"Seattle as the center of the coffee world is a chuckle, a self-bestowed title."

Really?? A chuckle to you perhaps but not so much to a great many others. And an unnecessary and gratuitous extrapolation for Seattle being a forerunner in the expansion of the appreciation of good coffee in the US to "the center of the coffee world". No one has made that claim! I'm not sure how "self bestowed" that title may be either if entities such as Wikipedia, Fodor's and CNN acknowledge it, since they have no dogs in that race. Seattle Coffee Culture

By all means, Google the exceedingly "silly premise" of a Beer and Cool Water Drinking Culture in Phoenix or Houston or the equally preposterous Seattle Air Travel Culture and what do you get? Pretty much nothing! Do the same with Seattle Coffee Culture and you get pages of hits.

btw, 'culture' is defined as "the customs, arts, social institutions, and achievements of a particular nation, people, or other social group". Why that term cannot apply to Seattle just as well as to Vienna or London or Timbuktu is assigning more to the definition than it merits. But then there are some that comment here who think they are the ultimate arbiters of taste........if only in their own minds.

SeattleMCM, you said you moved to Seattle in 2000. Of course you don't know about Boeing's influence on Seattle.

Boeing was founded in 1916. Boeing was all there used to be to Seattle, it was the major employer. This was long before Amazon, Microsoft, etc. I worked for Boeing for almost 38 yrs. So did many in my family. It used to be that everyone knew someone who worked for or had worked at Boeing. It's not that way anymore because Boeing is now all over the U.S. and there are many more industries here. Seattle was Boeing. During WWII, the factories that were manufacturing fighter planes had camouflage placed on the roofs because of fear that the Japanese would bomb them.

The Boeing bust in 1969-1971 saw employees being massively laid off. Company headcount went from 100,800 employees in 1967 to a low of 38,690 in April 1971.

This sign was posted by the airport in 1971. Real estate dried up. In 1970, Seattle's unemployment rate was 10% compared to a national average of 4.5%.

Here's some history on Boeing's influence in Seattle - Boeing Bust (1969-1971)

Oh trust me, I know about Boeing's influence on seattle now. It's just that when I first moved there, nobody around me was talking about it much. So I never knew anyone had thought of it as a "Boeing" town until years later. It seems to have lost its lustre, especially after Amazon took over.

Of course it's lost it's luster and no one was talking about it in 2000. It's not Seattle's major employer anymore. Boeing is more international today than it was in the past. And Boeing manufacturing sites are located all over the U.S. now. Everything - commercial aircraft, helicopters, fighter jets, etc., used to be built in Seattle. Fighter jets are now built in St. Louis. Helicopters in AZ and PA. Commercial aircraft are built in Seattle and Charleston, SC. Engines come from England and France. Boeing diversified because the commercial aircraft side of the company was stronger than the military/defense side of the company, so when the commercial industry was down, there would be massive layoffs. It's not that way anymore. The military/defense side of the company is just as strong.

I just wanted to enlighten you to Boeing's history and its place in Seattle. It's more than your arrival to the area in 2000, considering it was founded here in 1916.

Sephia, like with a lot of California defense contractors, I imagine many of Seattle's current big tech employers have some roots at Boeing, no?

Zalco, oh most likely. Aerospace/aeronautical engineering are a bit specialized but other engineering disciplines are a cross-over. And Boeing merged with CA's McDonnell Douglas in 1997. I'm thinking though that Seattle's big tech employees may not have an interest in working at Boeing. Like someone previously said, Boeing has lost its luster over the years and has a hard time retaining employees. It's an old, stodgy company and needs to figure out how to attract and retain younger talent. I retired in Dec 2019 and remember that HR charts showing college grads spend 5 yrs with the company and find it's huge, bureaucratic, and takes forever to turn the ship. But I'm proud of my career and things I got to do and see. I retired from Sales & Marketing and my region was China. I've been all over China, compliments of Boeing. Business class flights and swanky hotels 😂

Sephia, that must have been a fascinating ride watching China develop during those years.

