I work in schools. The 'low pay' claim is HIGHLY debated. 75K medium sized town for 9mos work is really not bad. I think young teachers quit fast due to poor preparation in the area of classroom management. Unfortunately it's rather baked into the system. You don't know if you can control a class until you have to. Student teachers are not legally allowed to be alone with students due to safety insurance of schools. Many young teachers run for the hills as soo many students exhibit challenging behaviors. I can't say when the tide turned but for most of my career teachers would say the worst part of teaching was parents. Not true now. Students behavior and lack of administrative help is the number one reason teachers are moving on. Teaching is an art and sorry but it does not require one to be the top 10 in a University graduating class. That's a tacky judgement.

Teachers are most certainly underpaid for the work they do. Not only that, they often lack support from parents, who think their precious little angel babies can do no wrong, and administrators who are more concerned with policy than education.

Elmer, didn't you say that many of your family members incuding your wife are public school teachers?

https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5164588/teachers-pay#n=64

75K is not average pay for public school teachers here - and in a number of other states as well - it's much lower. Of course cost of living varies by state too.

And now we have culture wars making the jobs even less attractive and more difficult.

I feel the need to add to my post. So many people do not know or care what teachers go through. My oldest sister is a teachers aide/assistant in elementary school. She makes something like 900 dollars a MONTH. I know that she is not a teacher, but still, considering that a childs education is one of the most important things in their life, I think that is outrageous for anyone involved in that process to make such a small amount. She has to deal with such garbage its ridiculous. For example, there is a child in one of her classes, that CLEARLY has no business being in a regular school environment. He is 5, knows every filthy word in the English language, and likes to throw desks and chairs at people. Despite the staffs pleadings to admin to insist this child be dealt with appropriately, the powers that be just go along with the parents idea that he belongs there. He needs to be in an alternative school with a staff that is trained to deal with little monsters with the diagnosis he has. She has had parents come in demanding to know WHY their childs homework wasn't being done. UM, its HOMEWORK dummy. That's your job to make sure its done. Also, she started there with the understanding that she would be working with pre k and kindergarten students. Admin decided that they were gonna just put her all over, in every grade, and she HATES it. They do not care. They don't. There are 1st graders who are not yet potty trained. There are biters. There are the unmedicated ADHD children who disrupt learning for the other students. There are sick children that are sent to school anyway because the parents do not feel like taking care of there own kid or arranging for childcare. They treat the teachers and other staff like their personal nannies. They have no interest in aiding or participating in their own kids education. There are kindergarteners that don't know the alphabet or how to count. And it goes on. Who is supposed to want to deal with that and not be properly compensated for it?

" Elmer, didn't you say that many of your family members incuding your wife are public school teachers? "

Yes indeed. Did you read the second, third and following sentences of my comments that began this thread? Top of the page, just above.

Since you seem to like to cut and paste, I'll repeat a second time in this thread what my first comments were. No need to knock yourself out searching for old threads, but I hope you admire the consistency of my views today with what I said 6 years ago.

quoting myself from above:

" My wife was a part-time teacher before her retirement. We have friends and relatives who are or have been teachers. Same is true of several friends of my kids - many spent a few years in Teach for America...."

I work in a school and while the education systems are slightly different, from my reading the issues which prompt the teacher shortages are essentially the same.

Teachers here are saddled with a ton of administrative paperwork which greatly increases their workload, having to document pretty well every interaction they have in the classroom and contact parents as necessary.

Students are unmotivated, can't really see the point in learning stuff since they feel it can all be looked up on Google. There is little sense of curiosity or wonder any more.

Behaviour is poor, as they have been raised to think they are each the centre of their personal universe so they can do as they like. Their parents often back them up in this belief. Probably 80% of a teacher's time in any given class is taken up with classroom management. Student believe that teachers "have to earn their respect" instead of simply behaving respectfully because the teacher is in a superior position. (I don't care what the student's inner thoughts are- they don't have to actually respect the teacher, but their outward behaviour should be respectful.)

