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kellyj0987

Kitchen Cabinets Sizes/Placement

kellyj0987
last month

I am struggling with cabinet size/placement on the “rangetop” wall.

To the right of the 33” double oven cabinet are the following:

wall cabinets 27”—42” (hood)—27”—36”; base cabinets 30”—36”—30”—36” (corner lazy Susan).

I can basically make any combination (within standard sizes) of wall and base cabinets—but what can’t change is (1) placement of the wall oven cabinet, (2) 42” hood size; 36” rangetop/cabinet; and 36” lazy Susan corner cabinet.

I could live with drawing as is (though I will likely swap the base cabinets for drawers), EXCEPT I do not like the 36” wall cabinet at the far right. It is much larger than the other wall cabinets, and it will require leaning across the counter to reach the knob/pull and then it will swing out to the left toward me and make it difficult to access the contents of the cabinet. So the path of least resistance would be to swap out the 36” cabinet for a 12” and a 24” or a 15” and a 21.” That way I could easily access the contents in the 12” or 15” cabinet (will likely use for spices, etc.) because that door would swing open to the right and then the 24” or 21” end cabinet would be for storage/infrequently used items. Not sure if a 12” would look too “matchy” because it would be directly above the 12” lazy Susan door on that side? Or if 15 would look odd ending over the counter?

Aesthetically, I do like that the base cabinets (I may switch for drawers) on either side of rangetop are symmetrical, but if anyone thinks base cabinets should be different, I’m not opposed to moving the rangetop over to the right. I have 60” to work with because because of the 36” rangetop cabinet and 36” lazy Susan. (The only other consideration is that on the sink side adjacent to the lazy Susan is a dishwasher. If the dishwasher is fully open I don’t want to block the front of the rangetop/cabinet, so the rangetop can move to the right but the right side of the rangetop can’t be further over than 51” from the right side wall (24” plus 27” from counter.))

Would definitely appreciate opinions on best sizes/placement. Thank you!


Comments (32)

  • millworkman
    last month

    A floor plan with all dimensions will help you get advice. The "3d elevation" helps but too much missing info with that alone.

    kellyj0987 thanked millworkman
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  • kellyj0987
    Original Author
    last month

    Didn’t include this because the dimensions on the hood and cabinets on either side of hood are not correct. (48” should have been 42” and the cabinet widths on either side should have been 27”.)


  • Cookie Montgomery
    last month

    The worst advice I got during my remodel was " all drawers". You need to review what you need to store. I have large soup pots that I use weekly in the winter and they don't fit in a drawer and it's annoying that I have to store them in my garage.

    kellyj0987 thanked Cookie Montgomery
  • PRO
    Patricia Colwell Consulting
    last month
    last modified: last month

    I do not inderstand all the options from those pics .If youpost a to scale floor plan here with all windows , doorways and measurements all clearly marked you might get some really good free advice from actual kitchen designers not cabinet sales people .All those base cabinets should be drawers and size designed to hold all your pots and pans near the cooktop. Symmetry in a kitchen is not always possible but what you show is just OFF and for no reason that I can see.Post the plan here in jpeg format do not ionclude any appliances but if plumbing is hard to change show thta .Post in a comment DO NOT start another post.

    kellyj0987 thanked Patricia Colwell Consulting
  • PRO
    JAN MOYER
    last month
    last modified: last month

    This isn't a huge kitchen.

    You have a range top! Get a full range. Left and right on lower cabinets? Use DRAWER bases for pots and pans. Need a second oven? Fine, but combine it with the microwave location. We're not even seeing the fridge!

    I have a personal distaste for lazy susans- barely accessible and a pain in the you know what.

    From one elevation you are showing in a small space? I could build a good argument for a 30" range and 36 inch hood and the last thing you really want is a dishwasher between your cook and the sink. Can't advise as we have not got the full wall, window, everything dimensions .

    Provide that, and get more and better help. Include whatever is adjacent to kitchen....entry exit what room etc. A scaled drawing with every single foot and inch: ) and upload as a jpeg

    kellyj0987 thanked JAN MOYER
  • PRO
    Minardi
    last month
    last modified: last month

    You need a range, not a big old tall wall oven stuck in the middle of a cabinet run, making everything in the kitchen awkward looking and less functional. That little peninsula with bar stuff in it will never get used to gaze into the other room. Get rid of it. Or put up a wall, so you can have more storage.

