I'm not sure about how much protection they offer. Misty is very courageous. I was outside with her and a neighbor's black lab got loose and was walking by our house and Misty stood up to the dog and got between me and the dog protecting me. And then there's video of the cat chasing away the bear. I also saw a cat chasing a fox away from the neighbor's hen house too.

IMO cleaning a kitty box is a lot less gross than not only cleaning up a dog's poo but then having to carry it around until you can find a trash can! If I ever got a dog again, I'd get a back pack for the dog so s/he could carry her own bags and poop!

While cats don't need much training ... which is far easier to do as kittens from the get go ... they do need some...at least in my house. They have to learn not to be on any kitchen counters. They have to learn not to scratch my couches. They don't need to learn to use the kitty boxes as that comes naturally to them. They learn their names pretty quickly, and know quite a few words, though it's more questionable whether they'll pay attention to them. The best thing I taught my cats was, "SCRAM!" I say it in my "mom* voice and clap my hands and they take off. Very useful when they are about to get into trouble, I can get them to back off immediately.

I'm team cat but I love dogs. I'm not home a lot and I travel quite often, so a dog for a pet wouldn't be the right pet for me. I get my "dog fix" from other people's dogs.

As someone else said, you get back what you put in to a cat. The two I currently have, as with all my previous cats, are very affectionate and attentive. They're strictly indoors, so don't know there is an "outside." Both are sitting on my lap right now. They recognize the sound of my car when I get home and are standing in the hallway when I come in the door.

And the litterbox - not a big deal. I scoop it in the morning and evening, and occasionally if I'm in the area where the box is located, if I think about it. I have two of them, and both get cleaned out every two weeks. Fresh litter is added often.

And I've never had any cat claw anything they weren't supposed to. I have a couple of scratching posts, and leather furniture. They aren't attracted to the leather so never scratch it. When I first bring home a new kitty, the first thing I do is rub their paws on the scratching post. They're scent is then on the post, and they know that is where it's okay to scratch.

In any house with pets I have always been the preferred person. I love dogs and adore cats. I live with the cat distribution system so I always have cats. I find homes for the ones I cant keep. Two are better than one. They keep each other company even when they dont exactly like each other. They are easier to care for and don't require walking. Get cats. Get rescues. They are so grateful. Cats are not aloof. They really fixate on us. Great story. We had a cat named Moe who got outside and lost. I looked for him for three or four days. Lost hope and lo he showed up. I brought him inside and he proceeded to tell me this long and intricate story. Very dramatic!!!!! Lots of emoting. This is before he would eat. So my husband came home. He jumped up on the table and started into the whole story all over again. It was so funny. Fifteen minutes of meows. Whats not to love?

Do you allow your cat(s) to walk or sit on dining room tables where people eat/ kitchen counters where food is prepared or placed?

NOOOOOO!!!!!!! 🤮 So gross!!

And this is why I don't like potlucks. If I don't know you and your kitchen habits, I don't know if you're letting your cat walk on counters where food is prepared.

I don’t remember any time that I have not shared my life with at least one dog or cat (or bird, or fish, or rat, or rabbit, or lizard, or snake, etc. Yes I’ve had all of those and more). DH says the same. We are both animal lovers.

We don’t really have a favorite team between dog or cat. It’s true that dogs are somewhat needy. For me, that’s part of their appeal.

When the last dog passed away about 20 years ago, we got a kitten from the pound. And we’ve had cats ever since. We feed a colony of feral cats (about a dozen, sometimes more) on our driveway twice a day. We’ve made friends with some of the young and brought them into the house. And sometimes we find a motherless kitten who still needs nursing. Richard gets to do most of the nursing and bathing since he works from home. He gets extra love from the kittens. Kind of makes me jealous. We have six now, ranging in age from 16 months to 9 years old. We promised each other we would stop at that number.

Cats can be needy too, and can be very affectionate. But they are easier to care for. We have 2 awesome Litter Robots.

