You have an opportunity to purchase a heat pump now and not have your hand forced to do that at some future date when gas is either unaffordable or unavailable.

Charles you argue one thing without talking about the previous elephant? The heat pump you buy now is going to operate with R410a refrigerant, that is in the process now of being banned.

Then you previously suggested to reverse engineer the product and use R470a that while better than R410a GWP numbers still will not likely escape the wrath of said government working their way into your entire life telling you what to do and how to do it. Not even the EPA is going to allow R470a for long given their roadmap starting in 2025.

So you go heat pump route or not you'll spend more money ripping it out and redoing it all again. Then after 2035/ 2036 the fun will begin again for some other refrigerant.

If anything it doesn't look pretty if you live in Calfornia. Maybe the rest of the US if Gavin is elected President? TBC.

The heat exchanger in old furnaces can develop cracks and possibly allow CO to enter the home. A tech can do a inspection for cracks. Be aware some HVAC outfits will try to use scare tactics to try to sell new equipment.

It will be interesting to see if houses in California with gas appliances become more or less desirable as bans begin. The laws of economics would predict less demand for natural gas will cause prices to decrease, and more demand for electricity would prices to increase. However the California legislature can apply taxes on energy as needed.

@Austin Air Companie,

Whether the OP chooses a heat pump or air conditioner and gas furnace, they'll have to deal with R410A--just like thousands of other homeowners across the U.S. They've got 10 years before it will be a major issue. The ban on new natural gas furnaces in California is only 7 years in the future.

You claimed the OP's only option in the event they need replacement refrigerant is reclaimed refrigerant. That's clearly not the case for R410A since R470A is currently available. I did not advocate converting a new R410A system to R470A. If the OP's system needs replacement refrigerant, they can run the numbers and choose whether it is more economical to use R410A or convert the system over to R470A at that time.

You claimed the OP's only option in the event they need replacement refrigerant is reclaimed refrigerant. That's clearly not the case for R410A since R470A is currently available. I did not advocate converting a new R410A system to R470A.

No I claimed that due to possible costs (increases from now to later) may lead to a new replacement.

If a refrigerant is banned and more costly to the point that new equipment is cheaper with new refrigerant and those refrigerants are cheaper as well/ have a longer life -- why would you put your money into an obsolete air conditioner?

You claim R470a is currently available? not where I live. It's GWP already discussed is higher already than what the EPA is allowing in 2025? yes. 700 GWP vs 900 something for R470a

If R470a is 1 or 2% of the market / further cut off comes who is going to stock that in any quantity only to be stuck with it as time passes? R22 Freon I can still get, but not just anywhere. Those costs are going to rival a new air conditioner right now... but that new air conditioner again (r410a) is in a worse spot than R22 was in 2010. I couldn't make this up if I wanted to. They clever. In terms of chess it's a bold faced 'check mate' move and probably not sacrificing the "queen" to do it.

The state of California is what is mandating the reclaimed refrigerant which is dumb for a variety of reasons. I don't expect that rule for Texas and possibly other places... but there's rules coming that could affect things far greater than what I see coming even for Texas. Things like trackable & recycleable refrigerant drums. That would likely increase costs far greater than even I expect.

All they have to do is institute laws that do nothing but increase costs on top then apply taxes. Taxes like carbon neutral tax, the price would jump over night for anyone using a specific refrigerant over the EPA allowed 700 GWP. So it won't matter if it's R410a or R470a they both over 700 GWP. This happens in 2025. I know you missed it because I've said it multiple times already. It will be like the flipping of a switch at the stroke of midnight on Dec. 31, 2024. Unless someone with deep pockets decides to sue the government then it might get delayed for a bit... but 2030 is closing in and the world must be saved is what they claim they're doing for you. Even with that they missing the target by 5 years already... as 2035/2036 is when things get even more serious.

Once that carbon neutral tax is in place (at state level or other level) it will then force you again in 2035 /2036 if / when you spring a refrigerant leak and or need refrigerant for servicing AC equipment.

Again for what it's worth I discuss this topic as well in the cartoon you like to dismiss... that I've since called "FREON WARS" on my youtube channel. This is all about money... I give you bread crumbs to follow the trail.

Do it now, spend money... have problems in a few years 3-5, 8 years -- 10 years if you lucky... you spend more money. But 10 years from now is roughly 2034... that puts you smack dab in the middle of another planned obsolecence debate when they begin phasing out the new, new refrigerants that aren't available yet... even if you wanted them.

I don't know exactly what is going to happen, but from what I see it's nothing money won't cure. Are you made of money? (that's the angle)

This may refresh your memory, Ray:

"This means that in the near future, it will no longer be possible to buy virgin refrigerants, such as R-410A, R-404A, and R-134a, and reclaimed refrigerant will be the only option to service existing air conditioners and commercial refrigeration equipment."

"You claim R470a is currently available? not where I live." There's at least one dealer selling R470A in your home state of Texas, Ray. If you're in the market for some, you may wish to contact::

• Summit Refrigerants
  8541 East North Belt Dr Humble TX 77396

Humble is near Houston. I'm thinking the name alone may cause you to avoid it.