With a lot of the SV firms the engineering is not one to one in transfer, it's more about a culture of science and tech that is passed down, often from one generation to the next. A person my age working at an internet start up in the tech side, often had a parent in defense. Stanford is closely associated with current tech companies, but it all really started out with Stanford and defense too.

I don't know how long Zalco has been in town but there was a defense contractor "neighborhood" in Silicon Valley that started where Ford Aerospace was (San Antonio@101) and went south on both sides of 101 to North Sunnyvale. Lockheed had a huge satellite and defense facility there, still does, that at its peak had over 10,000 employees at the site. Also there was the "Blue Cube" also called Onazuka AFB. It was a windowless blue building right off the freeway (and easily hit by RPG by a passing car) that everyone knew served as the ONLY spook satellite downlink in the US for communications with military and intelligence satellites. Most of the defense contractors are gone, the older buildings taken down and replaced with newer and much larger ones occupied by the usual cast of suspects. Lockheed has sold some of its land but is still there.

"...that must have been a fascinating ride watching China develop during those years."

It was alarming to me. What Boeing did was teach the Chinese how to build commercial aircraft. China is Boeing's largest customer with billions on order. Working in Sales & Marketing for years I saw how sales went down. My team was responsible for providing training to Chinese airlines who purchased our aircraft. Training of all kinds, from simple project management to executive leadership development to pilot development training and anything in between. We partnered with institutions China recognized - Harvard, MIT, etc. Whatever they wanted Sales & Marketing leadership made it happen so they'd buy more aircraft from us. I predict Boeing will eventually regret it.

Google Comac and read about China's aerospace company. They learned what they from Boeing and Airbus. They're a few years away from getting regulators to certify them but it will happen.

Elmer, We arrived in 1996. My husband worked for Northrop in Sunnyvale at the old Hendy Ironworks, home of some famous gear hobber before going to grad school the following year. Love reading about the Blue Cube. I didn't know anything about that. Lots of Lokheed stuff over by the Jewish Community Center in Palo Alto.

Lockheed’s campus was/is on the bay side of 101 at Mathilda. Ford Aerospace was on the site where that center is now, other side of 101 and a few exits north.

Elmer, My husband just explained which building was the Blue Cube. Yes, I know it. Amazing.

Zalco, I wouldn’t presume people in Seattle are only discussing real estate prices over their delicious coffee. It has one of (if not THE) highest percentage of college educated people in the US. And it is consistently #1 in the most well read US cities. So I suspect and experience that there are conversations about those other topics on your list, as well.

Oly, I was being a bit facetious. I don't think the new Sartre and Camus are at Café des Deux Magots. They are likely online discussing their thoughts. Cafe Culture was a thing of the past.

Seattle is #1 in every possible category and the place where any and all popular styles and practices originated.

Thank you for your gracious acceptance!

It's funny. I know five people who over the years moved to what I'll call the greater Seattle area. One remains, four didn't stay long. Of the four, three didn't make it to two years, the fourth stayed about four years. Not a high success rate.

Well I know 20 people who moved to CA and left again, lol.

Elmer's friends are the exception to the rule. As one of the fastest growing cities in the country over the past decade, the bulk of that new growth comes from California. That is followed by Texas and Oregon.

The influx of Californians is well known to locals and the subject of some joking but the reasons are plentiful: this is a high tech hub and with a thriving job market; there is less congestion; plenty of big city amenities (museums, theater, dance, symphony, a robust restaurant and food scene); a sophisticated, well educated and cosmopolitan population; and until very recently, a far more favorable housing market.

