Steam oven & Speed oven overkill? Is plumbing the CSO worth it?

last year

Hi all!

We're building our dream kitchen as part of a whole-home remodel, and would like some advice on appliances – particularly ovens. My wife and I both bake & cook regularly – my wife tends to do a lot of day to day cooking, while I do larger projects more occasionally (e.g. beef barbacoa, lamb biryani, 3-layer cakes, complex breads) Both aesthetics and functionality are important to us – we're doing a Shaker style kitchen (similar to deVOL, but our contractor is doing the millwork).

We want a few things in our kitchen:

A range. We fell in love with Lacanche ranges, and so decided to get one, which rules out a cooktop. This is the one item we've already ordered.
A steam oven. We've heard great things, and are excited to use it for day to day cooking (steam vegetables, reheat leftovers, etc.), and big projects (baguettes, sous vide)
A microwave. We're South Asian cooking, and nothing is better for reheating curries.
A toaster oven. We use our Breville toaster oven a ton because it preheats quickly. We use it for things like warming up samosas, reheating leftovers, even baking a small batch of cookies.

So, we ended up speccing:

Lacanche Chambertin (Classique 3-burner set-up, with 2 induction hobs on the right). We picked this range mostly for the aesthetics – we love the enamel and brass. We've got an oven (small compared to, say, a Wolf range, but still large – 21"w x 12"h x 16"d), and a vertical warming drawer.
24" Gaggenau 400 series Combi-Steam Oven –we were originally going to go with the Miele, but we're not a fan of the PureLine aesthetics, and that's the only style the plumbed ovens come in. We'd prefer the ArtLine, but (1) it isn't plumbed (2) it doesn't come in 24".
24" Gaggenau 400 series Speed Oven – we don't need another oven but we need a microwave, and this is the only microwave that matches the Gaggenau steam oven. That said, we're wondering if the speed oven will preheat fast enough so that we don't need to keep the Breville toaster oven in our appliance garage any more?

All that said, this feels like over kill – especially the speed oven, since it's both (a) our 3rd oven (b) a $5600 microwave(!). I don't feel as bad paying for the steam oven, as it's a unique & useful appliance, but with the speed oven, it feels like we're overpaying for a microwave that's ultimately just made by Sharp... unless it can truly replace a toaster oven. Note that we still intend to have a 2-slice toaster for toasting actual bread, since nothing beats a toaster for that.

Given all this, I've a few questions for the group:

How much more annoying is the non-plumbed Miele steam oven? I've heard that the Miele makes you fill it up every time you use it, even if there's water left over – is that right? That seems annoying. If we forgo the plumbing, we can go with the Miele designs we like, and save $5000 (since they sell cheaper speed ovens than Gaggenau)
Can a speed oven replace a toaster oven? Does it preheat similarly quickly?
Should we just skip the speed oven, and put a toaster oven + microwave in our appliance garage? It seems like a shame to put our 2 most used appliances in a garage – curious to hear from folks who have an appliance garage, since we've never had one before.

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Comments (9)

cheri127
last year
We had a Lacanche in our last remodel and loved it. We bought ours before it had an auto shutoff for the gas if the flame went out so we were never able to get the simmer as low as wanted. That's not an issue now though. I baked some excelllent artisan bread and baguettes in that oven and loved the burners. We used a flame tamer for simmering. We had the Volnay and I can tell you that we never used the warming oven side in 12 years!

A steam oven is SUPERIOR to a microwave for reheating. I'm not kidding. Leftovers taste like they were just cooked. We had a Gagg steam oven and wall oven (in the same kitchen with the Lacanche) and it didn't feel like ovekill. The Gagg CSO was plumbed. We have a Miele steam oven and speed oven at the beach house and I really wish we had gone for a microwave drawer. Using the microwave function on the speed oven is cumbersome and if you're using the oven, you have no microwave. The steam oven is not plumbed and I don't find it too inconvenient but plumbed is better.