  • kellyj0987
    Original Author
    last month

    Sorry—this was my first ever post and in an effort to just focus on my area of concern, I only included the range area. (Opposite the range wall is around 16’ of cabinets (two 36” pantries (depth 21”) with wall and base cabinets (base depth 18”) between them and opposite the sink wall is refrigerator and microwave and about 5’ of wall and base cabinets. So I am just trying to maximize the usable upper cabinet space near the range for cooking but not have it not look odd or have to be awkwardly reaching to access it.

  • PRO
    JAN MOYER
    last month

    You can't get the best help without the full context. Are the appliances purchased and on site?

    It is not showing the FULL context, despite it is "what you asked", and we realize that. But often, and since you probably don't do twenty kitchens a year? You may not know or see something we DO.

    It isn't to annoy you, it's your kitchen.....but. : )

    show the whole.

  • petula67
    last month

    Me too, Cookie Montgomery! I followed the “all drawers” advice, and I really miss my roll-out tray shelves for pots and pans.


    To the OP, I think you’re correct that access to that 36” cabinet would be awkward, but not sure that two narrower cabinets is the best solution. They can be so limiting that interior space gets wasted.



    kellyj0987 thanked petula67
  • PRO
    JAN MOYER
    last month

    It depends the depth you make the drawers? It depends if you have a pantry for super sized pots and other bulky like a huge roasting pan?

    It depends how you cook and what you cook and how often. It depends a lot of things.

    But to say that a deep drawer is inconvenient?

    Make them as you like...




    kellyj0987 thanked JAN MOYER
  • AnnKH
    last month

    My Mom and Dad built a house in 1977 that had ROTS in one cabinet, containing pots and pans. In the 40 years that they lived there, the shelves were only pulled out a handful of times (usually just to clean). They were inconvenient because one had to open both doors to pull the shelf out.

    I always advise people to make a kitchen storage plan for their things, the way they use the kitchen. Some things are universal: store things near their point of use, don't put rarely used items in the most convenient spot, don't put the DW in the prep zone if you can possibly avoid it, don't make an island a barrier between fridge and sink.

    Corners are a whole can of worms. I love super susans (better than lazy susans) for a lot of things: in our last house, it was near the sink, and used to store small appliances and colanders. In our current house, it houses canisters of dry goods (flour, sugar, rice, etc). But our last house had 2 corners, and one was in the prep zone. The kitchen was small, and the only way I could get more drawers was to make a dead corner, with drawers on each side. Having very functional storage right where I needed it was far more important than trying to utilize the "wasted" space in the corner.

    Kellyj, can you tell us why you want such a large cooktop, two dishwashers, and two ovens?

    kellyj0987 thanked AnnKH
  • kellyj0987
    Original Author
    last month
    last modified: last month

    I cook every day and often also for family/friends using very large pots and pans and they just do not all fit on top of a 30” range. Two dishwashers for the same reason—by the time I put all the prep dishes into the dishwasher, the regular dishes from serving/eating have no room and then have to sit in or around the sink until the dishwasher is done. (Back injury prevents standing over sink and washing by hand. Back injury is also reason for wall oven rather than range—don't have to bend so far.) I know I need two ovens and I didn’t want one gas and one electric because of the difference in preheating and cooking times or temperatures.

    There was an error in the drawing on the corner opposite the lazy Susan corner (walls are not in the correct place and don’t line up) so I didn’t include the whole kitchen. The innacurate drawing would have sparked a million questions and I was just trying to focus on the best cabinet sizes and layout for the range area.

  • Buehl
    last month
    last modified: last month

    "All drawers" does not mean all 3-drawer stacks with the same sizes throughout the Kitchen. It means that once you have a functional layout "finalized", you then work on a "storage map" to determine what you need to store in each location. Then you determine what type of cabinets should go in that area as well as their configurations and sizes.