Parents often don't provide school supplies so unless the school is willing to provide these the teachers often spend their own money doing so. Far from being grateful for this, the students often destroy the provided supplies. I find so many pens and pencils either broken (so the ink can be drooled out onto the desk or floor) or simply thrown out in the schoolyard, and notebooks with endless pages just scribbled on or with obscene drawings. Text books are defaced, as is class furniture.

Teachers are sworn at and assaulted and there is little support or push back from the school administration unless the offence is extreme.

You couldn't pay me enough to be a teacher.

. No need to knock yourself out

No need to be so defensive, you should be proud of having teachers in your family.

So many people do not know or care what teachers go through.

Absolutely. I was a school nurse for years and saw firsthand what teachers have to deal with. For a few years my ISD decided that to save money they would make nurses teach classes daily for a few hours so they would not have to pay assistants while the teacher had planning time.

It was instant disaster, and after it played out in court the school district no longer did this but I will never forget the time I had to become an instant teacher. I had no experience and I taught several grades, one of which was a bilingual pre-k where too many students had registered, and I spoke no Spanish.

Our wonderful school secretary had to be the nurse while I taught, but she had no experience. She sent a student with a broken bone back to class with a piece of ice, and similar episodes but she was trying her best. One teacher carried a student into the room where I was teaching one time while the student was having breathing difficulties due to asthma.

I have always respected the teachers I worked with for all they did, and those feelings only increased after I was put in the position of having to teach. I certainly think that teachers deserve better pay, less paperwork, more respect, and should not be forced to keep violent students in their classroom because the district does not want to pay to have them out of the classroom until they are no longer a threat to safety.

Did I say something defensive regarding them? What I said to you was you seem to have gone to a needless effort to see if I'd contradicted myself on the same topic at another time. You found I hadn't. You're the one that needs a moment of deep breathing.

As far as being proud of them, do you think there are some legit occupations family and friends should be proud of that people they know do and other legit ones, not so much? You're welcome to that view if you have it, I don't share it.

Three of the ones I know do not fit the profile I described. The others I know, and those in umpteen stories these three peoples have shared with me over the years of situations and of their colleagues, too consistently so.

Elmer, are you OK?

Average salary for teachers in my school district is $117,000. Starting salaries are around $76k. Not whatI would call underpaid. There is no shortage of teachers here.

Go a few miles east into the Philadelphia public school district and its a different story.

I have multiple family members that are teachers (retired and active). There is no doubt in my mind that education from an early age is critical for a child’s development both at home and in a school setting.

That said, there is quite a disparity in teacher pay across the U.S. The town I live in has average salaries for experienced teachers of $75k at the elementary/middle school level and $100k+ at the high school level. Administrators are at the $200-250K level. This is not by any means a wealthy area or high COLA town, but we do have very high property taxes, of which 70% goes to the schools. Teacher salaries are higher than the average income in my community.

I’ve also heard stories from family and friends of difficult parents and disruptive students although that seems to vary by area. I wish I had a solution for these issues.

I do think some teachers have unrealistic expectations with regard to salary as my family members compare their teaching salaries with salaries of engineers at Meta, Google, Microsoft, Amazon etc. Those salaries are outliers and not what the average college grad earns in my area. Earlier in my career, I worked for a global tech company for 28 years. I’ve noted to my family members that I worked 12 months vs 9 months per year and always had to be available even if I was on vacation or it was the middle of the night because my employer operated 24/7 around the world. My typical work week was a minimum of 70 hours/week and involved international travel. So salary comparisons were not apples to apples.

lucille, you're the one who has made odd, very off the wall comments. Are you okay?

Do you worship your plumber too? That's a harder, smellier, dirtier job.

Elmer J FuddOriginal Author

4 hours ago

lucille, you're the one who has made odd, very off the wall comments. Are you okay?

Do you worship your plumber too? That's a harder, smellier, dirtier job.

Faftris, that’s a sad story. Im glad your daughter is doing well now.