First off that quote Charles is for California. Not Texas. I don't think Texas will ever go down the path of California... let's hope not. (The need for this in California will be far greater, but again the 700 GWP target set for 2025 -- it's not likely California will allow a refrigerant with a GWP over that 2025 Target -- a target set to drop below 350 GWP by 2035 / 2036. I am merely parroting info here... from the Kigali Amendment to the Montreal Protocol that was signed by then President Obama...) It doesn't matter to me which refrigerant it is. I am licensed to work on all of them. It will matter to you due to cost.

Houston is large geographically. (You know everything is big in Texas)

It would take way too much time to drive clear across town just for Freon when I have 5 different distributors all within a few miles of my house. I live on far west side, Humble is far east side.

Where I live was intended to mean, the distributor(s) in which I currently buy refrigerant.

Due to EPA drop down to 700 GWP by 2025 it's not going to last long enough to use it.

But the builder would actually like to argue a point into the ground. That doesn't mean it's a good argument.

It doesn't matter to me which refrigerant they pick to allow to use. I am licensed to work on any of them. It's going to matter to you -- because of cost. (I don't do things or sell things for what I can buy them for.) My costs go up, so do you yours. The builder hasn't a clue which is hopefully obvious to him by now as much as it should be obvious to you (the home owner).

Yet another reason your builder isn't coming back after 1 to 2 years. They are in it to build it, not service it.

They haven't made an HVAC system yet that doesn't require servicing.

Ray,

First off, I think a drive to Humble would do you good. It's a wide, wide world out there and driving from one side of Houston to the other doesn't really qualify as a major journey unless you're making the trip on a moped.

With regard to R410A, it's use will be banned in newly manufactured systems effective in 2025. (If we don't have alternatives available, I would expect that date to move out into the future.) Production and consumption of HFCs including R410A will be phased downed--but not phased out entirely. EPA's final rule regarding HFCs is intended to limit global warming by a stepwise phase down (again, not phase out) of HFC refrigerant production and consumption to 15% of baseline by 2036. There is an allocation and trading program which assigns exchange values (EV) to various HFCs. EVs are equivalent to an HFC's global warming potential. The EV of R470A is less than half that of R410A which means you can produce/consume twice the quantity of R470A as R410A under the program with the same impact on global warming. Given that the thermodynamic properties and COP for both refrigerants are similar, that translates to twice the quantity of refrigerant and twice the amount of cooling compared with R410A. Another way to look at it is that you can phase down to 15% of baseline R410A production and consumption or the equivalent of 30% if you switch to R470A.

Houzzers who are interested in the subject and want to get information from the original source and not a politically-slanted commentary can click the following links to EPA information:

https://www.epa.gov/system/files/documents/2021-09/hfc-allocation-rule-nprm-fact-sheet-finalrule.pdf

https://www.epa.gov/system/files/documents/2021-11/hfc-allocation-rule-ev-fact-sheet.pdf

California's high electric rates make efficiency improvements a top priority. Solar could be an option, but consider your specific needs and plans.

Understanding the terminology is crucial when it comes to variable speed and inverter-driven AC systems. Seeking professional guidance from an HVAC contractor will clear up any confusion.

Selecting the right equipment matters, and performance is key for inverter-driven AC or heat pumps. I've heard good things about the Bosch IDS 1.0 and newer 2.0 models, which offer compatibility with various thermostats and precise control.

Let's keep sharing knowledge and experiences to help each other out.

Ray,

First off, I think a drive to Humble would do you good.

For 470a being so important to the goals of the EPA step down road map you would think that because Summit Refrigerants says they carry ALL refrigerants that you would expect to find 470A technical information there?

They list technical info for R22, R410a and a host of others... BUT?

R470A is absent from the list of refrigerants they carry. Charles Ross is known on this board for posting links that are mostly vapor ware... (this isn't anything different) I like to give him just enough rope so as to let him string himself up with it.

As it turns out I think Charles should take a drive to Humble... probably do you some good Charles. Give you time to think about your life choices.

Click to enlarge: can't find 470a on this list. (vapor ware)

Click to enlarge pic below: (no R470a at the inn... we're sorry the number you have dialed is either not working or has been disconnected....)

Link to Summit Refrigerants (refrigerants page)

Hi, Ray,

ComStar, the manufacturer of R470A, lists two locations in your home state of Texas. You can contact either source or the manufacturer directly. Here's a link:

https://www.lowgwpref.com/rs-53-r470a/#!

Hi Charles... I found some "wholesale pricing info" from July 2021. Inflation Joe has probably decimated this price listed in the pic below.

That price for R470a in 2021 is more than I can buy R410a for now.

Click to enlarge. (death grip on the wallet, spinkter muscle activate -- lol)

Prices going up. Want to gripe about price call Charles Ross Homes.

He said there's a miracle potion waiting for your poor R410a AC.

Ray,

The point of the side trip about R470A, which you've seemed to miss, is to let houzzers know there are currently, and will be beyond 2036, more refrigerant replacement options for R410A than just recycled R410A. Additional choices generally result in price competition which benefits consumers. The sky isn't falling and your fearmongering about R410A is just that.