    You can have different configurations: one drawer (probably not very functional), two drawers, three drawers, four drawers. They can be different sizes (height). (Their width is determined by the width of the cabinet box.)

    For example: I have a 4-drawer that contains silverware on the top, then wraps/foils/baggies, then electrical items (extensions cords, etc.), and, in the bottom drawer, bread.
    Note the different heights.



    Under my cooktop, I have two 36"W drawers that fit all my pots & pans. My largest pot is 12 qts, which is probably true for most people, so it's probably shorter than what a few might need. If that's the case, then have a deeper drawer to accommodate it - measure it to determine what you need.

    You can see on either side of the cooktop that I have different depth bottom drawers.

    (BTW...I would NOT do the 6" filler pullouts flanking the cooktop again, it turns out they're not as useful as I thought they would be. But, I was trying to "fix" one of the many measuring mistakes my KD made (long story).)



    I do have one with ROTS (roll out tray shelves). It's a bit of a pain to use b/c I have to open two doors to access it and if I don't open it fully, the ROTS will hit the door as it's pulled out. I meant to make it similar to a trash pullout, but I forgot.

    It's our Pet Center -- dog food in the large can & treats in the small. Leashes, wipes, etc., are in the ROTS above the cans. The top drawer is for batteries, flashlights, etc.


    kellyj0987 thanked Buehl
  • chicagoans
    last month

    I measured my largest pots, skillets, and other big items during my design phase and as mentioned above got drawers to fit. I find things much more easily in drawers and that means I’m more likely to use everything instead of just using what’s on top/easiest to find on a shelf.
    First picture is 36” wide lower drawer, deep enough for my tall stock pot. Second is 30” wide and fits all my Pyrex type cookware. Third and fourth are a 36” wide upper drawer that includes a pullout for utensils etc. Just sharing to show how flexible your drawer storage can be.

  • Buehl
    last month
    last modified: last month

    Oh, meant to mention in my previous post that if possible, arrange storage so you don't have to stack different items very much. The fewer things you have to move around to retrieve something, the happier you will be. That includes pots & pans. I like to store the lid with each pot/pan so I'm not looking for the match. Even when lids are stored vertically in an organized manner, you still have to look for the right one. When they're stored together, there's no looking for matching lids.

    Below are examples of what i mean...one is an upper cabinet and one is a drawer. In my old Kitchen, I had my foils, baggies, etc., stacked on a shelf inside a cabinet (it was a builder-grade Kitchen with only "top" drawers) and I had to constantly move things around to get to what I wanted. In my new Kitchen, I made the drawer for those items fairly shallow so nothing is stacked but the drawer is wide enough (24" cab) to fit everything. It's so easy to get what I want!

    Drawer:


    Inspiration photo I used for my Kitchen:


    [JamesK's Kitchen]

  • PRO
    Patricia Colwell Consulting
    last month

    I start every kitchen design with a long list from clients about what needs to be stored how they cook and how many people cook usually together . I love all drawers for base cabinets you can even have them under your sink. They are just better always. The drawers can be many depths to fit what ever you have to go there .Take your pots and lay them out on a counter one layer with lids on top ofeach pot then see how wide the drawer needs to be I do stack fry pans BTW. I store all my pspices and I have many in a drawer where the lids have the lables and all visible at one time . Kitchen design is a science and no one size fits all. Every kitchen I have ever designed is nothing like another .Get a really good independant KD then you will get what you need

  • kellyj0987
    Original Author
    last month
    last modified: last month

    Thank you, everyone. This post has been very helpful in terms whether I should go with drawers versus roll outs for storage of pots and pans and ensuring I can fit everything. But I am still struggling with the range area cabinet upper and base cabinet widths. I definitely don’t want that 36” upper on the end.

    I am taking down the wall between my kitchen and dining room (opposite the range) and “losing” my 32”, 31”, 47” (has doors like it is a 31“ and 16”) upper cabinets where I keep all my daily use plates, bowls, glasses, etc. (There will be plenty of cabinetry on the wall opposite the range, but that’s too far from dishwashers.) I am definitely not going to be able to fit everyday items in the two 27” cabinets adjacent to range hood on the drawing. So I now think I would rather go with 33”—42”hood—33”—24” uppers, which would then make the base cabinets 36—36”(under rangetop)—24”—36” lazy Susan (which would show just the 12” door panel next to the 24” base.) That would make the range centered between the wall oven cabinet and the counter corner where lazy Susan opens. I am also considering 36”—42”hood—36”—18” uppers, which would then make the base cabinets 39”—36”(under rangetop)—21”. Just trying to figure out what looks the best.