When I moved back here about 25 years ago no one knew where Seattle was exactly. Now that was long after Starbucks was supposed to have established coffee culture supremacy. Frazier apparently existed in some sort of existential vacuum. I like it here or I would not have moved here. I love Seattle and the areas around it. This is not some sort of DIS of Seattle. I am actually from this state being born at McCord. I lived here for twelve years in the 80's. I liked it so much that when I decided to move out of the south where I was at the time I chose this area out of all the world. Coffee however had nothing to do with that decision. Let go.

I do not get why the average American couldn't find Seattle on a map but maps aren't an American strength. They know the name but where? Coffee?

I'm happy that the average American can't find Seattle on a map. I'm hoping all the negative things that people think about Seattle that aren't necessarily accurate keep people from moving here. Traffic is terrible. There used to be a rush hour. Now there's a tiny window when traffic doesn't back up. I'm one of the rare native Seattleites - I was born in downtown Seattle. Most people are from somewhere else having moved here at one point for work. People need to keep on thinking it's just a horrible place. We don't need any more traffic and congestion.

As among the specious claims made in this thread, the one I think is plausible is this one concerning the provincial attitude expressing dismay over the influx of people from other places moving to the area. It's something I've heard before. In other major and influential metropolitan areas in the US, such attitudes are not common.

Though there are only a handful of them, the major companies that emerged in the area in the last 20-30 years would not have been able to provide the jobs, economic growth, and wealth creation that surely most in the area have benefitted from, but for the influx of newcomers.

Other than those of you who, if any, trace your roots only to any of the Pacific Northwest's indigenous peoples, all of you are where you are because of the migration of yourself or your ancestors. The doors were open for them as newcomers. Your attitudes and those of others in your area about new arrivals today and tomorrow (whether domestic or international) should be no less accepting and welcoming.

I agree with you about that Elmer; most of us or our ancestors were from elsewhere. I think the problem for us "natives" is the influx of people and business who come here because they love what they see, then set about destroying that very thing. The creation of jobs and "wealth" and economic growth really did not benefit our communities. All it did was cause more people to move here because of the opportunities. It didn't change our unemployment level; it just gave jobs to people moving here for jobs. It created a scarcity of resources that did not exist before, including affordable housing. It was growth at too fast a rate. Wealth has its downsides and since PNW is not really a status seeking culture (or has not had a history of that), our quality of life is more important than anything. We've watched that be destroyed by too many people. It's being loved to death here. I know that is true for other communities in some parts of the country, as well.

Oly, not trying to be argumentative at all - I adore you. 💜 However everything you just wrote applies to so many places across the country. I read almost the exact same commentary from "natives" in so many cities/ suburban areas. Austin, Charlotte, most of California, large swaths of Florida, etc..

The problem isn't the awesomeness of Seattle. The real problem is the lack of awesomeness in other places, combined with a rising population.

The indignation in many of the comments by the anti-Seattleites is pretty amusing. Why are they getting so upset? And with a lot of specious opinions regarding very non-specious and well documented claims. You can find written confirmation for ALL of them from a wide variety of non-Seattle based sources. Because the commenter does not care to agree with them certainly does not make them "specious"....it only makes the commenter look pompous, silly and uninformed and - dare I say - jealous of Seattle's popularity.

That this has become the desired destination of many out of staters is impossible to refute. At least half my client base are new to the area, many from both California and Oregon but many also from the midwest and east coast. Have yet to encounter anyone from Texas though.

Anti-Seattle? I see no anti-Seattle anywhere.

By "anti-Seattleite" I meant those by their expressed opinion denigrating Seattle as offering any features out of towners would seek out for relocation. They come in threads like this referring to the city constantly. I can name several commenters that routinely put the city down for whatever bizarre reason they may determine is appropriate.

These comments are often offensive/objectionable to those that live here, while they themselves do not bad mouth whatever city or area the commenter may live in.

If you have nothing positive or pleasant to say, perhaps might be best to keep your negativity to yourself!

@Elmer J Fudd One remains, four didn't stay long.