We love sleeping with at least 3 cats every night in just a full size bed. When I get home from work after dark, Bruno and Buster are looking out the living room window waiting for me. OnceI enter the house, I get hugs, kisses and boops all around.

Cats don’t care what gender a person is. They will love you or not love you based on how you treat them.

There are only a couple of ferals outside that have not yet been neutered or spayed, thanks to a local rescue. They loan us the traps, we trap and transport to animal control for surgery, then let them recover in our garage for a few days, then release.

Team Dog. Mid sized , and never a cat. Why? Because we live surrounded by coyotes and I like keeping my doors to the garden open on nice days, of which there are many. (few insects so no screens on doors)

‘Gird your loins’ here, Elmer: I love having my dog sleep on …not in …the bed with me. I’m aware her paws my not be pristine, so I keep a throw atop the conforter where she lies next to me. Softly touching her can be both mentally and tactilely soothing…to us both, I believe. So, I am giving to her as well, and that’s a pleasant feeling as we both fall off to sleep. You are a guy, and I’m fully aware you may be rolling your eyes…as might my dh at such talk. However, he gets his share of pup petting pleasure in, though he’d never describe it as such. 😀

As much as I love my cats, they have never been allowed to be on the counters or dining tables.

The thought of any animal walking on kitchen counters around food and on dining tables is anathema to me. And while my cats will sleep on my bed, never on the sheets or pillows but on top of the spread. Of course their favorite is any time I put out an article of clothing, especially one that hair will stick to, they will lay on it just to make sure it's properly adorned.

They recommend one more kitty box than you have cats, so we have 3 for our 2 girls. I know our house doesn't smell as I've had strangers come in our house who don't know we have cats until they see the cat condo in the FR. So if your cats stick to kitty boxes which are cleaned regularly, your home won't smell. Not true for dogs. My friend has hounds and though the house is cleaned and the dogs are regularly professional groomed, the hound smell persists.

Only other nasty thing about cats...though dogs do it too... is they do upchuck on occasion, and if they do, they will be sure to find a carpet to do it on. Our house has lots of vinyl flooring, but they will still run to find the carpet first!

Getting kittens allows them to imprint on you so they think you're their mother.

Re letting cats out, my girls are indoor/outdoor cats as have been all our cats. They are allowed out only during the daytime when we're home. They do hang out very close to our house and Misty will even follow me around outside like a puppy dog, hollering for me along the way. While that is not preferred by all cat owners for many reasons, I think cat owners should take their cats out on a leash just to familiarize them with where their home is and the sights and sounds and smells of outdoors so it becomes less frightening to them. That way, if they do get out, they won't be as afraid and will know where they live to come home. Friend had cats and lives in a busy area so didn't let his cats out. One got out one day. They were in quite the frenzy, but fortunately eventually found him hiding under their deck.

No, Elmer, I was not avoiding the question. On my tablet I am not able to whip out a post quickly. I hate tapping one letter at a time, so I use a keyboard that allows me to swipe the words quickly. The keyboard works great everywhere except HOUZZ. Here it jumbles everything. So I swipe a note on my phone, copy it and paste it on my tablet. It’s tedious, but it works. And I may have interruptions while swiping (cat wants a treat, a friend calls to chat, whatever). By the time I paste and submit, I have missed a few replies.

No, jumping on the counter is not allowed. I have only one cat who keeps pushing the envelope. But he gets down when I tell him to do so. And I know how to use soap and disinfectant.

I think you’re kidding yourself if you think a dog’s bathroom activity is less likely to soil their feet.

I know your pets are well trained, but unless you crate them when you leave the house you have no idea what they rub their butts on.

It is said that neutered males are the most friendly and willing to engage. That spayed females tend to be territorial and aloof. In my many years of sharing a household with cats, I can say that these statements are mostly but not always true. Most of my cats have played fetch enthusiastically, some as joyfully as any dog. Paco, our most recent cat, was my shadow, guardian, boon companion, and playmate. He was always up for a game of tag, guess which hand, or hide and seek. He NEVER got on the counters; we could have food out and he wouldn’t even look up.