Heritage, teachers get emails at all hours from students and parents and can get an earful if they don’t respond immediately. And the teachers I know appreciate their summers off but often work then, and they also work beyond the last day of school in spring and before the first day back. They grade and plan at home. Many have school obligations in the evenings and weekends (such as music directors) and if they coach or mentor an organization, perhaps weekends away to events.

On top of dealing with, well, everything. What they are told to do, what they know works, what students want versus what they need, etc. Not to mention all the squirrely student social circus.

I worked in preschools as an aide, and was amazed at what those teachers did. And when I taught the preschoolers in vacation bible school, and mind you they were sweet little kids and it was only a week, I took a two-hour nap every afternoon.

I actually went to graduate school to teach ESL, there were a lot of options in Texas including emergency certification for public schools, university teaching, etc. ESL is a whole other thing, students come from so many different backgrounds, that can impact their learning. It did come in handy when I had a preschooler I was an aide to, the child had a suspected behavior disorder or something. It occurred to me, after a couple of weeks, that they might have a language comfort issue. I worked on that with them, things resolved nicely, and by Thanksgiving I was assigned to a new child.

Maybe back to the intended topic and away from the side trip, wherein I responded in kind with a weird comment of my own, to what struck me as an odd and unkind comment with an insulting insinuation.

I know there are many areas with better financed school systems where the offer of higher salaries allows more selectiveness in hiring. The ones I've known of are in more affluent areas. I believe schools in my area rely on state funding based on daily attendance stats, it's never been clear to me how school systems in more affluent (and political administratively disconnected) areas can offer better pay than those not too far away inner city systems. As dedtired shared from her experiences with what's presumably a suburban system compared to the inner city one in Philadelphia.

I think that it's the schools in the lower economic areas that matter the most to our communities and society as a whole. These are the ones that have the most serious problems hiring teachers - the conditions and dangers of employment, the peripheral family and student issues that come to school every day, all provide disincentives for prospective job candidates.

Worldwide, regional and national development experts and organizations seem to all agree that improving education is the most effective way to raise the living standards and economic opportunities and output in poor countries.

The US contributes a lot of money, as we should, to help development in Third World countries. Why do we not inject funds in K-12 education to a game changing level domestically?

You finally said something I can agree with wholeheartedly. We have so much money, and I think it can be spent in much smarter ways. Education is at the top of that list for me.

I do want to help other countries, but maybe we should help ourselves too.

My daughter teaches 3rd grade at a public charter school in Philadelphia. Several years ago, she decided to leave that school for another public charter in Philly for a very significant salary increase. She didn't want to leave her school. The admins of her school were wonderful. They truly cared about the kids. But the money was significant enough, life changing enough, that she felt she had to do it for her family. She was miserable. The admin at the new school did not care about the kids at all. All he cared about was getting the $$ from the state/city.

She is such a wonderful teacher. When she left her original school, the CEO told her that she was going to get their pay scale fixed (which she'd been trying to do for some time) and would bring her back. Thank goodness she managed to do that before start of the next school year. She brought my daughter back at the same salary she was making at the 2nd awful school.

My point of the story is even schools in the same area can have drastically different pay scales and drastically different administrations.

She does make a decent salary now. On the other hand, this will be her 14th or 15th year teaching. My son, her brother, graduated college last June with a software engineering degree. He's been at his job almost exactly 1 year and he makes more than she does. I'm proud of him, and he followed his dad and my footsteps (dad was computer engineer major and I was computer science). But our daughter certainly contributes a lot more to society than our son does. They are both happy in their careers, so it's all good here. But teachers deserve more.

Thankfully, my daughter was hired when there was still a pension plan. When she has 30 or 35 years (can't remember which), she can retire with a full pension. One or two years after she was hired, new hires did not get pensions. Knowing she is making a real difference in these kids lives is a huge motivator for her, but that pension doesn't hurt!

In that awful state in which my daughter worked, teacher salaries were set by the state legislature, who clearly had no respect for them.