Just curious-- around what timeframe would that be? In the past 10 years, rents and housing prices absolutely skyrocketed. Many of my friends wanted to stay, but couldn't afford it.

I myself almost lasted only one year, but that's because I was homesick and hated the gray weather. My friends had an intervention, I decided to give it more time, and now I've been living here for 22 years. I actually love the grey weather now and can't imagine living anywhere besides the PNW.

Ally De, as I mentioned in my last post, I know there are other areas suffering from being loved to death!

Gardengal, perhaps all the Texans are settling down here. Some just moved across the road from me - lovely family. I see many more posting on Next Door.

One fall-out of Californians moving here is the tidiculously high prices they will spend on real estate, because the homes they sell in CA fetch such high prices, ours are lower by comparison. So locals are being priced out of the market completely. And the rest of us see our property taxes skyrocketing as a result. I am pushing for a tax system like some other places have, where your valuation only changes when your home sells. Taxes of other homes in the neighborhood aren’t affected. Seems more fair.

Olychick, I agree with you re: Californians moving here and inflating the real estate market. I remember several years ago people from CA were moving here after selling their much higher priced homes and bringing cash with them. That was the beginning of the crazy housing market. A friend lives in Kirkland and she had 3 separate people knock on her door asking if she was interested in selling. She didn't pay attention to the first one but with the second and third she asked where the people were from. Both answered they were relocating from CA because they were recently hired on by tech firms in the Lake Union area. All three people made exorbitant offers for her home.

You can't have it both ways. If your area is desireable, then people will want to move in and you will have to keep up, or find new pastures.

Washington doesnt have income tax and of course property tax ends up having to pay for everything so it is going to be high.

As a person who has moved a lot I have trouble getting the fierce resistance to the most innocuous comments on Seattle. I assume it is a human genetic trait. I was once discussing the peculiar to me tribalism of small towns-the rivalries that grow up between them over nothing that I could see only to have my friend rave on the reasons why Anacortes was so superior to Sedro Woolley and congratulating herself for being from the superior town. Well, I just dont see it. Seattle is a lovely place with some nice neighborhoods. The weather is better than advertised. The traffic is bad but it is bad everywhere. That is not a Seattle phenomenon. At the same time traffic was increasing in Seattle it was doing the same elsewhere-remembering that I have been elsewhere. A lot of people come from someplace else here. My friend was born in California. One of my sister's was born in Seattle. I should ask her if she knows exactly where. I am willing to bet there people who will rank the better places to be born in Seattle.

Oh gosh, I hope it didn't come across that I hate Seattle. That's not it at all!

We have roughly 50 million more people in this country than we did in 2000. They all have to live somewhere. And by and large, people are choosing to flock to certain areas while others are experiencing a net loss. It's not rocket science to figure out why.

Charlotte, Atlanta, parts of Texas, parts of California, Seattle, Portland - there are just a whole lot more people who live there compared to 20 years ago.

It's not just Californians that are raising the housing prices. The tech workers are coming from all over.

"The creation of jobs and "wealth" and economic growth really did not benefit our communities."

I copied this sentence as a placeholder for this particular comment. Perhaps your community is too far away from the companies whose growth in employment and size has fueled the economic boom. Or you don't understand how knock-on effects of private sector growth affect everyone, even down to the local plumber who has more work to do and can charge higher prices in a busier market.

Seattle is well represented but is not in the Top Ten of metro areas in the US. Whatever has happened in Seattle in the last 40 years has happened elsewhere and to a greater extent. There's nothing that exceptional about it.

"Wealth has its downsides and since PNW is not really a status seeking culture (or has not had a history of that), our quality of life is more important than anything."

How nice for you to have such a homogenous population of caring people. Baloney.

I've encountered this kind of self-doubt requiring reinforcement before. "We're special here in this special place, aren't we?" Well, no.

Though I've spent enough time in the area to get its measure and I know I personally wouldn't be happy living there, I have nothing against Seattle or people there. Other than having sensed that there is a greater prevalence of provincial thinking and attitudes of regional arrogance than elsewhere.