Cats do much better if kept inside, but humans must provide plenty of entertainment for them. Cats that are allowed access to the outdoor world come home with fleas, ticks, worms of various kinds, infections from other cats, wounds from other animals, and become prey for hawks, dogs, owls, coyotes, and humans.

Kittens are absolutely mesmerizing but absolutely in to all kinds of mischief from curtain climbing to mattress skimming and everything in between.

elmer, i couldn't agree more with you. cats on kitchen counters/tables, just the idea, makes my skin crawl.

nicole___ all of those negative things you mention, most are due to lazy dog owners not willing to put the time in to actually train their dogs. in 17 years of having great danes, i have not one single time came home to poo in the house. granted, they have a dog door and know how to use it but that wasn't always the case. pretty much any time i was gone, the dogs spent the entire time sleeping. i have several pet cameras and any time i checked them, i saw snoozing dogs.

i've always had at least 2 danes, oftentimes i had 3 and at one point i had 4 for a couple of years. they NEVER chewed on anything other than their own toys. one of them loved those fuzzy pillows you can get at the dollar stores, they were like stuffies for him. he would sleep with them, carry them around and eventually he'd shred them but he never once bothered the decorative throw pillows i have on my 2 sofas.

if a person can't take the time and make a real effort to train their dog, they shouldn't even have a dog.

Chloebud, that face is PRECIOUS!

In my opinion, when you have a cat (and I have had several that lived long lives), it's on their terms. They are affectionate when they feel like it. But for me the biggest downsides are having a litter box and also having furniture destroyed. Oh and the hair, having cat hair on everything.

The down side to dogs is having to be home within about an 8 or 9 hour time frame.

Ideally: I wanted older cats, past the kitten phase. Neutered males. A pair. Long haired cats barf hair-balls, short haired typically don't. I got one of each. Females can be prissy or moody. I like a more masculine, independant personality. And...rescues. These two needed a home!

@Ninapearl....I'm working on a remodel and I might be gone 12-14 hours. Dogs need to be let out..or have a doggy door. We have raccoons, skunks, bobcat, mtn lions...I can't have a doggy door in the woods. I'd have to bring the dog with me when I'm working. Home Depot allows leashed dogs to be in the store. That would work.

Elliott is like velcro

Entering my house ,no one would know I had three cats, All four large litter pans are in the basement and are cleaned every day . I didn't even have to show the newest cat where they are. No poop or pee in the house and cats smell delicious. Bury your nose and a clean cat which mine are and there's zero smell. Not so with dogs even if they're bathed, AS I said I don't sleep with any pet, dogs when I had them or any of my cats except to take a brief nap. It's them moving around that I don't like. But sleeping with a dog grosses me out when they are out all day and do have a doggy smell and dirty feet.

The butcherblock large island is cleaned many times a day and as I said they are not allowed on the soapstone where I actually prepare food. My plate is carried to the island on a placement and on a plate. My cats sits a foot or two away watching me eat. How is this unsanitary? My cats don't throw up. It might be the good food I give them but Poppy never has and neither has Willie but Bernie has chucked a few fur balls over the years.

But not in a million years has any of my 18 cats over the decades been allowed outside. Every single day on local FB or Next Door, cats are missing escaping from their homes and found killed on the road. There are nasty dogs who would kill cats, fleas ,mites, poison from evil people, stealing for dog fight baits,hawks, coyotes and mean boys who torture them. There are so many sad horror stories. , that I would never ever let them out. Besides I feed many birds and cats kill millions a year.

For me, it doesn't feel like a home without a cat.

I have no problem with the litter box. The cat uses it independantly and it takes me less than a minute to scoop. No way would I want to schedule my life around a dog's bowel habits.

