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gap between shower tile edge and wall?

last year

Should this gap be between the wall and shower edge tile? The edge tiles on the other side of the shower are flush to the wall.

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Comments (7)

cpartist
last year
No and that tile was spot bonded which means you're looking at problems down the line.

How did they waterproof that shower? I don't see any.
Mbf4604
Original Author
last year
@cpartist he used the orange Schluter waterproof stuff. LOL. I don't know what it is called.
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"It's not about size. It's about layout." Obviously they shouldn't have started with a full tile at the wall. But this is what many DIYers do and this is what they did. They didn't want to get involved with cutting tiles and figuring out the sizes of the two ends. They just wanted to lay them down. Based on that, they should have selected a different tile size which would have allowed them not to think and just lay them down in whole pieces.
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Thanks for the comments! Unfortunately I think I will have to live with it. I spoke to him about it yesterday, and he agreed it was his error. He offered to fix, but said it would require ripping out a fair bit of the tiles in that area. He thinks it will be hard to get the angle to pry off the tiles cleanly and is concerned about pulling away the niche substrate. I don't have many extra tiles, so more would need to be ordered and there's a high minimum order quantity. My grout is meant to match, so I'm hoping this isn't very noticeable once completed. I hope letting it go isn't a mistake that will bug me in the future! The niche's placement is not very visible by design.
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That is a conversation/communication I have with customers before setting. In some cases it is better to go point to point (flat) on a wall with exposed edge like that And live with and out of plumb condition. (I still would try to shim out backer board/kerdiboard the back corner as much as possible to plumb so the cuts look uniform in the back corner. As long as you have a flat plane on the wall you are good usually) Nor sure but looking at the pic....could be the pan liner was folded up at the bottom or something like that which caused the bottom of the wall to stick out.... so if you went plumb from that spot... yes you could be way out there at the top. Not sure of the methods used. Sometimes I have had to plane the studs to accommodate this. (You have to also take into consideration if you do this....whether or not there is enough adjustment for a glass door if you are getting a shower door kit from a box store. They only usually have a tolerance of about 3/8” or so. Anything more than that and you have to usually have a glass company make custom doors....which is way more expensive.) Obviously you would have had to redo the entire plane of drywall on that wall and not just in the shower to make totally plumb. Otherwise the transition would look bad. Some times that is unrealistic. Especially when a vanity or door or window is on the same wall/plane Because it would throw everything else off. But this should be communicated to the contractor and/or homeowner so you can manage expectations. Bottom line is that this looks unacceptable and I don’t see that being remedied by skimming more drywall mud. Then the ceiling line is going to have a big wow in it.
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The gap at the edge is not the real problem. That’s worrying about the color of the band aid over a nicked artery. That is not a job from a professional qualified tile contractor. One issue in getting recommendations from homeowners is that most homeowners don’t actually know enough to be able to judge if the job was done correctly. All they know is the guy mostly showed up on time and it isn’t too obviously a fail. They do not understand that what lies beneath their pretty and expensive tile is far more expensive, and far more important, than what it ends up looking like in it’s superficial appearance. Not meaning to insult you, but that’s true here. You are noticing the superficial low quality installation aesthetic appearance, but do not have any specifics about any of the processes or materials underneath the spot bonded tile on the out of plane walls, with no visible waterproofing on the still visible wall underneath. You’re still worried about the superficial appearance, and that’s not the real issue here. If that visible gap didn’t exit, you’d never think about the other deficiencies that are pretty apparent to an experienced eye because of that gap. (You’re actually very lucky the gap is there!) And you might go on to recommend this hack to other homeowners. Only to retract that recommendation in a couple of years time when the mold shows up. After he’s done his damage to other projects, and put you in his rear view mirror. Homeowner recommendations for skilled labor projects should always be taken with a huge dose of skepticism. Professional recommendations, only slightly more weight. An electrician doesn’t understand tile. The weight to give are industry certifying bodies, and membership in trade specific groups. Industry education for tile is trying to catch up and police itself of the unqualified. Its not the $2 a square foot Depot lot guys that are to be worried about. People know they’re getting nothing quality for that. It’s the 2K tub wall guys that are the problem. They present as knowledgeable, but aren’t. They do far more damage than the day labor guys, because people have higher expectations, but don’t have the personal knowledge to verify that the contractor can fulfill those expectations. A homeowner shouldn’t have to learn all about the technical details. But in the Wild Wild West of guys with trowels for hire, that learned knowledge is the bottom line defense of their castles against Trojan Horse contractor’s who surface appear to be qualified, but aren’t. To mix a half dozen metaphors. That work is an obvious fail. It needs to be completely redone, from the framing out, with someone who understands and follows industry standards. While cost is no guarantee of quality work, it is an overall indication of the time and quality of materials being used on the job, which does correlate to the quality of the work. I‘m not talking the actual tile. That’s completely irrelevant to what goes on under the tile. The required materials and time that it takes to do a shower properly has the industry prevailing costs be in the 7-9K range. A tub surround, 4-7K. When interviewing for your new contractor, after taking the proper steps to fire this one, please use the questions from the CTEF website about how to find a quality tile installer. Then use your now educated sad experience to educate others.
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PRO
Dragonfly Tile & Stone Works, Inc.
last year
So just exactly what is spot bonding?