Charles rules change on a regular basis. The GWP threshold prior to just recently was 750 GWP but EPA dropped it to 700 GWP.

You recently posted EPA docs. Can you please inform the board if the EPA listed R470a in any form you posted?

Money. It will solve all your problems. You can ignore what I say all you want. If that's what you want I have no trouble with that. You'll never be able to say Ray Austin didn't warn you.

Choose what you want to choose at your own peril. It makes no difference to me what refrigerant they pick. I am licensed to handle any and all refrigerants. (EPA Universal Certification)

Due to cost, it will matter to you (the silent home owner reading this possibly weeks or years later). I won't be back tracking any statement I've made here.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

Ray,

The global warming potential (GWP) ceiling of 700 applies to new systems manufactured after January 1, 2025. Neither R410A nor R470A meet that criterion, and I didn't state that either did. R470A is a suitable, drop-in replacement for R410A in systems which need total replacement of refrigerant. Its GWP is less than half that of R410A which means higher quantities can be made available under EPA's allowances and exchanges.

With respect to R470A being specifically named in EPA documents, it may not be. R470A is a blend of refrigerants. Regulation of blends is a function of their chemical components. Here's what the EPA document "Overview of Allowances and Exchanges" linked above and again here https://www.epa.gov/system/files/documents/2021-11/hfc-allocation-rule-ev-fact-sheet.pdf says:

"How do Exchange Values Work for Blends?

To import a blend containing one or more regulated HFCs, the importer will need to calculate an EV for the blend to determine the quantity of allowances needed. Only the components of the blend that are regulated HFCs under the AIM Act will be calculated into the EV for the blend. Any components that are not regulated HFCs (e.g., hydrofluoroolefins (HFOs)) do not factor into the EV of the blend."

Incidentally, R470A contains HFOs.

With respect to R470A being specifically named in EPA documents, it may not be. R470A is a blend of refrigerants. Regulation of blends is a function of their chemical components.

R410a is a blend and it's on the EPA sheet. (50% R32 / 50% R125) But yet R470a is absent from any list from the government? Is that what you are telling me Charles?

Do you not see a problem there?

The assumption is that you say there is "going to be" a substance to fix current R410a systems by retrofitting them to another substance that isn't even included on any form I am aware of.

It's not available anywhere... even the refrigerant suppliers you listed -- the info for it there is absent too. There is no current pricing info for it. (2023)

R410a has sky rocketed in price since that price form I included further up... but yet the price is cheaper still for R410a at those 2021 prices for R470a. (inflation Joe period began in 2021 did it not?)

Do you see a problem there? (cost) It will cost more because it is harder to make. There's 6 different gasses needed to make it. (some of those refrigerants are on EPA phase out list? yes.)

Some unknowns for R470a: fractionation.

[QUOTE]

What happens when refrigerant fractionation?Fractionation is the change in composition of a refrigerant blend because one (or more) of the components is lost or removed faster than the other(s). A larger difference between the pres- sures of the starting components will cause a greater difference in the vapor composition compared to liquid. [END QUOTE]

A refrigerant manufacturer is trying to sell a refrigerant with a limited time window. It's GWP is over 900. EPA step down target is 700 GWP Jan. 1, 2025. (no problem there)

Costs more? Yes, no problem there? -- see there is no logic here other than to disagree with me. Someone who actually does HVAC for a living. Let's not think about any of that. Think is the operative word here.

If fractionation occurs with R470a who is going to care? No one, except those who think this is going to work for longer than ??? (no one knows).

R470a contains 6 different gasses. Because of that it is harder to manufacture. Cost is directly tied to that problem.

Vapor Ware: It's good fodder for those who deal in Tomfoolery.

Cost is high now: It's only going higher for stepped down refrigerants. R470a will be included in that list. This isn't something that is going to enable you to avoid fixing leaks. More cost.

IF refrigerant prices (any kind not just R470a) hit $1500 per jug (25 lbs) --- that is most likely going to rival buying a new air conditioner with a different (hopefully cheaper) refrigerant.

IF the application is a chiller (big equipment) that costs big money? Yes, sure. But we're talking residential systems here that 99% of the time contain less than 20 lbs of refrigerant and cost a fraction of what a chiller would cost. That being said: the refrigerant choice you make has to be there when you need it otherwise what is the point? (Let's argue with Ray Austin, lol)

If cost is your motivating factor? R410a is it, right now. In Texas. I can't speak for other areas.

Incidentally, R470A contains HFOs.

R470A (also known as RS-53) is a zeotropic mixture consisting of 44 weight% R1234ze, 19% R125, 17% R32, 10% carbon dioxide, 7% R134a, and 3% R227ea. It is considered to be a replacement fluid for R410A. It has a molar mass of 84.43 kg/kmol.

HFC's included in R470a that are on EPA ban list: R125, R134a, R227ea, R32 also known as HFC-32. HFC's total: 46% all of these are on EPA ban list except for R32. The phase out for R32 will begin in 2035/ 2036. (By that time R470a will be a distant memory for the residential HVAC market.)