What frightens me is that because of the cost of college today, no one will opt to teach when they can earn much more money majoring in business or tech fields. So many of my friends' kids work for sports-betting companies! My DD2 was "lucky" in that she had a full-tuition merit scholarship at her dream school, and we were able to cover her living expenses. Her "walking around money" came from an on-campus job and from lifeguarding in the summer .I shudder to think what her life would have been like if she had loans to pay off. I always thought that higher education was just that, to delve more deeply into something that grabbed you and wouldn't let you go. Who is going to pass along the knowledge of literature, history and philosophy? Call me unrealistic. I am. But Mr. Scavone, who was my HS English teacher twice (I hit the jackpot), changed my life.

Only one of the teachers I know is the primary wage earner of the household, a younger member of my extended family.

Two of the others are people who by age 40 or so had profited enough by career and employer choice serendipity to have amassed pretty substantial net worths, enough so as to have no further need for employment. Both found vanilla retirement boring and both became teachers. One, a guy who had made his money as a sales exec with a company that sky-rocketed, started a DECA program (business education for high schoolers) at his local high school and spent many happy years in that endeavor. Almost like an evangelist of any type might. The other is an engineer who similarly made his fortune through stock options with his Silicon Valley employer that was acquired. He decided to try teaching advanced math classes, also in high school. And found it like it.

The sales guy got a provisional credential but had to take some classes to get a permanent one. The engineer had a Masters degree and somehow was able to slot right in, perhaps because of his background in an area where job applicants able to teach Calculus were not numerous.

Both of these guys, to their credit, found that working with students at schools in lower socioeconomic neighborhoods was more satisfying. Their nest eggs gave them the freedom to choose where they wanted to work without regard to pay scale differences. I suspect that's not the case for many teachers.

Cramming dozens of children in a single room for half a day and serving them a largely uniform diet of "schooling" is a recipe for failure. The system is inherently self-defeating. Throwing more money at it won't solve the problem, because the problem is the system itself, which must be changed, rather than enhanced financially.

Some people are genuine teachers, but they are rare, and not all of them find their way to the school system, or manage to hold out in it. Most so-called teachers are teachers by title only.

And not everybody is cut out to be a student for 12 years. The three Rs can be covered in half this time, or even less, and tradespeople can make a good living.

Of course tradespeople are important but everyone needs a basic education. The law in most states covers attendance through grade 12 , so that's that. I believe we should not tolerate kids dropping out of high school before they finish. That's a poor start to life as a contributing member of society.

What do you suggest can be done to improve what you describe as a failed and ineffective system?

Suggesting that kids should not attend school through high school is not a good solution.

Trades people are vital and not everyone needs to or should go to college. But everyone needs a base education and it's not just "the three Rs".

I do think our education system could improve. A lot. Teaching critical thinking should be a required class in high school or before. It doesn't matter if you're a plumber or a rocket scientist. Critical thinking is vital. Financial courses should also be required. I helped a co-worker/friend get herself out of credit card debt. Help in advice, not giving her money. I was astounded at how little she understood about basic finance. This is a grown woman working in the financial industry. Astounded!

"Financial courses should also be required."

My state passed a law that requires 1/2 credit of financial literacy course for high school.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

I absolutely agree that critical thinking and financial literacy are crucial. However, critical thinking goes against the very nature of most people, who refuse to budge from their comfort zone, and that's true for 8 or 16 yo kids as well.

As for the need for financial literacy, people usually wake up to it only after getting themselves into big trouble. People mostly learn from their own experience, not from getting preached at. People need to get hurt in order to learn, and even then they don't always do. It's life that teaches you critical thinking - or not, as the case may be. And it's life that makes you change your financial behaviour - or not, alas.

School can't replace the school of real life, so yes, the three Rs are enough as a compulsory requirement. Instead of proceeding on the assumption that every kid is a potential rocket scientist until proven otherwise, it's better to proceed on the assumption that every kid is a tradesperson until proven otherwise.

I'd dismantle the current education system and set up a system that would provide the basic three Rs, and then cultivate, on the basis of merit, only kids with proven academic potential. At the same time, this system would offer free evening classes to those tradespeople - no matter their age - who end up deciding at some point that they need or wish to go further than the three Rs.

