and age-appropriate communication with your child about their biological origins. Encourage questions and provide clear, consistent answers. But in order to be able to do that, educate yourself – and others – about the unique dynamics of your family structure. Build a strong support system. This can include extended family, friends, support groups, and community resources that understand and support your family structure. Consider family therapy or counseling to address any challenges or conflicts that arise. Most importantly, teach your child to be proud of their unique family structure and heritage, fostering a positive self-identity. At the end of the day, you know what’s best because after all, this is your child.”

Lot more work involved there than it would be with a typical biological family - but we shall overcome the odds, and the bullies.

What makes you wonder about bewilderment, Oly? What is your motivation to bring it up? I was pretty sure my post was direct. How does anything she does reflect this issue?

P.S. your post was removed? When? I wouldn't have bothered to answer if it'd been gone. Strange! And you I know, on the backside, we agree on most things, so you know it wasn't me.

I think her advice is great - I remember reading a book MANY years ago called "Lethal Secrets" about families where donor sperm was used but kept very secret from everyone, especially the children conceived as a result. It wasn't using donor sperm that caused the problems, it was the keeping of the secret and the children perceiving that something was 'off' in their families. Many didn't discover their origins until much later in life and felt very betrayed by their families. Same with kids who were never told they were adopted (tho I think that is much rarer these days).

not me! I’m ignoring you!

@rob333 (zone 7b) As I said, I only mentioned it because the conversation turned to surrogacy and it’s one of my concerns about whether it’s an issue for people conceived that way. I, in no way, implied that I was saying that specifically about Alysa, just in general, I wonder about it. edited to complete my thought: If someone is not genetically related to the surrogate, is she my mother? If the egg donor is anonymous is she my mother? Do I get any if my traits from her? Chances are slim that I could ever even meet either of them. If there is a woman who raised me, but is not related to me genetically, is she my mother? Do I have 3 mothers? Who do I look like, what is our history? These are just some if the things I wonder if they are hard for surrogate born children, but she made it clear that it’s not a concern for her.

" not me! I’m ignoring you! "

Then I'll apologize and retract the comment.

Let me ask this - is it the case that you've NEVER earmarked one of my comments? Or asked another person to do so?

I will withdraw my ignoring you temporarily to answer your civilly asked questions.

Why, when I write what my beliefs are, do you make the leap to me "imposing" those views on others? I made no statements about trying to stop surrogacy, just that I have some qualms about it as a procedure I don't think we've ethically vetted yet. One example I gave was the potential exploitation of poor women, esp those overseas where our laws have no power to protect the vulnerable. I have the same concerns about organ transplants...desperately poor people selling body parts, or even surrogates being trafficked, or people being killed and organs harvested for $.

I don't mind posting my views/concerns even tho they may be unpopular, because if even one person starts to question things they never thought about, it's worth it. That is NOT imposing my views.

I can assure you I have only ever flagged any comments when they rise to the level of personal attacks, on me or others. Not just yours, though yours seem to rise to that level most frequently. I have ignored many, just because it's so tiresome. I never have flagged anyone's comment just because I don't agree with their viewpoint -unless they are targeting someone. There are others here who don't support bullying or abuse and they also flag, I assume, because many posts disappear that I haven't touched. I am an infrequent flagger.

So, if you stop with the personal attacks, maybe your posts won't get flagged. They won't be flagged by me because I think it's important for people to see exactly who you are. And, no, I have never asked anyone else to flag a comment.