My cat jumps on the counter on her way to jumping to the top of the cabinets. I keep a spray bottle of vinegar and water and wipe my kitchen counter down every time I cook as well as while I'm cooking. It's as much a habit as washing my hands. Animal or none, I can't imagine NOT cleaning the counter before setting food on it.

There are a lot of dogs in my building and I'm friendly with many of them. I like to look at them, but have no desire to pet them. I don't like that doggy smell or way my hand smells after I touch them.

I am a dog person but for some reason a lot of cats will come sit on my lap when I go visit people. I don't know why. They also love my yard. There are three neighborhood cats that I see all the time in my yard. Only one will come up and let me pet him. The other day, my daughter came over with her two dogs and I was out saying goodbye to her dogs at the back window of her vehicle, when Butter, who is always wanting my attention, actually moved her head from side to side because I was blocking her view of one of those cats. I thought I had done something to make her mad, then we saw the cat.

Anyway, have only had one cat, Bushido. He scratched up my furniture and started peeing all over my daughter's bed and clothes she left out. The only person he seemed to like was our exchange student from Turkey. Everytime Duray would come into the livingroom, here ran Bushido, jumping on his lap. We rehomed Bushido some time after Duray left.

I think Chewie will be my last dog. He's 14 or so now. I also never trained any of my dogs, other than to sit or shake hands. Maybe using a stern voice to tell them to take a treat nicely instead of biting your fingers off. I've also had big backyards for them to roam in, no walking a dog. Only people who ever walked my dogs were the kids living in my house.

I also remember cat sitting when I was stationed in Germany. Two cats, found cat vomit on one of my pillows.

Having both I think cats are cleaner than dogs. My cats spend a huge part of their day grooming and washing themselves. I have never bathed a cat in my life. They smell lovely. As an only child, I begged for a pet bringing home puppies and kittens from a nearby farm only to be told to return them. At ten years old I saved my dollar a week allowance and bought a parakeet which was all I was allowed to have. He was still alive when I was in college. I told my mother I would always have pets when I grew up and I certainly have. I made sure MY kids were raised with pets from day one. They both grew up with the first cat, a Siamese who lived to 20 and the Afghan hound. The result...son and daughter have always had cats and now the cat distribution has gotten to the grandkids. Grandaughter has two ginger ones and the grandson will get one when he and his GF move. Interestingly, none have ever had a dog. No more dogs for me but if I could reincarnate my only mutt (the other three were purebreds) I would take him back in a heartbeat. I loved and miss him.

Do you allow your cat(s) to walk or sit on dining room tables where people eat/ kitchen counters where food is prepared or placed?

Absolutely not! and they are easily able to be taught to stay off of those surfaces.

I've known many gentlemen who were cat lovers, including my neighbor, my ex, and my brother.

@Elmer....I also LOVE German Shepherds' my favorite dog in the world. Mine would howl when we'd leave. The neighbor complained . Said she shouldn't have to listen to such noise. Also my GSD slept on the couch when we'd leave, not when we were there. She'd eat grass or a bug then have diarrhea in the middle of the night, she'd try to wake one of us up with no success. A cat just runs to it's cat box...which is downstairs in my house. No one knows it's there. Dogs go around a corner and leave dirt on the wall, slobber on ALL the windows. They scratch the door to go outside. We had plaster walls growing up....and the plaster had to be patched. Screens replaced. Once, my GSD saw a magpie eating her bone and lunged through a sliding glass door. A magazine salesman stuck his foot in the door, got aggressive...almost lost his life when my GSD lunged for his throat! Another GSD we had when I was a little kid, mom had me in the stroller, leash in her hand, lunged for a small dog walking the other direction on a leash, with it's owner....tore out it's throat. 250 stitches, it lived.

Cats are just not like this. Pretty much no insurance company asks if you have a cat before they'll insure you.

No, my cats do not walk on my kitchen counters. Yes to the laundry and mud room counters. That's where I keep one of the water stations, so I don't step in it.

Yes...I would like to own a dog....maybe...some day.