R1234ze is an HFO that was patented by Honeywell. So you paying $$ to Honeywell (cost).

carbon dioxide? it's what is known as the primary cause of global warming / climate change, ironically enough.

Incidentially R470a is considered a Zeotropic mixture.

Yes, Ray, R410A is a blend of refrigerants: R32 and R125. You may find it listed as "R410A" in any number of documents related to the HFC phase down. That's not surprising given that R410A was introduced in 1991 and is in widespread use in residential HVAC applications. You won't, however, find R410A listed in the text of EPA's Final Rule on HFC phase down (86 FR 55116) nor in the list of substances regulated under the AIM Act, (42 USC 7675.) You will, instead, find its (regulated) component refrigerants, R32 and R125 listed.

R470A was introduced in 2020. It is not a perfect refrigerant; it trades off lower global warming potential for other environmental impacts. Until we are able to utilize more environmentally-benign refrigerants, R470A offers a replacement alternative to R410A with similar performance, less than half the GWP, and a comparable purchase price.

how much does R470a cost? Where can you buy it?

You mention no solution to a problem with fractionation. Who cares? You don't care because you don't work on AC's do you?

You say it's available provide links that don't provide anything other than vapor ware.

R125 is on EPA's ban list.

Your argument is a futile one: You can't make R410a without R125 ( R410a without R125 it's called R32 which ironically enough is the next choice refrigerant, but equipment must be replaced.)

Nor can you make R470a without R125 as it contains 19% R125 in addition to other refrigerants that are also on the EPA's ban list. Without those other components as well as R125 it won't work... well we don't care it if works... lets just yickety yack for the sake of disagreeing with Ray Austin. LOL. Talk about futility.

Less than half the GWP of R410a but well above EPA's cut off target. --- costs more to make, costs more to buy. I've shown the 2021 price of R470a where's the August 2023 price?

Yeah Charles Ross fingers banging a keyboard got him into a big problem to over come. (He doesn't do AC so what do you expect, give him a break... his fingers got the better of him. Cooling envy... things that won't work versus those that will.) You want it to work don't you?

Let me remind the board as well as Charles: My definition of a solution is one that fixes the problem without creating new problems. Otherwise it's not a solution.

Ray,

While the manufacture of new systems with R410A will be discontinued after January 2025, R410A will continue to be manufactured and recycled, just at lower, regulated, levels according to a stepwise phase down schedule. Ditto for most other refrigerants (the production of some refrigerants like R22 is phased out limiting replacement refrigerants to recycled R22.)

If the average life expectancy of a heat pump or a/c system is 15 years, and the phase down of R410A production/consumption occurs over the period through 2036, I would expect the vast majority of systems to die of old age before they'll need to worry about lack of available refrigerant for maintenance purposes. In the interim, both R410A and R470A will be available for maintenance purposes.

I don't know why the folks in Houston who manufacture R470A won't answer their phone. But, we can't discount the possibility that they've seen your videos and blocked your telephone number.

If you need R470A and it's not available in your area, it can be ordered on line and shipped to your door in Katy, TX. The price of a 5 lb cannister of R470A at one such source is quoted at $187.95 vs. $189.95 for R410A https://frosty-freezeacproducts.com/ You may find either for less at another source, but the prices appear to be comparable.

The price of a 5 lb cannister of R470A at one such source is quoted at $187.95 vs. $189.95 for R410A https://frosty-freezeacproducts.com/ You may find either for less at another source, but the prices appear to be comparable.

LOL, this isn't a wholesale price. 5lbs is not likely to be enough for a single AC system. I buy refrigerant in 25 / 30 lb jugs wholesale prices.

You don't actually do HVAC for a living do you Charles Ross Homes? You buy your refrigerant in 5 lb. canisters? ha, ha, ha, ha.

3rd grade math Charles:

187.95 x 5 = $939.75 for 25 lbs.

R410a wholesale price (currently 2023) is NO WHERE near that. DIY more often than not over charge the system. I've ran 2 calls already this year in which the system(s) were over charged. (won't work)

If you actually did HVAC, you'd have wholesale price Charles. What you say is oh so telling. DIY run amok. That's a big problem in 2023, even bigger in 2024 and worse yet in 2025. TikTok may provide you some clues... lol.

What did I say about price: when it rivals $1500 a jug wholesale. Retail? it will be well over that in 2024 most likely. What happens in 2024? You haven't been reading the thread so reread it all over again. The price you pay for not paying attention to details.

Find another nail to beat Charles. (how you know it's a builder, everything looks like a nail.)

Ray,

I don't purchase refrigerants. You asked for help to locate a source which I did, albeit a source that ships smaller quantity cannisters than you like. Given the retail pricing of R410A and R470A is comparable (albeit costs from a single supplier,) I would expect wholesale pricing to be comparable as well.

While I can't predict the future, my guess is that R470A will be less expensive than R410A since twice as much can be produced/consumed under EPA's Allowance and Exchanges program. That's a powerful incentive for manufacturers to promote its use. If both alternatives are available, I'm betting the average houzzer can do the math and choose the more economical alternative.