So, to answer your questions. Plumb the CSO steam oven. It can double as a toaster oven. Skip the speed oven; do a built in microwave instead. If budget allows, the Gagg CSO is better than the Miele IMO (cleaning mode, side opening door, less cumbersome controls).
V S
last year
last modified: last year
I don't have an answer for you, but am compelled to comment because of how similar a situation we are in. I am South Asian also, do a whole lot of cooking (albeit vegetarian) including how you put it: "big projects". Our shortlist also consists of either a Gaggenau CSO + Speed OveOvOveOvno , OR a Miele CSO + Speed Oven. Basically, other than the Lacanche (we're going for a full induction cooktop), our situation is the same as yours!

In both options, the Speed Oven has been chosen only to serve as an aesthetic match to the CSO, with the intention of only just using it as a microwave. And yes its like buying a $5-$6k microwave and never actually using the "oven" part of it. I feel like it's a waste.

Here are some thoughts I've been having so far -

* I do not want to deal with CSO water tanks. We have a Jenn Air steam oven in our other condo and while it's not all that cumbersome to fill the reservoir manually, I've always wanted to upgrade to a fully plumbed steam oven for the main house. Sometimes if I forget to drain the manual reservoir, it is standing/stale water in there for months (depending on when I use it next) and I'd like to avoid that situation. So, our CSO will be plumbed.

In both options, the Speed Oven has been chosen only to serveras an aesthetic match to the CSO, with the intention of only just using it as a microwave. And yes its like buying a $5-$6k microwave and never actually using the "oven" part of it. I feel like it's a waste. modern finish, we opted for the Thermador rather than the Bosch (which I believe makes all microwave drawers anyway) and I can no longer stand the fact that there is no backlighting on the buttons. It's been about 4 years and I still half guess the buttons that I press to operate the microwave because I can no longer be bothered to bend down to look closely at what I am pressing. We now have young kids and getting them to keep their fingers away when closing the microwave drawer causes anxiety. Finally, if you're like other south asians and have your parents/elderly folks visit you, they will hate you for making them use such a microwave :)

So all that is to say, I do not want a microwave drawer ever again. And I also think the speed oven is wasteful and overkill. So, I am curious to hear what others say and please also let me know what you decide!

I like @cheri127's idea of a built-in microwave of some sort and will look at that. It would be a shame to lose the classic Gaggenau aesthetic of the steam oven + speed oven combo stacked such that their operating knobs are next to each other :)