I'm both but I love BIG dogs. But I wouldn't trade my cat for anything. Myben sleeps on the pillow and stretches her leg so she is giving me a hug. I gave her the nickname No One. That's because when I get home No One greets me at the door. No One gives me kisses and No One loves me.

I have both. George the cat is not allowed on counters, tables or beds. He is allowed on one ugly chair that was left by the people we bought the house from. He know this. And I do not do litter boxes, neither does George. He goes outside as he wants. He was a stray that had clearly been on his own for a while that came up to the house who I decided to keep. It took him a while to want to come inside at all. I never even considered a litter box. He goes in and out as he pleases and does his business outside. He does not even go in the kitchen. If he comes inside, it is because he is ready to eat and go to sleep. He comes in, goes to the laundry room where his food and water is, then gets in his chosen spot to sleep all day and afternoon. I used to have a very bad allergy to cats, but after 3 years of him with us, it has markedly improved. I did not venture out to get a cat. He needed me, that was all. And I do think my life is richer having him in it. My SO is not a cat man, and will not pet George at all. But he does make sure he has food and water, and lets him in and out on command. He likes all animals in general and will feed any stray cat he sees. But I am quite sure he never expected to own one. He does enjoy the fact that George is quite the rodent assassin, which is handy out in the sticks where we live. I like that he is a very sweet cat, always ready for scritches and he likes to hang out with me while I garden. He and the dogs we have left like to snuggle.

Dogs are more needy. They require more time, attention, patience, maintenance, for lack of a better term. But, IMO, you get a bigger reward with dog ownership. Can't really elaborate on that more. I have had many dogs. Mostly pit bulls or pit bull mixes, a couple German Shepards. I just lost our German Shepard, Muffin, who quite literally simply dropped dead one day. Vet thinks it was a heart issue, though that has never come up as a concern in her check ups. Now we just have a mutt and a Bull Mastiff. Yes, it is annoying to be woken up by a whining pup with a bathroom emergency. And I spent countless hours cleaning slobber globs off the walls. But it is just part of the price to have the joy and companionship that comes with the truly unconditional love and affection of a dog.

I would not choose between dogs or cats. Both bring me happiness. They are different its true. But I suppose the important thing is to look at what is required to give the chosen animal the life it deserves, weigh that against the amount of time, energy, emotional investment and of course money, and decide which one fits better for your life. Sometimes that means no pets at all. And that's ok too.

I too, know several men who love cats. I deal with hundreds of truck drivers, most of them men. A lot of them have pets ride in their truck with them. Dogs, cats, birds, snakes, I've seen it all. There are feral cats out there at work that I feed. Lots of the drivers will put scraps out for them, I have rehomed many kittens from there with men. My nephews all love cats. Dogs too, of course. But I think its a weird thing to insist on, that males are not likely to like or seek out ownership of cats. Its not true. I know many men who are cat owners without the coercion of a female. 🙄

George and Leo having a snuggle.

Sometimes they like to nap in the crate. Not sure why. The only time the dogs are confined to a crate with it closed is when I am cleaning, because they get in the way, and they do not like the vacuum. We do not crate the dogs when we leave them alone. They do not destroy things. They are well trained and well behaved. But Leo like to go in his crate and sleep sometimes.

Elmer -- I'll call and raise you two:

1. Was house-hunting years ago, and back in those days (turn of the 21st century) realtors used to drive clients around for back-to-back showings, would spend a whole or partial day driving around looking at showings. So we walk into one house and what do we see? Cat sh*t all over the counter. Yes, actual SH*T on the counter. I was disgusted, my realtor was PO'd -- he called the listing realtor and ripped him a new one. I obviously didn't buy the house. Slobs.