" a system that would provide the basic three Rs, and then cultivate, on the basis of merit, only kids with proven academic potential. At the same time, this system would offer free evening classes to those tradespeople - no matter their age - who end up deciding at some point that they need or wish to go further than the three Rs. "

Yes indeed. This is how most of the education systems operate in Western Europe. One difference is that those who seem less capable and less inclined to pursue advanced academic content are directed to a different track where trade skills of their interest and choice can be pursued. Not night classes but daytime schools as before. Very impressively, in most countries, the non-academic tracks include internships and significant on-the-job apprentice experience. Businesses larger than one-horse shops, and sometimes even those, are obliged by law to accept students for periods of time.

These programs work. Countries with this approach to education have properly trained and competent tradespersons. Not like how things are here.

This is yet another thing about which we are puzzled and frozen in inaction, thinking we alone have this intractable problem of directing and educating new people for the trades. Not the case, other countries have identified and solved the challenge while we continue to flounder.

"People need to get hurt in order to learn". That has to be the most depressing and horrific philosophy of education I have ever come across. I'm really glad it's complete nonsense.

floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK

floral, try again. You've taken part of a sentence out of context and distorted my meaning, which is that people learn life lessons the hard way. I assure you I don't believe the teaching of the three Rs requires cruel and unusual punishment.

"As for the need for financial literacy, people usually wake up to it only after getting themselves into big trouble. People mostly learn from their own experience, not from getting preached at. People need to get hurt in order to learn, and even then they don't always do. It's life that teaches you critical thinking - or not, as the case may be. And it's life that makes you change your financial behaviour - or not, alas."

It did not happen in my family, but in some families financial literacy is taught (no hurt required) with explanations, allowances, savings accounts, shopping with parents, and talking about pitfalls in finances. Of course that does not guarantee that finances will never go astray, but I do think many people learn from their families.

I disagree with your comment, wintercat. Financial literacy and all kinds of knowledge that needs to be commonly known (the term, "common sense") can be taught. Should be taught. Critical thinking is one tool that can be used for self-education too.

The curricula of better schools are based on working toward a developed, written down, and communicated "planned outcome" of graduates. This is one of the requirements in my area of accreditation and sadly some schools keep it filed away, not really using it and not distributing it widely so that students and parents know what the programs and their years of study are expected to result in. The planned outcome.

My kids benefitted from (or suffered from) having a father with a career in the world of Finance. Each went away to school and the familial money link involved each having a checking account, credit card, and their preparation of monthly budgets (major expenses needed pre-approval) and monthly expense reports. It wasn't hard (though each griped at the front end), it didn't take much time, and they learned confidence and competence in handling money. The other interesting phenomenon is each realized that the way to have money for activities needing no disclosures to parents was to have a summer job. No need for me to suggest it, the consequence was something figured out on their own. Or from the sibling communication system.

I still disagree, wintercat. It's perfectly possible to learn life skills without having bad experiences. Good examples, good advice and basic common sense will do it. Plenty of people deal efficiently with their finances without ever 'getting into big trouble.'

Wintercat, you initially did not say that some kids can get taught financial literacy. You made an absolute comment that hurt is required, it is not.

. People need to get hurt in order to learn, and even then they don't always do. It's life that teaches you critical thinking - or not, as the case may be. And it's life that makes you change your financial behaviour - or not, alas.

" I also think you were lucky to have kids who were receptive to your guidance. "

That was developed, not just something that happened. The time to establish respectful, useful and mutually-trusted relationships with your kids is before you need it. They need to appreciate the value of a parent's advice (not commands) on small things before being motivated to ask for or accept it on big things. Establishing crediblity.

My kids were and are a corral of free-thinking cats, not horses awaiting training. The challenge was to gain their respect and love as a person of authority without inhibiting their individualism. It is possible.

About your financial journalist colleagues, the frequently cited parable about the cobbler's barefoot children would apply. I can be accused of practicing "do as I say, not entirely as I do" at times too.