I will say, Miele thankfully has a microwave-only option without the speed oven stuff built into it - Miele - M 7240 TC AM Clean Touch Steel – Microwave Ovens (mieleusa.com) . At least the cost is a bit more palatable, but it has more basic controls (no M touch, etc.). I'm exploring this as an option if I decide to go Miele instead of Gaggenau.
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You can never have enough ovens. We have a 30" oven in addition to a 24" CSO and a 24" SpeedOven (incidentally, this is a wonderful combination). And still, there has been at least one meal, when I had to add a fourth improvised oven by using the gas grill on the deck. I also had to use a portable warming chest, and had to prepare a careful schedule for when to use which appliance. But then, I was cooking multiple courses for a gathering of more than 100 guests. Realistically though, 99% of the time, the combination of those two ovens should be enough. You might just have to do a little bit of planning on the rare occasions that you make huge amounts of food. But if budget is flexible, adding the SpeedOven wouldn't hurt. It's a good oven in its own right, and it can always serve as a great overflow option, when things get really tight. Is it mandatory? No, not at all? Will you enjoy having bought it? Yes, probably. It's a convenient luxury, if you regularly cook a lot.
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@JJ Mekai . Hi. For what it's worth, I decided on the Gaggenau CSO instead of the Miele. Three reasons. I preferred the two-knob controls -- which at first can be intimidating, but once you learn what's what, very easy to use. I knew I was not going to use the Miele pre-programmed recipes. The second reason was Gaggeenau having the broiler "under glass." As NYGuy says above, cleaning the broiler unit on the Miele would be a real pain. I took one of the Miele CSO classes; the instructor was touting her "invention" of wrapping a damp paper towel around a fork and sticking it every which way along the broiler element to clean it. I have read, though, that the new models have a detachable boiler unit for easier cleaning. Finally, I got a very good deal on a scratch-and-dent model that came with the complete warranty. That still made the Gaggenau more expensive than the Miele, but I got the side opening door and self-cleaning feature as well. Have been very happy with the choice, especially for baking bread and cooking veggies using steeam. Pizza also cooks well. When we've had lots of people over to make pizza, I put a pizza stone (not Gaggenau's version) on the bottom rack, heat the oven for an hour and then also use the broiler. Works as well as the regular oven, even without having bottom heating. Like anything new, there is a learning curve -- and I am still learning. My only regret is not getting the Gaggenau wall oven. There I went with the Miele purely because of price. It's been fine, but I miss the knob controls and the side opening door. As in so much of life, compromise rules the day!
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We were actually thinking of doing the same based on how we cook. One appliance store salesman said it was crazy to consider not putting in a wall oven (and even implied it was against code, which I don’t think is true), but we talked to 2 more salespeople from 2 other stores and they said “tons of people” are doing just that. And it wouldn’t be in their interest to not sell a wall oven, so I believe they were being honest about what they’re seeing from their customers’ recent builds. So we’ll probably do a 36” induction cooktop, 24” Miele speed oven, and 24” Miele XXL steam/combi oven. At least with Miele, going 30” is purely an aesthetic preference - the internal capacity of their 24” line is the same as their 30” until you get into wall ovens where the 30” is definitely bigger inside. May be an old school vs new school way of thinking. If you’re not thinking of selling anytime soon, I wouldn’t worry about resale considerations either.
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cheri127
last year
last modified: last year
I think Gaggenau makes a built in microwave that's not a speed oven. The oven door on the Miele speed oven is drop down, not side opening and the glass dish is diabolically expensive if it needs replacing. If you can stomach the cost of the Gaggenau, I'd recommend the Gagg CSO with self clean and the Gagg built in micorwave.
opaone
last year
last modified: last year
FWIW, we have 5 ovens and 2 warming drawers. They serve different purposes, all get used frequently and there've been more than a few times that all are in use simultaneously when we're preparing a multi-course meals for guests (and there've been a few times we'd like to have had one more oven).

CSO is used almost daily and we'd hate to do without it. Our least used function is microwave.

More: https://bamasotan.us/2020/12/the-kitchen/
huruta
last year
For the last 12 years, weve had a similar set up…Lacanche Volnay and Gaggenau cso. have loved both. I also dont think you need a speed oven, Ive never wanted one. The smaller size of our Lacanche oven meant that preheat was speedy. I often called it a speed oven because can go from a cold oven to roasted veg in 30 minutes. Gagg is similarly quick to heat up. Never regretted getting a plumbed version. We had a regular toaster (a toaster oven woukd have been nice) and microwave tucked away in a cabinet. Don’t use microwave much.

We are moving next week to a new home which has a 36” Bluestar…I think I’ll like the burners, but I’m skeptical about speediness of the oven. I feel in love with the Lacanche oven. I will miss our Lacanche and Gagg, but oh the views in the new home!
huruta
last year
Our microwave was put in a cabinet that we put an outlet in. Lived that it was out of site. We put plug-ins in pantry too and had coffee grinder, toaster, and water pitcher heater in there. loved that our counters had little on them. A 5.6k microwave seems wasteful, but thats just my opinion. sounds like youll have an amazing kitchen!
huruta
last year
Excited to have a sparkling water and hot water dispenser in new home, and a second sink. Has a sharp microwace drawer so will see what that is like
V S
10 months ago
last modified: 10 months ago
Since we were in a similar situation, we ended up deciding to get both - the Gaggenau Combi-Steam and the Combi Microwave ovens in 24". We justified the high cost of the Combi-Microwave by forgoing a regular oven. Now, both appliances we are getting can provide basic oven functionality with enough combined cavity space for our needs and I've come around to no longer looking at the Combi-Microwave as a 5-6k microwave, but as a partial replacement of a regular oven with added Microwave functionality.

By the way, my previous (long) comment somehow got weirdly formatted in an edit and no longer reads properly. Sorry about that, I'm not sure how that happened.
Yolanda
5 months ago
What did you end up doing?

Steam oven & Speed oven overkill? Is plumbing the CSO worth it?

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cheri127

V S

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