2. Was looking for a new massage therapist, and the one that had an office in town for quite some time re-located her business to her home during the pandemic. I booked an appointment. I should have left as soon as I walked in. It was bad enough the house smelled like old lady, but there was no privacy in the changing area (wide open to a large lake) and there was both a cat and a dog roaming the house while I was lying there nekkid on the table. The client area was set up in the back of the living room, and the cat was walking all over the living room furniture and mewing the whole time I was there. It skeeved me out. I couldn't wait to get out there. I never should have stayed in the first place. Thankfully neither the dog nor the cat jumped on the massage table while I was on it, but I can't be confident the cat wasn't on it before I was. I did not tip, and I never went back. That hands-down had to be the worse massage experience I've ever had. Completely unacceptable to let pets roam around the treatment area when you are providing an intimate service for a client.

"Sometimes they like to nap in the crate. Not sure why."

Dogs like enclosed spaces, it's like their den, they feel safe and secure in that type of environment. All the dogs I've had occasionally napped in their crates on their own accord. The one I have now also does so, but she prefers under the desk in my home office (enclosed on three sides), or tucked behind the chaise lounge in the living room up against the corner of the wall.

People overly concerned with cat paws on counters or cat hair are obviously biased dog people. Because they have dogs, yet don't recognize the equivalence of kissing dogs on the mouth (after they just licked their loins but didn't see it), all the hair dogs leave, slobber dripped on the floor, licking leftovers from plates, or what they can't see on the floor without a flashlight from dirty paws going outside multiple times a day to potty.

OCD people will learn to relax a bit when they love and befriend an animal. All animals are dirty, even Macaulay Culkin agrees "you filthy animal."

Elmer, you totally missed the point. Cat people are not bothered by how truly dirty their cats are. Dog people are not bothered by how truly dirty their dogs are. For a dog owner to call out the dirtiness of a cat, or vice versa, is not seeing the forest for the trees. For some reason cats on counters has usurped the lightheartedness of this thread.

And you also missed the famous phrase "you filthy animal" from a popular movie, where I purposefully misappropriated the phrase to insinuate Mr. Culkin (the actor) thinks all animals are dirty, attempting to insert a sly bit of humor.

Team cat.

I have had pets all of my adult life, both dogs and cats and typically simultaneously. I like them both but lean more to dogs than cats. I guess I prefer the devotion to their human caretakers dogs exhibit as cats do have an independence and standoffishness that most dogs do not. But it does depend on the cat. My last cat was quite the character and displayed more dog-like behavior than cat-like. He was well known in the neighborhood and would often go visit neighbors that had dogs as he very much liked them, especially a little doxie that lived down the street. He was an indoor-outdoor cat for most of his life until an unfortunate encounter with a coyote in later life. Although saved from a coyote dinner by my dog at the time, I decided he was getting too old to roam out in the dangerous world and kept inside from then on until he passed from old age several years later. He was perfectly content to ust snooze and cuddle and didn't see to miss outdoors

I have only had small dogs but often several at a time. At one point I had 5 dogs but that included one I inherited after my mom passed away and a rescue we took in after his elderly owner died. Usually it was only one or two at a time. My dogs have never been crated after outgrowing the puppy stage and they have always been allowed to go wherever they want in the house, including up on the furniture or the bed. Most of the time they preferred their own bed to mine :-)

Since my last dog, a Cocker spaniel that is my screen avatar, passed away, I have been dog-less.....sort of. My sister and I co-own a Havanese. She has a very active life and travels often to visit her family around the country so Javi (short for Javier) spends half his life with me and half with her. He is a remarkably savvy little guy and takes the moving back and forth between households in stride, showing extreme delight every time his "other mother" shows up. My sister bought him but after both of us met him and his littermates as she has said she could never manage a dog all on her own. He was acquired with shared ownership intended, although she willingly pays all the bills :-) When the breeder was looking to rehome one of her females she no longer wanted to breed, my sister encouraged me to get one of my own, but my heart already belonged to Javi and I didn't want the responsibility and financial burden of direct, fulltime dog ownership.

I have recently considered getting a cat...another ginger tom like my previous boy. As a single older woman living alone, the presence of another small warm body sharing my life is appealing. And Javi loves cats!

