Has there been a wall removed, that should have had a beam put in? Pictures would help

Is there living space above?

@cat_ky no wall removed, it is hard to capture in pictures. I am attaching them but not sure they will help. Soffits were previously built angled to compensate for sagging ceiling and joists.

@PPF. Good question! it is unfinished open attic with nothing above. the ceiling joists above the kitchen are all sagging. we were able to confirm that. The span is too long for the 2 x 6 joists and then adding the plaster which is also heavy is most likely the cause, just not sure best route to correct especially since contractors all have different solutions. The other rooms in the house are fine but also smaller spans.

Also, it could be the plaster detached from the lath I have seen many cases where that happens in older homes.

@GN Builders L.L.C we dont have lathe, it is plaster board (not sure what it officialy is called). We have confirmed the joists are all sagging, the plaster is still firmly attached to the joists. attaching picture of plaster. wire in embedded was for radiant heat in ceiling

Over spanned and undersized. Really all three choices get you the same end. With a full kitchen remodel with a space of that age I would want the ceiling removed regardless- you are removing soffits and likely want cans. So if all three contractors assume the ceiling is gone does that change the equation? With nothing above a full reframe with larger timber’s seems easiest…

@HALLETT & Co. thank you! so it sounds like all 3 contractor suggestions will work. Thinking we skip the beam option then, that quote was much higher.

@GN Builders L.L.C thank you! Will see if any of these contractors will consider trying that

To give you an idea, I'm sure your contractor knows this method is done all the time in similar cases, this is what they need to do to level and secure ceiling joists. If needed they can use 2 rows of strong backs spread 4' apart and add additional bracing to tie everything in, but rarely when we needed to do that.

You can print this and show him and see what he thinks.

@GN Builders L.L.C thank you so much for the visual!! really appreciate your help

You bet! Good luck

From only internet pics, I would be in Hallett's camp of just demoing the ceiling. At that point you can either sister (after raising) or replace with 2x10 (the required size for that span with limited attic storage) depending on what else these existing 2x6s do (e.g. 18' kitchen span for a 1960s house is unique, there probably were some walls or relocation of kitchen done). Leaning demo because of the radiant within the soffits, and looks like some haphazard wiring laying in the attic, so a rethought of heat with a full remodel/lighting kinda gravitates including the ceiling anyway.

If your kitchen is open to a Family Room in a 1960s house (I see a peninsula), then the structure has probably been altered and should be reviewed beyond the Kitchen. You may need to tear out more than just the Kitchen ceiling. But the true and best solution will arise with reviewing the entire structure that pertains to your proposed work.

A strongback method could work depending on the dimension the other way, but typically you will still have sag unless the strongback is sized large, which then really just makes it a beam similar to what the 1st contractor proposes. In any case the flush LVL method is overkill unless it pertains to some floor plan changes.

@3onthetree thank you! it is a closed off kitchen, not open to anything… we were thinking the lvl beam would be possibly more than what is needed. the entire ceiling has the radiant heat, not sure what we will find in soffit once demo’d. thinking maybe we should have a structural engineer consult and go from there.

thinking maybe we should have a structural engineer consult

Don't overthink this. It's a really simple problem for a framer to solve and the best solution probably depends on the scope of work for your kitchen remodel.

Some of the pictures seem to be taken outside the kitchen -- maybe in the breakfast room, and you don't say if the sag continues into this space.

We also do not know what the attic is like -- how much working room is up there?

I'd suggest removal of the existing ceiling and framing, and reframe with proper sized material, giving you a (hopefully) flat and level ceiling.

@PPF. thanks! all the photos are in the kitchen, there is a small table in there to sit at. it is a closed 13’ x 18’ room with 3 doors and a walkway, so broken up along all the walls. the dining room is behind it which would have same joists running above and there is no sagging in that room, or any other room in the house. plenty of working room in attic, it is a full walkup with stairs, a center cat walk, and probably 7’-8’ high in center. The contractor suggesting the beam is making a big deal about it. they say their way is only right way and that if do anything else is could impact the ceiling load and cause issues. I think we will need to have it permitted because this impacts structure and we will need township in for permitting electrical and plumbing for remodel. we were just hoping an engineer consult could help us so we don’t hit issues.

The span of your ceiling joists are affected by their spacing.How far apart are they please?