  • TDinNC
    last month

    @chicagoans - can you share where you got the black peg mat pictured in your photos? They look much more useful than the screw-in wood pegs I had in my last kitchen. Thanks!

  • Buehl
    last month

    Regardless of whether you go with drawers or Roll Out Tray Shelves (ROTS)...

    Must have: Be sure they are full-extension, not the 3/4 that's common in lower level cabinetry. This will allow you full access to the contents and prevent scraping your knuckles on the frame/drawer/ROTS above when trying to get something from the back. Honestly, the no longer scraping of my knuckles was the biggest pro for me when we re-did our Kitchen! Yes, I also really like the full-access, but no more scraping! 😊

    Nice to have: Self-close. This means the drawer/ROTS will automatically close when it reaches a certain point - there will be usually be an audible click as it snaps closed.

    Nice to have: Soft-close. Instead of a "snap" when the drawer/ROTS closes, it closes smoothly and softly. This not only prevents people from slamming drawers, it also protects the glide hardware over time from abrupt/hard closing. Actually, I might consider not getting soft-close for ROTS b/c the slight delay in closing (as the ROTS is gently closed) means having to wait to close the door(s).


    FYI...drawer boxes & ROTS are generally the same size width & depth wise. The differences are in the wall heights and the fact that drawer boxes attached to the drawer front.


    ============


    "...drawers versus roll outs for storage of pots and pans..."


    Drawers:

    Pros:

    * One smooth motion to open, one motion to close. No worries about whether a door is fully opened/closed.

    * Items remain "captured" inside the drawer, no worries about handles or other parts of an item sticking out and hitting the frame of the cabinet.

    * Items won't fall off the sides, the drawers' sides are all full height so things are kept corralled.

    * You only have to open them far enough to get what you want. If the item is in the front of the drawer, you only have to open it part way.

    Cons:

    * Not adjustable. But, if you know what you're going to store where, you can plan for the ideal drawer for your needs height up front.


    Personally, I like the look of drawer bases better than all doors...this is a personal preference and has no bearing on functionality one way or the other.


    Roll Out Tray Shelves (ROTS):

    Pros:

    * Adjustable, usually. (However, once you pick a spot, they are rarely moved again - so measure your drawer height needs up front.)

    Cons:

    * If you have framed cabinets (most common in USA), the handles can get caught on the frame when pulling out and/or pushing in the ROTS. This can cause dings on the cabinet's frame.

    * If you have frameless cabinets, the handles can get caught on the cabinet wall when closing the ROTS, causing dings on the outside of the cabinet wall.

    * If the doors are not opened completely prior to pulling out an ROTS, the ROTS hits the doors and dings them (I know this from personal experience! *sigh*)

    * Items can fall off and over the shallow sides. Some come with higher sides, but if you're going to go that route, just get drawers!

    * If the ROTS is not completely closed when you close the doors, the doors will not close completely. You will need to re-open the doors, push the ROTS in the rest of the way, close the doors.

    * Opening/closing requires multiple "movements": Open one or two drawers, pull out ROTS once you're certain the doors are open completely; Push in the ROTS to close, close one or two doors after you're sure the ROTS is completely inside the cabinet, close one or two doors.

    * Doors have to be opened all the way to get to even the contents in the front of the ROTS


    ============


    Older threads that might be useful:

    Discusses drawer or ROTS for pot & pan storage: https://www.houzz.com/discussions/2469886/cabinets-drawers-or-doors


    https://www.houzz.com/discussions/2502678/drawers-over-pull-outs-in-cabinets

    https://www.houzz.com/discussions/2699850/cabinet-drawer-vs-door

  • Buehl
    last month
    last modified: last month

    If you post a fully-measured layout of the ENTIRE space (not just the cabinets) and a sketch of the entire floor the Kitchen is on, you'll get better help. Without seeing everything, including the surrounding areas, it's a guess at will/will not work. Others have asked for the same in earlier posts.