...the manufacture of new systems with R410A will be discontinued after January 2025...

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe this is what the EPA has currently proposed based on enforcing a maximum GWP limit. It is currently not a federal law. Some states like California and Washington may have their own rules banning sales of new equipment within their respective borders.

@mike_home,

The AIM Act authorizes EPA to address HFCs by providing new authorities in three main areas:

1.) To phase down the production and consumption of phase-down listed HFCs

2.) To manage the phase-down listed HFCs and their substitutes

3.) To facilitate the transition to next-generation technologies through sector-based restrictions.

I don't believe that the Act precludes states from imposing more stringent regulations in support of the stated objectives and several have.

I agree the AIM Act gives the EPA the authority to phase down, manage, and facilitate the transition to HFCs. However so far it is in the proposal stage and won't move forward until codes allow these new refrigerants to be used safely in residential homes. Commercial buildings don't have this restriction since they are required to have safety features such as sprinkler systems, self-closing fireproof doors, fire alarms, etc.

Given where we are today, I don't see how the banning of residential equipment using R-410a will is feasible by January 1, 2025.

I think the biggest obstacle to the use of R32 is a building codes issue. My understanding is that the use of A2L refrigerants will be permitted in the 2024 International Mechanical Code. That said, there is a lag time between any updates to the IMC being reflected in a state's building code so there may need to be some work arounds developed in some states. For example, a state may permit new residential construction to be approved under a 2021 statewide building code with a modification to substitute the 2024 mechanical code for the current code. I believe here in Virginia, building officials are already granted the authority to permit such modifications.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe this is what the EPA has currently proposed based on enforcing a maximum GWP limit. It is currently not a federal law. Some states like California and Washington may have their own rules banning sales of new equipment within their respective borders.

EPA rule is minimum requirement. States can impose higher restrictions than that / not to mention not allowing the sale of certain items (like refrigerant(s)) or using special guidelines like only allowing reclaimed refrigerants at the state level as in the possible case of California. But California has flip flopped once already... so we don't really know until we're in the midst of it.

Jan. 1, 2025 is the EPA mandated time in which no new R410a equipment will be allowed. No dry shipped units like in the past with R22. Thinking you're going to cheat because you're in New Jersey or some other far flung location? Uh, no. 2025 is it as far as a minimum requirement goes. (right now Aug 2023)

Does this mean if you have an R410a machine now that they going to force you to replace it? No. It will come due to the nature of the repair when the machine breaks. (doesn't work). It will come down to cost to repair vs. replace it for a new system with new (hopefully cheaper) refrigerant.

*IF* R410a goes to $1500 a drum wholesale (retail even higher I don't sell stuff for what I can buy it for.)--

That money (freon money) is better spent toward a newer more efficient machine? 90% of repairs are electrical, so it depends on what is actually wrong. This job is done in person, not from a forum board. If your problem is due to a refrigerant leak? the leak must be repaired, then recharged with virgin refrigerant (where ever it comes from is irrelevant) if it's not virgin it could be contaminated with acids or other nefarious things. Cheap refrigerant is cheap for a troublesome reason in HVAC. (compressor failure is often directly related to the cleanliness of the refrigerant regardless of the type of refrigerant used)

If R410a goes to higher cost to compete with R470a? R125 is a refrigerant used to manufacture both of these two refrigerants. Other components in R470a are already expensive and will go further that route as time passes... reread the thread I've already given those clues.

The difference between these two Refrigerants (r410a & r470a) asside from manufacturing is the GWP ranking. R410a is over 2000 GWP / R470a is over 900 GWP (EPA minimum threshold is 700 -- both refrigerants lose in that scenario)

What we don't know: Taxes? There's been things tossed around in liberal circles to tax companies among possibly other entities a "carbon neutral tax". So *IF* they add a new tax to R410a -- that *could* make it more expensive than R470a over night. RIght now R410a is 1/3 the best price I can find for R470a, but the price does little for availability. So you want to pay 3 times more for R470a refrigerant? Call Charles Ross "I don't purchase refrigerants" Homes.

Also the problem of fractionation and R470a will likely cause enough problems with your current system that you opt for a new AC system after a long and steady heat wave. (or do without, complain, throw fits -- you won't blame me I've done my job here -- to inform you far, far in advance to what is coming to a hot house near you.)

Could this change? yes but not likely. If it does change maybe a year push back like they did from the 2023 deadline. The end of world if you listen to some of them talk -- is 2030. tick tock.

So if you want to take the "I don't purchase refrigerants" builder's word for it -- you do so at your own peril.

Kinda hard to do AC repair work without purchasing refrigerants? Kinda hard to install AC equipment without purchasing refrigerants? But this is the internet folks. Choose carefully.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

Ray,

There are considerable technical hurdles and costs to develop a new refrigerant. It's not something manufacturers undertake if there is no anticipated market demand. No refrigerant is perfect; there are trade off considerations including flammability, toxicity, operating efficiencies, environmental impacts, and costs among others.