Although any cats I have owned have never gotten on counters or tabletops, that would not necessarily be a deal breaker for me. Pets are by nature grubby little creatures and they do not have the same hygienic habits we do. If you can't overlook that fact, then perhaps you shouldn't have any pets.

I also had pet bunnies when my daughter was growing up. But they lived outside in a handbuilt bunny condo. I brought them inside once with cold weather but that was a massive mistake. Talk about destructive!!

Since Elmer has a dislike of cats and is a biased dog person, I , unlike him, have had both. Eighteen cats and four dogs. First dog the Afghan lived 14 years the second the greyhound ten years and the last two simultaneously lived here for 15 and 17 years so I have way more experience with dogs since you have none with cats. And you imply only beta men like cats. My son is one of the top mountain bike competitors in this part of the country and my grandson is a superb athlete in track and cycling.

As I said my four large litter boxes are in the basement so no smell in the house. Cleaning litter boxes way beats picking up slimy dog poop in a bag and carrying it home. Three of my dogs were very short-haired and I have two long-haired cats and I see zero difference in the accumulated hair. My dogs have done more destructive things around the house than any of my 18 cats. The greyhound had separation anxiety and chewed 180-year-old windows when we were away for an hour. My cats are not allowed on the table or the counters where I prepare food but their bowls are on the island and they often sit there and watch me eat. They do NOT walk on my plate.

My strong dislike of cats has nothing to do with them walking on the counter (or not). I just don't like them. I find them unsettling. Nowhere as much as monkeys or other primates which totally, utterly creep me out to the nth degree {shudder}.

@porkchop_z5b_MI boy, am I with you about monkeys! I really am creeped out by them, too. But I’ve yet to meet a cat I didn’t love or want to get to know better

"They were able to get quite close to most of them, including the gorillas and the chimps."

Did they get hit with any flying chimp dung?

"It got Grandma!" Chimpanzee flings poop, hits elderly woman in the face - CBS News

The presence of a steady stream of humans getting very close to wildlife for their selfish pleasure of 'viewing' them changes the natural environment of those animals. It's possible the frenzies displayed is simply a response to natural boundaries being disrespected by humans.

"The movie you linked to was from a zoo."

It's still hilarious IMO. Funny as flying sh*t is, monkeys, chimps, and the like give me the willies, zoo or no zoo.

Wow, me having an epa certified wood stove really sticks in your craw! Not sure what that has to do with people flying halfway around the world to gawk at wild animals who surely would prefer to be left alone, but somehow you see a connection. That seems a little crazy.

I've been to places like Elmer is talking about. Harrison Ford started such a Zoo after a movie he made and the animals on set had nowhere to go. Or.....Raymond Burr. He set up an orchid sanctuary...which over flowed into an animal sanctuary. Lots of places like this. Our Taxi driver was petting a jaguarundi, putting his hands through the enclosure while the big cat sunk into his scratching fingers, while monkeys screamed over head with visible metal netting above them. Animals need protection. Safety. A food source away from humans. They need to be in sanctuaries. Our world has to change...gradually....in order to support all the growing human populations on each continent. THAT needs to be addressed too....and limited.

Note: I've ridden Asian Elephants which are kept, fed, housed for no other purpose than a tourist attraction in Indonesia/native to India. If put out in the wild they would starve to death or be hunted for their ivory. They are on the endangered species list.

If humans want to support sanctuaries, and many of us do, they can donate the money they spend on travel to these far away places (and save the jet fuel). There is no benefit to the animals of a steady stream of humans in their environment. It’s simply selfish privilege that people feel entitled to that access. It has nothing to do with preservation. If it did, they’d stay home and write a check.

@Olychick...I'm guilty. I didn't even know Asian Elephants were endangered until I was riding one...and was given a big speal. How about waking up a nocturnal Koala Bear, to hold one and smell it's eucalyptus scented fur. Guilty. Our American education just doesn't include ALL things valuable to this planet.