    Maybe this will help:

    See the Featured Answer in the "New to Kitchens? Read Me First!" thread: https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5972404/new-to-kitchens-read-me-first-2020-interim

    If you have no intention of making any other changes, regardless of pros/cons (issues) with the proposed layout, then advice has already been given: Create a Storage Map of what you plan to store there and then plan your cabinets accordingly. Remember it's best to store items at their point of use, not half way across the Kitchen.

    To give you an idea of how to do it, my Storage Map is below:




    Note: When we replaced our radiant electric cooktop with induction last year, I lost the top drawer under the cooktop, so I did need to re-arrange things a bit.

  • AnnKH
    last month

    Buehl, you have the best storage map ever! Mine is less detailed, but every drawer/cabinet has a purpose, and everything has a place. For example, I lump "cooking utensils" together, but I know what needs to go in that drawer. I also am a big fan of custom dividers in flatware and utensil drawers - it's so nice to not have to dig through a jumble of handles to find my favorite spatula.

  • chispa
    last month

    Why is the sink cabinet pulled forward ... but the sink is shown sitting all the way back?

    Shifting the sink cabinet forward is usually done to give you more room behind the faucet, but the sink also gets moved forward. Leaving the sink all the way back, with the cabinet pulled forward gives you a really fat front rail .... which will be terrible for anyone with back problems.

    kellyj0987 thanked chispa
  • kellyj0987
    Original Author
    last month
    last modified: last month

    I unfortunately don’t have an accurate layout, which is why I haven’t included one.

    I just wanted to make the range area look as nice as possible—within the parameters of (1) the wall ovens staying where they are, (2) there being a 42” hood and a 36” rangetop, and (3) apparently a highly controversial 36” lazy Susan.

    Though everyone’s thoughts on pots and pan storage are certainly helpful, I will have sufficient storage, so my only real focus for that area was just aesthetics.

  • chicagoans
    last month

    ETA the IKEA pegboards have multiple pieces for the bottom that fit together. For my 36” drawers I merged a couple of sets to get the right width.

  • TDinNC
    last month

    @chicagoans thank you so much for the links and photos. It’s so helpful!

  • HU-519768676
    last month
    last modified: last month

    You are struggling with the range wall layout because it is a poor design with that tall oven cabinet in the middle of the run. The whole layout needs changing, as a whole. Taking walls down is not helping you here. It is hurting you.

    Post a clear measured diagram of what exists now. With the walls.

  • Monique
    last month

    You can never achieve asymmetrical balance with that layout. The oven cabinet needs to go elsewhere.

  • kellyj0987
    Original Author
    last month

    There is no other place for the wall ovens and the wall ovens are not in the middle of a run. The wall starts 3” to left of the wall ovens. The opening to the left above the beverage fridge has always been there—it is a pony/knee wall to the left of which is a step down into the family room. It’s not new construction. It’s been like that more than half a century. The walls opposite the range and sink don’t have the depth for wall ovens. I’m just going to increase the upper cabinet size 6” and center the range between the wall oven and lazy Susan front corner.

  • petula67
    last month

    @kellyj0987 Thanks for starting this thread. I’ve been enjoying the suspense as kitchen hawks circle overhead but are denied the tasty morsel of your full layout.

    On subject of uppers - if the last one over the lazy susan were doorless, it might help with visual balance and also be easier to access. As an added benefit, open storage in the kitchen is another topic that whips up passions.

    kellyj0987 thanked petula67
  • kellyj0987
    Original Author
    last month
    last modified: last month

    @petula67 Didn’t even know you could @ someone until now. I don’t blame you—my mind is blown by how what I believed to be a straightforward request morphed into this. 🤪 I think maybe two responses even mentioned the 36” cabinet area.

    Similar to your doorless suggestion, I did consider open shelves for aesthetic purposes, but I’m losing a bunch of uppers when I take down the wall and as a tall person with a bad back (and nothing pretty to display), I’m trying to keep as many of my uppers as possible.