Where a new refrigerant has received an ASHRAE certification, houzzers will be well served to trust the technical judgement of the the engineers and scientists involved in its development over the opinion of a HVAC replacement technician who never even completed a high school chemistry class.

GWP is what is driving it / higher costs are the result.

If the refrigerant costs nearly as much as a new AC unit with a different refrigerant?

Simple economics you'll buy a new AC with a different refrigerant. (The new refrigerants won't work with old equipment -- when I say new I am referring to those that are under the EPA threshold of 700 GWP)

Then in 2035 / 2036 we'll start a new phase out and ban of those. Manufactures far and wide are happy about these developments. -- They get to sell you new equipment like no one's business. You will not escape it. The title of this movie is:

"No Way Out" lol. job security 101 from someone who didn't take chemistry class. ha, ha.

From Charles perspective he can claim he's not a freon breather. Due to incidents beyond my control I can not claim that... wish the camera would have been rolling when that happened.

I'm glad everyone has had a chance to thoroughly debate refrigerant types.

Does anyone have opinions of side discharge vs top discharge units?

Would I be making a mistake to go with an inverter driven side discharge unit that may not be been as proven long term?

So far my best energy efficiency vs price is with a Lennox ML18CX2 AC single phase vertical discharge square unit - this vendor was in my top 2 favorites of 5 estimates

So far my quietest and even cheaper unit is with the Side Discharge Carrier 38MURA, slightly more expensive to go with the 34SCA5 (vendor says because the mfg is offering a discount on the MURA unit) This vendor was my top pick based on our discussions but his vertical units are more expensive with lower seer ratings than the Lennox option. The closest Carrier option is 1 SEER less efficient and $600 more expensive

Clearly I struggle with decisions.

We installed Carrier units in our homes for quite a few years. We stopped doing business with them about five years ago due to reliability issues. Our go-to choices are American Standard for conventional systems, Water Furnace for ground-source heat pumps, and Mitsubishi for mini-splits.

I'm glad everyone has had a chance to thoroughly debate refrigerant types.

Does anyone have opinions of side discharge vs top discharge units?

Would I be making a mistake to go with an inverter driven side discharge unit that may not be been as proven long term?

Zack, Side discharge could matter if there isn't room to blow the air. MFG's like to suggest that these units fit in tighter spaces, but the specs needed to get them to operate gets lost. (sure they may fit more easily but fail more often because of elevated entering air temperature of the condenser. If it's 100F out that air is considerably more warmer than 90-95F. and the air isn't being expelled properly to bring cooler air.

The hotter the "condenser air" becomes the less heat it will transfer. Transferring heat is essentially what an air conditioner / heat pump does. Heat is transferred from hotter to cooler, not cooler to hotter... meaning that to work right the entering air temp to the condenser must be lower than the air temp the condenser is trying to transfer. If you've ever put your head in an oven and tried to breathe? About the best way I can help you understand it without talking over you... if you know what I mean.

I've looked at the Gree Flex which is another side discharge machine and they recommend a good chunk of real estate "open area" to the front of that machine to expel discharge condenser air to. (failing to do that would be? "improper installation, warranty is void" kind of scenario.

Asside from that it won't make much difference in terms of the raging refrigerant phase out debate... when those problems come for your new machine what ever it is --- more or less the same predicament you are in now with R22 Freon.

If long term to you is maybe 8 years? Because by that time depending on what problems actually come your way? You may have harder decisions than what we know right now in the future. (Your future self should come here and warn us. LOL)

Upflow or discharge out the top AC condensers / heat pumps have similar requirements for expelling air -- so putting them in some where with restricted air flow "roof over hang" or some other air restrictive problem can void the warranty on those.

If it's mostly 85-90F with rarely a day over 95F -- This air temp transfer situation won't matter nearly as much if you have months on end at 95 with a few months more over 100F. (what it's typically like in my climate of Katy, Texas) That said your unit should still be "properly installed" not just slammed in because it's a deal of the century.

"Transferring heat is essentially what an air conditioner / heat pump does. Heat is transferred from hotter to cooler, not cooler to hotter..." If that were the case, we wouldn't have air conditioning in the summer, now, would we? A heat pump isn't a simple heat exchanger. A heat pump utilizes electrical energy (work input to the compressor) to transfer heat from a cooler space to a warmer space.

In case of a heat pump in heating mode what happens to 95% of them when air temps dip below 35F and temperature outdoor continues falling over night into the mid 20's. If you want to talk about heating operation you can't just "cherry pick" something out of the equation to argue about.

If the heat pump enters defrost mode? uh yeah it's running like an air conditioner in that mode to defrost the outdoor coil.

Plenty to argue about from Mr. Charles "I don't buy refrigerants dot com"

It still tranfers heat, doesn't change anything. In the case of a Heat pump performance goes down hill as temperatures drop. The colder it is, the less heat there is to transfer... why you think you have back up emergency heat for with a heat pump?

If you're gonna cherry pick -- watch out for the pits. LOL. (nice try though from someone who doesn't buy refrigerants.)

Ray,

You attempted to explain how heat pumps operate and it's clear you don't understand basic thermodynamics. Your explanation had nothing to do with low temperature operation or defrost mode. That said, it would be just as incorrect with regard to either.