@Joseph Corlett, LLC omg thank you for responding, I admire you so much on here! our joists are 16” on center. Attached is the hand sketch of the contractor recommending the beam. this will give you an idea on the joist direction and overall room. you can see where they are suggesting the beam. they were only going to remove 4’ strip of ceiling to install beam and then repair the rest of the plaster ceiling. again most other contractors are suggesting sistering joists. please let me know what other information would help.

I'm with Hallett & Co. on this one. If you're remodeling the entire kitchen you'll probably want to remove the soffit and have the upper cabinets go to the ceiling which will make the space feel larger. Add to that potential lighting changes and you're probably better off removing the ceiling and exposing the framing. After you do, you can choose whichever method is least expensive.

@Charles Ross Homes thank you, was hoping we could do one of the less expensive options! definitely expensive enough taking on a kitchen remodel. We just want to be sure it gets fixed properly so no more sagging. We are doing custom cabinets to the ceiling and we are keeping it a closed space. Hope someday closed kitchens come back in style. Very excited to update the layout and functionality.

I thought this was only a ceiling repair... but if you replacing the entire kitchen and decide to go with the beam option instead of the less expensive way to fix that... remove the plaster from the whole ceiling and after the ceiling joists are leveled use drywall (only a few extra drywall boards) this way you have a nice smooth ceiling and don't end up with a 4' patch over 18'.

Good luck

@GN Builders L.L.C thank you so much, we don’t understand why they aren’t removing the entire ceiling? They said they could fill in the 4’ removed seamlessly for us. The other contractors are taking the entire ceiling down.

Since you have a small area, probably 12' x 18' give or take not to mention it will be a drywall patch against existing plaster and this is why the other contractor wants to do it the right way to avoid a 4' patch in the middle of the kitchen.

Your contractor's idea is superior to sistering joists by far. It seems to be the least destructive and I like that too. I'd go for it.

@Joseph Corlett, LLC thank you so much!

The solution to fixing your ceiling is not a patented method that is associated with a certain contractor. Any contractor can build the appropriate solution that is dictated to them. And other things play in selection, like if this same contractor will be installing your cabinets or running the whole project by G.C.'ing the electric/finishes/etc.

The extent of remodel plays into how much ceiling is removed. Most people interpret "complete kitchen" as a necessary gut including much more than just a change in cabinet style or color - electrical requirements are different now, insulation/moisture control methods are much better than the 1960s, layouts can be greatly improved, etc. And with that spending a ton of money on new cabinets/counters/appliances/floors/lighting justifies the ease of starting fresh rather than dealing with limitations of swiss cheese walls and patchwork.

There are some possible concerns to note with this project:

- Large attic with "full walkup stairs, catwalk, 7'-8' ceiling": It seems this is more than a roof attic used more than for maintenance; so already overspanned 2x6's that also have a heavy deadload with the radiant and double plaster board, allow no storage of items, and will deflect with spread or point loads (e.g. walking) should be evaluated. Putting a new LVL splitting these does not (wholly) change the capacity of the 2x6s mounted into it, and the LVL will stick up 6" above them. As I already stated, 2x10's are the proper size of lumber for this span and some light storage.

- Radiant: solution should consider extent of it in the ceiling, method of heat compared to rest of house, existing radiant works with new cabinet/circulation/lighting layout, demo doesn't raise risk of errant destruction, single layer of new drywall may require additional reflectors/different insulation.

- The physical method of straightening the existing 2x6s: Realize that you cannot just lift a sagging piece of wood and immediately all is right - you incrementally lift, by say 1/8" or so, over a long period of time. If, like most contractors would prefer, come in one afternoon, build a tall wall to bang under the sag to lift it, you will get cracks everywhere in the ceiling that is left, and the wood will probably not keep the shape. And, if you just slice the middle of the sagged wood to install a LVL in the middle, the joists to either side of the LVL will still have some sag.

I believe the OP will be best served by removing the ceiling and starting over, provided demolition doesn't require any abatement of asbestos or lead paint.

I'd have that ceiling flattened and structurally sound in a day. Next day for drywall touchups. Way too much over-thinking going on here.

We had to do something similar in a 1960's vintage rancher a couple of years ago. We installed a LVL beam in the attic and used straps to hang the joists from it. As 3onthetree advised, I think you'll get a better result by gently coaxing the joists from their current position over a period of a couple of days.

Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.

I haven't read anything that says why it's sagging but only that it is sagging. Taking the ceiling down should show you why it's sagging and that's what you need to know to fix it.