Spot bonding, sometimes called “5 Spot,” is an incorrect procedure used to “bond” or adhere the tile to the surface. Typically, globs of mortar are placed in various “spots” on the back of the tile, often the four corners and the middle (5 spots) but they can be random as well. This is NOT an approved tile installation method, and failures resulting from this practice generally require a tile repair using proper methods which can include complete removal and replacement of the tile. Why is spot bonding a problem?

Spot bonding does not ensure adequate bonding of the tile to a properly-prepared substrate. Per industry approved methods, 80% mortar coverage on the back of the tile is required in dry areas (floors and walls) and 95% mortar coverage is required in wet areas.

Dry set mortar, often referred to as “thinset” can only be used up to a certain thickness, often no more than 3/8”. Spot bonding will always require that the thickness is far beyond what the mortar is designed for and will result in the mortar shrinking, and pulling away from the tile. This leaves an inadequate bond between the tile and the substrate, and forms voids under the tile where no thinset is present.

The result of spot bonding means:

· Wall or floor tile will have inadequate support and may crack.

· Voids under the tile create areas that are not bonded. Moisture can become trapped in these voids, causing discoloration and/or mold and mildew behind the tile.

· No impact resistance, shortening the life of your tile installation.

· Due to lack of support, tile may punch through to the subfloor beneath when point loads like high heels are applied.

· Grout cracking or loose grout, creating an unsightly appearance.

· Tiles easily come loose and/or crack (even fall off the substrate, causing a serious hazard).

· Hollow sounds that at the very least can be annoying.

It’s also important to understand that tile is a surface covering. In actuality, the tile itself is often a thin layer of fired clay, which is not strong enough to be load-bearing, unless it is properly bonded to a sound substrate. That’s why spot bonding is a problem.

Why would a tile installer use this improper spot bonding method to adhere the tiles?

· It’s faster. There may be “production pressure” to get it done.

· The tiles can be maneuvered into place easier, even if the substrate was not properly prepared. This is particularly true with larger tiles where “lippage” can be a problem, especially if the tiles are not perfectly flat or the substrate was not properly prepared.

· The installer is not properly trained or familiar with the accepted industry standards and recommendations.

What can I do to avoid the problems associated with spot bonding?

· Make sure a qualified tile installer is performing the work. A qualified tile installer will use approved industry recommendations and follow product manufacturer specifications.

· A proper tile installation starts with a flat, even surface! Require that proper substrate preparation is performed.

Your tile installation should last for many decades, and the vast majority do! Your first line of defense against an improper installation is to make sure you have a qualified tile installer on your project.
millworkman
last year
That sounds fine but as noted, spot bonding tile in a water area is a compete non-starter and do-over.
Mbf4604
Original Author
last year
@millworkman @cpartist @Dragonfly Tile & Stone Works, Inc. when I showed my contractor this photo, he said "it is ok if there is a hump in the wall it is better to butter the back of the tile". Thoughts?
millworkman
last year
last modified: last year
""it is ok if there is a hump in the wall it is better to butter the back of the tile"."

Nope, the hump should have been dealt with BEFORE the Kerdi and the tile work was started.
PRO
Dragonfly Tile & Stone Works, Inc.
last year
@Mbf4604 . Millworkman is correct. Spot bonding has become one of the greatest problems our professional industry consultants are encountering. It's causing major failures. What your contractor is telling you is that they didn't want to prepare the substrate properly, and according to industry standards, before they proceeded with other prep work and installation. It is WRONG.

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