Ok Charles since you know so much where does the heat from the heat pump in heat mode come from with no call for defrost or emergency heat circuit?

Where does the heat come from given the conditions above?

A heat pump transfers heat from a cooler space to a warmer space utilizing the refrigeration cycle to do so. In air conditioning mode, the cooler space is the home's interior. In winter, the cooler space is the outdoors. To borrow a phrase, "about the best way I can help you understand it without talking over you... if you know what I mean."

Charles, it's more technically correct to state simply that a heat pump transfers heat from one space to another, without specifying "from a cooler space to a warmer space." One space gets cooler only because heat is being moved out of it, but that doesn't mean it's always cooler than the other space.

Consider a building such as a concert hall with hundreds of people seated in the auditorium for a performance on a 40°F day or night. The room temperature rises to an uncomfortable level so air conditioning/cooling is turned on and heat is transferred from the warmer indoors to the cooler outdoors.

I worked at a movie theater for many years. I ran the auditorium HVAC on auto system mode with 69°F heat setpoint and 72°F cool (sometimes 71°F for the minimum 2°F differential). It wasn't unusual that heat would run at opening time after a chilly night, and the system switched to cooling later in the day when the body heat of a large attendance raised the room temperature (and people were coming in wearing jackets and coats due to the chilly outdoor conditions) ... thus moving heat from the warmer indoor (auditorium) space to the outdoors which was notably cooler. The lobby which included the concession area and all the heat it generated also often ran cooling on a cold day.

I agree that a heat pump can transfer energy in either direction; that's the fundamental difference between an air conditioner and a heat pump. And, with the work input to the compressor considered, it doesn't violate the laws of thermodynamics to do so.

Austin Air - Thanks for that helpful info. In my situation I have plenty of space for airflow - I can allow for 12" from wall (mfg recommends minimum of 8") and 10-12 feet in front of fan (mfg recommends minimum 20 inches). My preference for the slim unit vs the square is just to regain a little space in my small yard and to be a little less intrusive visually. I play fetch with my dog on this side of the house and an extra 12" of pathway makes a big difference in ease of passage especially because the current unit sits on the corner of my house. Additional benefit seems to be the inverter side discharge units are some of the quietest available.

Heat pump has become an industry term to differentiate a unit that can operate in reverse-cycle to put heat into a target space vs. the term air conditioner for a unit that operates in only one direction to remove heat from the target space. Both technically are heat pumps. The term heat pump was sometimes used for cooling/air conditioners in the early years, perhaps to differentiate them from evaporative/swamp coolers.

Yes, in thermodynamic terms both are heat pumps because they "pump" heat between different energy levels. But there's enough confusion in this thread already without introducing terms different from industry convention.

A heat pump transfers heat from a cooler space to a warmer space utilizing the refrigeration cycle to do so. In air conditioning mode, the cooler space is the home's interior. In winter, the cooler space is the outdoors. To borrow a phrase, "about the best way I can help you understand it without talking over you... if you know what I mean."

Heat transferred from cooler space to warmer space in heat pump mode.

What temperature is the refrigerant operating at in a heat pump running at various outdoor and indoor temperatures? (for someone who doesn't purchase refrigerant, this might be more in the line of 'rocket science')

click to enlarge

Using the refrigeration cycle?

Using chart above for 2.5 Ton heat pump: what is the temperature of the refrigerant in the heat pump outdoor section when in heating mode running at 20F dry bulb outdoor temp & 70F indoor?

Extra: What is the temperature of the refrigerant in the heat pump outdoor section when in heating mode running at 40F dry bulb outdoor and 70F indoor?

Extra, Extra: what is the temp of the refrigerant under both above scenarios for the indoor section of the heat pump running in heat mode at the above stated conditions?

it doesn't violate the laws of thermodynamics to do so.

You have to know the law first to claim what you're saying isn't in violation of it...

click to enlarge.

What did I say previously?

Heat is transferred from hotter to cooler NOT cooler to hotter.

It's the same from winter to summers. The rule is the same regardless of the season.

Ray,

In a simple heat exchanger, thermal energy is transferred from an energy source (at higher temperature) to an energy sink (at lower temperature.) In your example, no work is performed, so the heat transferred is simply the change in enthalpy. By contrast, heat pumps and air conditioners are systems which perform a thermodynamic cycle over and over. The refrigerant undergoes a change in phase from gas to liquid in the condenser and from liquid to gas in the evaporator. In both the condenser and evaporator, heat is transferred from the warmer stream to the cooler stream, as in your example. Those are two components of the system. A compressor is also part of the system which compresses the refrigerant gas and moves it through the line set and coils. It is the use of the refrigerant and the work input to the compressor (in the form of electrical energy) which enables heat to be extracted from a space at a lower temperature, say at 70F (indoors in air conditioning mode) and rejected in a space at higher temperature, say at 90F (outdoors in air conditioning mode.) Without the work input, the energy transfer from lower to higher temperature would violate the second law of thermodynamics. I'm sure there are plenty of internet videos on the refrigeration cycle if you want help.