" No one gives higher value to your views than you do. "

And how would you possibly know that? That's a pretty big assumption.

" Please stop being needlessly belligerent."

Pot, kettle, black.

Acclimating wild animals to human interaction in an effort to "save them" is wrong on so many levels it is hard to even start on it and then there is the real danger to the people getting close up to animals that can easily tear off their arm. Animals that are domesticated are dangerous enough but wild animals are just that-wild. They are unpredictable and the becoming accustomed to human interaction is totally unsafe for them and any people who contact them. The ones that pay are almost always the wild animals. People need to stop swimming with dolphins. It is a selfish thing to do.

The animals don't benefit from tourists. Send a check and stay home.

The issue of wildlife tourism is not quite as black and white as that. If it's badly regulated of course it's bad. No question. But one needs to ask what the alternative is. These animals live in environments where there is a local human population which needs to live a decent life. Without the income from properly organised, restricted, high paying visitors what are their alternatives? Simply 'sending a check' is not that straightforward. The animals don't need money. They need freedom from poaching, armed conflict, habitat destruction and persecution when they ruin crops. The locals, however, do need money. But is it better to just send money to them so they leave the animals alone, ie make them reliant on foreign charity handouts? Or to provide a positive reason for protecting the animals which allow them to run businesses, acquire training and give their children better lives. Ideally, of course the people would lead happy and productive lives far away from the primates who, in turn, would frolic in their pristine wilderness. Sadly, that is not possible and a practical symbiotic modus vivendi has to be sought.

And just to correct some of the apparent misapprehensions above, the gorillas of Uganda, DRC and Rwanda are not in zoos or enclosures. People don't arrive in droves by vehicle to see them. It's a long and pretty gruelling trek to where they are, led by trained local rangers, and numbers are highly restricted. They live in the wild and their populations have actually increased since properly regulated wildlife tourism began. So, in short, the animals do benefit from tourists, where those tourists are well managed.

https://www.worldwildlife.org/species/mountain-gorilla

Send $ to the organizations who are tasked with protecting the animals. The amount of $ and fuel/resources spent flying entitled, privileged people to have a gander at endangered wildlife is simply wrong from my perspective. And since it's a booming business, obviously it's not a perspective shared by the people who want what they want and have the means to get it.

The point is that 'organisations tasked with protecting animals' can't achieve that unless the local population has an interest in doing so. Just fencing off a huge area and telling the locals to keep out doesn't work. If they can't afford to educate their children and their crops and livestock are being destroyed by wild animals they have no choices but habitat destruction for land and fuel and poaching for cash. Well organised tourism gives them an alternative. Effectively, good wildlife tourism makes use of a natural resource, the wildlife, and exploits a valuable source of income, tourists.

I would emphasise GOOD wildlife tourism. That is the kind where animals are not disturbed and are simply observed in silence from a good distance as they live their natural lives. So not the kind with large visitor groups, noise, enclosures, touching animals, posing for photos, riding, etc.

Team Dog, which is obvious by the pictues I have posted through the years. The last time my family had a cat was when I was 9, over 63 years ago. I think she was black and white and her name was Frosty. She was a outdoor cat, except during Massachusetts winters.

@floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK We'll never agree, but thank you for your thoughtful and reasoned response.

We were in Turks n' Caicos when our yacht stopped to let us get our snorkling gear on...because...there were two dolphins riding the wake of our boat...that the captain & crew recognized. One spotted dolphin, one blue. They liked people, obviously had prior experience with people and wanted to "play". I'm not convinced wild animals hate humans.

floral said " People don't arrive in droves by vehicle to see them. It's a long and pretty gruelling trek to where they are, led by trained local rangers, and numbers are highly restricted. "

Yup, that's what was described to me. One gorilla encounter was an unexpectedly grueling "hike" of 2 hours each way, for about a 30 minute viewing session.

floral, it's not an unexpected irony that your views were described as thoughful, which I agree they are, They are thoughtful and informed. The person disagreeing with you, hers not so much.