I just read through this long topic and in a couple of places Norway spruce was mentioned. A study was done at SUNY Syracuse a few years ago to determine the growth curves for Norway spruce in unthinned stands in New York State. They analyzed a large number of stands on a variety of soils (somewhere between 50 and 100 if I remember right). They "destructively sampled" a large number of the tallest trees and plotted their growth, taking into account the number of times the trees had been weeviled and/or had other kinds of injuries. Anyway, to reduce a long and thorough study to the bare essentials, on the best sites trees that were 4.5 feet tall at a starting point were about 115 feet tall after 50 more years. The starting point of 4.5 feet was selected because the time it takes to get to that height was affected by many unpredictable factors such as weed competition, etc. that it couldn't reasonably be factored in. I have done my own measurements on a small number of stands in MD and WV and have found some that exceed those in NY by a small margin, the best being a little over 120 feet in 50 years after the 4.5 foot height was achieved. It is my general impression that if the best strains were grown on the best soils, the growth would be somewhat better than 120 feet. Almost all the spruce stands I have found have been growing on class three forest soils, whereas class 2 soils are fairly common in this region. To explain just a bit, on a class 3 forest soil red oak will grow to 65 or 75 feet in fifty years, on a class two soil, 75 to 85 feet. So the importance of soil quality is rather great in determining the potential growth of trees. Class 1 soils are fairly rare in this region and tend to be bottomland soils suited to a limited number of species. The one thing that really struck me about these growth curves determined by the folks at SUNY Syracuse is that unlike the growth curves of virtually all other species that I have seen growing in the Eastern U.S., these growth curves were not really "curves" at all, but rather straight lines that as they left the graph at the 50 year mark were showing an undiminished rate of growth. Other growth curves show a "curve" that shows decelerating growth at that point. But, based on my own observations, the growth rate of Norway spruce does start to diminish fairly soon after the 50 year mark. I haven't seen the growth curves for redwoods and other western species, but I would assume that they use a 100 year time frame and must be something really impressive. My guess is that the best Norway spruce growing on the best soils in forest stands in the Allegheny region would eventually get somewhere close to 200 feet, about the same as in the best stands in Europe. The oldest spruce I have seen here are somewhere near 150 feet now and are growing, in one case, 6 to 10 inches per year at 100 years old (Rothkugel), and in another 12 to 20 inches per year at 73 years old (Glady), but both of these are on class 3 soils. --Spruce

RCMJR & misoilman, tnx for your replies. RCMJR: LDJ appears to have been in business since 1999. According to the LDJ website they claim the boiler is "Great for radiant floor heat systems". I'd be interested in talking to existing users to see how they are getting on with the the system. I took a closer look at their page about the corn boiler and they claim it's thermostat controlled, perhaps it's able to be dialed down. The picture of it looks like a water heater with a hopper sitting next to it. I'll post the url for the corn boiler. The capacity of the water heater portion is eighteen gallons. They also have an option that would allow the boiler to provide hot water for "domestic" use. So would be able to heat water for shower's, washing dishes etc. Right now the utility room has two gas fired water heaters sitting in it, one for the floor heat and one for domestic use, I think. We'd have to talk the heating and plumbing guy that took over from the H&P guy that had been maintaining the system for many years. The retired fellow is still in town and we might be able to talk him into coming over and orienting us with the systems. misoilman: Having the seller comfirm the moisture content of the corn would be the first thing I would insist on when purchasing the corn. I do know from talking with the folks at the elevator, they will not accept corn that is more than 15 percent moisture. I also need to check with the city to make sure there isn't an ordinance that would preclude me from having a small gravity box sitting next to the carport. If the gravity box is small enough, I'd even consider backing it into the carport. Alas, there is no basement on this dream house. Just a thick concrete slab...:-) So We'll probably use a couple of five gallon buckets for transfer of fuel from the box to the hopper. I'd just consider it a form of exercise...:) We're also a bit concerned about the age of the plumbing in the floor as it is original to the house. The impression I got from the house inspector was that the in floor plumbing was put in place then had the concrete poured over it. I'm going to have to have someone that has better eyes than me and know's what they're looking for, look at the blueprints and see if we can find out how thick the concrete is. Luckily, we've secured a "home warranty" from the seller for at least the first year (at their expense), and there is a possibility of extending it through the second year. I should also probably state that the corn boiler is not a done deal as we are still in the early part of the research stage. Although, a friend of ours has suggested we check the website of the Governor of Illinois and see if there are any grants or other incentives that we might be elgible for. Governor Blagojevich (Bla-goy-a-vich, what a mouthful) is very interested in promoting alternative fuels and energy use in Illinois. Here is a link that might be useful: LDJ's Corn Boiler page

Augie What size and efficiency systems both up and down do you have now-cooling and heating? Any specific issues with existing systems? I will assume you have conventional furnaces now. If you replace only outside condenser and inside evap coil and pair with existing furnace, you are just as well off staying with basic 13 SEER condensers. If you want higher SEER 15+, you must go with either two stage var speed furnace or at very least a single stage furnace model with high eff x-13 blower. I also question the sizing of the furnaces you were quoted. I will give a pass to the dealers on furnace models because these Trane furnaces whether down flow or upflow are adaptable to horizontal application which I suspect is what you have now. In other words, not a big deal. I do take exception to Mike's statement above about a two stage furnace running on low stage 90% of the time. Not true unless you have a true two stage thermostat. In fact if you use the timer on the furnace, you would be running probably 90% of time in high stage. A pet peeve of mine what dealers do to homeowners in this area. And yes a two stage stat costs more but will easily pay for itself. At this moment AHRI site is down. I will look up a system using both two stage furnace XV80 and single stage high eff blower XT80 for upstairs. I also recommend a pleated filter media cabinet that Mike suggested. IMO This post was edited by tigerdunes on Tue, Apr 30, 13 at 7:32

Price is a little higher than I'd expect for a straight-forward changeout using Amana equipment and sized at 1.5 tons. But it's still fair and within range. Companies have other expenses to cover besides parts and labor. Are you confident with this contractor? Amana is fine equipment with a good warranty and if installed properly should do well. Have them check the ductwork to ensure adequate supply and return. If the 30-year-old Carrier used the same ductwork, chances are it's in fine condition, though. Prices vary by area and company. It's "outrageous" for a company in another state to say another price is "outrageous" because they can't see the job and don't know what's involved. Pricing varies by market, job, equipment, etc.