Charles would you mind taking these arguments to PM? These side discussions/arguments are not helping me understand risks vs benefits of side discharge AC units or inverter compressor units.

Austin Air - Looks like Gree Flex requests 4" min from wall and 40" min in front of fan. The carrier unit has a larger distance from wall required behind the unit but only 20" required in front of unit. Regardless of mfg stated minimums, I hear you on giving as much space as possible for ease of cleaning and maintenance. I can't imagine giving up 30" of space from wall for a square or side discharge unit but I could probably get to 20" if that's highly recommended. That would put a standard square unit extending 5+ feet into my yard with a 31" square unit. My yard is only like 13 ft wide, so that would not be acceptable.

Sure, Zack,

Sometimes thread zig and zag. In light of the content of this one, I suggest you carefully consider whose "expertise" you rely on.

I'm trying to consider all advice with a grain of salt but only a few people have been providing much input on the questions I'm asking about and the majority of the discussions have been arguing over refrigerant and thermodynamics :)

Austin Air - Looks like Gree Flex requests 4" min from wall and 40" min in front of fan. The carrier unit has a larger distance from wall required behind the unit but only 20" required in front of unit. Regardless of mfg stated minimums, I hear you on giving as much space as possible for ease of cleaning and maintenance. I can't imagine giving up 30" of space from wall for a square or side discharge unit but I could probably get to 20" if that's highly recommended.

Zack, they (the mfg's) are mostly selling these as a tight fit solution. Why else do side fan discharge. Maintenance no matter how you do it will still need to be performed... but my goals in doing these things is to do them in ways to minimize expenses and potential trouble. I *never* recommend people to perform maintenance tasks themselves. (why I exist -- to do it for you. When that time ends -- you're not likely to find me on this board either.)

Many of these side discharge units have plastic condenser fan blades. Constant hot to cold and cold to hot? what does that do to plastic?

The closer the unit is to the wall the more likely and more faster does it get dirty. In the event of side discharge you see what I am getting at?

The Lennox Merit model you listed Lennox ML18CX2 AC is the lowest model series that Lennox makes. It's a cheaper 2 speed unit discharge out the top. Out the top discharge closer to the wall will get dirty faster on 1 side so 25% blockage vs likely 100% blockage for side dischage. (The little reason why these side discharge units are designed to fail.)

The Carrier models 38MURA, slightly more expensive to go with the 34SCA5. The 38MURA model is inverter the 34SCA5 is single speed compressor. Both of these *appear to have* plastic condenser fan blade.

Inverter operation is greater than even the best of the best 2 speed AC's -- but keeping it clean is the challenge. Higher temps and inverter boards? Dirt insulates and temps only get hotter from there. Not good to have a plastic condenser fan blade either.

This is why my opinion is firmly in the camp of Bosch IDS 2.0 for inverter AC (Upside discharge).

Ray,

In a simple heat exchanger, thermal energy is transferred from an energy source (at higher temperature) to an energy sink (at lower temperature.)

Charles -- but you couldn't answer any of the questions I asked? I didn't ask for dribble did I?

You often claim this occupation isn't rocket science, now when we ask you to prove it -- excuses fly like the wind?

click to enlarge:

Using the refrigeration cycle?

Using chart above for 2.5 Ton heat pump: what is the temperature of the refrigerant in the heat pump outdoor section when in heating mode running at 20F dry bulb outdoor temp & 70F indoor?

I'll keep it really simple for you Charles -- answer the question (if you can)... prove to us it's so simple for you.

-----------------

Zack sorry for the side discussion it is what it is -- to keep this discussion informationally *TRUE*.

Austin Air - The Bosch IDS units were top of my list for a lot of reasons (efficiency, noise, ecobee compatibility, decent looking unit) alas the few Bosh dealers I was able to contact in my area both turned out to be pretty unknowledgeable on their products and minimally interested in actually selling them to me. I'm not personally partial to Carrier but the two installers I felt were the most knowledgeable, honest, and put in the time to help me understand my options happened to be Carrier dealers. The Lennox option was my 3rd place vendor but they had great price to efficiency offerings (understanding their Merit line is their lowest end product, it still offered 17 SEER) I get that my energy savings from 15 to 17 won't be significant, especially with only using AC 2 months a year anyway.

The SCA5 was high on my list for simplicity but after reading reviews about loud starting, I no longer feel like that's a good option for us.

I feel like the Daiken Fit with its best in class warranty (replace not repair) would be the perfect choice for a potentially less reliable design (inverter/side discharge) but their proprietary thermostat and lack of local dealers (turned out to be the same guys as the Bosch dealers near me, ironically).

Ultimately a quiet unit that allows me to sleep better is the most valuable thing to me in this equation, so spending more money up front, or spending more money long term with repairs is probably sort of moot.

I get the AC dilemma. We had a similar situation. We opted to hire a service (https://musiccityappliance.services/) to replace just the AC first since our heater worked fine, and it saved us some bucks. So far, it's been working well for us.

The 4-ton unit might be overkill for your space, and adding dual-zone cooling can get costly.