SeattleMCM, you've said you've only lived in Seattle since 2000. You can't legitimately speak to what occurred prior to 2000. I can. I was born in Seattle and have lived here my entire life - 60+ years. It was CA transplants prior to 2000 that moved here and inflated the real estate prices.

Sure, lots of other people have moved here since. But the crazy real estate prices that Olychick and I mentioned occurred before you lived here.

"...there is a greater prevalence of provincial thinking and attitudes of regional arrogance than elsewhere."

Ouch. Is that necessary? So you don't like the area and would never consider living here. Good. Is it appropriate to insult those who do live here?

Honestly 🙄

^^^^ Pretty much par for the course. Elmer seems to think his opinion is the only valid one.

Keep it going! Those of us here in the fly over states with a low cost of living are enjoying the discussion!

He’s a hoot!

I'm like, "you don't like it here? Stay the hell away then. And keep your opinions about those of us who do live here to yourself."

Saying "I have nothing against Seattle or people there" then going on to say we have "provincial thinking" and "attitudes of regional arrogance" - that sounds to me like there is something to the way he thinks about Seattle or the people who live here.

I usually don't comment when Elmer slings insults, but this time I'm a member of the group he's dissing.

Again 🙄

Everyone looks for different things, different amenities, different opportunities, when they can choose where they live. Some don't have a choice or haven't had enough experiences or courage to know about alternatives. We lead our lives differently, with the opportunities to choose or the lack of such opportunities as our circumstances and luck allow. Fortunately, we don't all like the same thing as it would be even more crowded in those few places.

Enjoy and be glad about where you are, that offends no one. Pushing yourselves up by pushing others down does. Fooling yourself into thinking you or your area is special in some way, also does. Nothing more or less.

About the complaining over the cost of housing, I am all for increasing housing supplynto help reduce prices, but the fundamental lament that housing is getting more expensive due to an influx of migration is odd to me. I never heard anyone from Rust Belt cities rejoices as their housing prices went down.

“Pushing yourselves up by pushing others down does,”

Oh, the irony! LOL

Nice try. Over and out!

@sephia_wa I feel like you keep missing my points, but whatever. I thought we were discussing the the recent population boom and recent house pricing and rent hikes. Yes, I agree they've been going up for decades, but they seem to have absolutely skyrocketed in the past ten years.

This conversation has taken a turn and I honestly can't bring myself to care.

I see your point Zalco, but are those cities desireable to live in, regardless of housing costs? If they were, people would be scooping up the housing and moving there. Here, some of the more desiresble areas, have become so inflated that no one earning a modest salary, like service workers or teachers, or nurses can afford to live there. Those areas have extra pressure on housing because eveything is being converted to short term rentals for all the tourists. Tourists used to be great for the economy, but now there is no housing for the workers who support that industry. I’m certain that is a lament in other areas of high demand, too.

Elmer, google "passive aggressive" and "gaslighting." You're the epitome of both. Both passive aggressive people and people who gaslight think they're right, fail to see other's points of view, and continue to insult when attempting to explain what they mean.

Over and out on this.

Elmer :

Though I've spent enough time in the area to get its measure and I know I personally wouldn't be happy living there, I have nothing against Seattle or people there. Other than having sensed that there is a greater prevalence of provincial thinking and attitudes of regional arrogance than elsewhere.

Me: Meta-arrogance much?

SeattleMCM, I understand what you said. I was responding to your comment:

"It's not just Californians that are raising the housing prices. The tech workers are coming from all over."

I guess we are talking two different things. My apologies for the confusion. I was referring to when it seemed the escalating real estate prices began. It was from people from CA moving here years ago.

Yes, you're absolutely correct, it's not just Californias raising the housing prices and tech workers are coming from all over now.

Guess I was expecting you to read my mind and know what I was referring to 😉