12-3-22

JFWIW:

The trees never did Fall color but nbd. Received several inches of snow over the time we were gone, mid-November. Much of it has melted but some skifts of snow arrived lately. -2f this AM.

#2 tree: (front yard).

I removed the 'fork' on tree #1. Hoping for more of a single trunk. At least for a foot or so. Makes it much easier to apply varmint protection as time goes on. Should branch out good next spring if it survives.

Tree #1:

:-)

Looks like on the plant in the second picture you lost the tip already. Rereading the thread I see you had that growth spurt in September. That is what I had mentioned earlier that I see on the Iseli hybrids here and usually gets damaged.

My seedling korean maple colored nicely and defoliated. The NDSU korean maple colored nicely and held all the leaves as expected. My Ice Dragon had no fall color and most of the leaves stuck on. First time for bad fall color, leaf stick seems variable year to year, but worse this year.

I thought I had read or heard somewhere a belief that some of the Korean maple seed on the market may actually be hybrids with some of the other Asian maples.

Thanks

Yah, #1 tree was the worst for growing on into October. Tree #2 had the very tips die.

Of coarse sometimes my red's have done this when late Falls happen. Generally no big deal.

Not sure of the seed source here.

I'm more concerned with the roots this first season. Be nice if more snow fell before too long.

I followed through and asked my supplier about seed providence and he's pretty sure they're species Korean maple (Acer pseudoseiboldianum).

I don't know why they refused to harden off but even my Ilex v. were putting out new growth on into October, which they also did so last year and still came through winter with no noticeable winter die back.

I went out today and shoveled what loose snow there is over the root zone of both maples (and the Cornus a.).

More snow forecast over the next couple of days. 🤞

I'll be able to tell you more next spring.

:^)

3-2-2023 Update:

Turns out I didn't need to be concerned about the snow cover at all. Snows in the 3-6" variety were occurring around once a week in Dec-January with skiffs in between. Not many wind events either compared to other years.

First half of February delivered some thawing weather which caused the snow depth/banks to settle down considerably. I even thought we might see an early spring (for a minute).

Second half of February was somewhat colder but seasonable. I think I can count, on one hand the number of -17 to -20f nights we've had all winter with several nights hovering around -7 to 0F. Coldest night was ~-23f. I'm considering this a mild winter for us.

5" additional snow arrived yesterday, some wind (lion?). Sun angle @37d so melting occurs every time the clouds' part. Could still get a wintery blast yet this month but it's surprising how fast a lot of snow can melt once temps hit the +40's and sun is above 40d.

Acer Psuedosieboldianum #2 & Cornus a. (cage buried behind the rock). The rock is ~3ft. tall (for depth reference).

Acer Psuedosieboldianum #1 (back yard).

:-)

5-3-2023

I found some information in another thread here on Houzz.

whaas_5a made this comment:

'Asian maples tend to put out late season growth when they get ample moisture August - I doubt you're watering anymore but I'd avoid watering that time of year.'

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5808150/korean-maple-branch-die-back

I made the mistake of keeping mine well watered all the way through October, which is the end of our growing season. whaas_5a's comment would explain why mine didn't want to quit growing at the end of season. And from the looks of things, there was already tip dieback after the first freeze last Fall.

I won't know anything more for a while; I'm just beginning to see new buds appearing on some of the branches. I'll post pictures when things become more apparent. And sharpen my bypass clippers in the meantime. ;-)

5-13-2023

Looks like things turned out pretty good. I had several branch tips to clip but most only had an inch or so of dead stuff and a couple that needed more like 2 inches clipped.

Tree #1 in the back yard came out of dormancy a little slower than the tree #2 and also is slower to leaf out. #1 also is coming with the typical red leaf color while #2 has light green with white, heavily pubescent undersides. #2 even has the red leaf margin I saw last year. It's like having two different varieties of trees.

I pruned #1 last season in an attempt to achieve a better form. It's like a straight stick now but these things shoot branches freely, everywhere, so I'll keep an eye on it to see what I can do.

#1 tree.

#2 tree has a naturally nice branching structure. I still pruned one or two lower branches, just to get 6" to a foot of clear trunk. It's so much easier to rodent proof a single trunk for winter, imo.

Oh, and the pagoda dogwood didn't blink an eye at winter. We don't always get this much snow but it's the first couple of years new trees are the most vulnerable to cold so I'm glad we had snow at least for the first year to help them towards getting established.

Cornus alternifolia:

:-)

5-16-2023:

:-)

5-27-2023:

Not a great picture, windy and trying to hold leaves aside and take a picture one handed.

I noticed what looked to be a red skin separating from the leaf petiole (left center) but after a while, that grew and terminated with an ovate shaped leaf like end (right center). This is tree #1 and the leaves appear greener this time around (they were dark red last year when first expanding).

Maybe someone with knowledge of what's going on can explain this. Flowering or attempting to?

Otherwise good growth considering everything.

Tree #1 (back yard).

Tree #2 (front yard). Less red on leaf margins this time around.

:)

7-2-23

I was gone for 5 days near end of June and when I came back, the Acer p.'s were alive, but it was sunny and in the 90's the whole time I was gone, with no meaningful rainfall. So basically, they quit growing, hardened off and had maybe a hint of leaf drooping when I returned.

They had put on a foot of new growth already this season but being it was still June, I figured I'd get another foot or so of growth before the end of season. Why not.

I started watering again and noticed new buds began to form and new leaves started coming.

I don't know why but these trees are acting like they did last Fall. #2 tree, the more branchy of the two, is growing but in bunches of growth. Not sure what's going on but could be the heat and incessant sun this time of year (15-3/4 hrs. direct sun here this time of year).

There's what appears to be some sun scorch when the new leaves first come on.

Could be just the nature of the beast and possibly may've benefitted from a sunshade early on or at least the first couple of seasons.

They are both growing and although a little weird, it's still growth :-) so instead of messing with a sunshade (documentation says the can handle full sun), I'll just keep them going knowing that everything is getting bigger including the root system, and I can deal with the branching issues as time goes on.

Poor pictures in the bright sun but here they are:

Tree #2 (my favorite, front yard, 2-1/2 ft. tall).

Tree #1 back yard: (~3 ft. tall)

This one grows as more of a 'single leader' tree. I staked and splinted it to stay that way bc it's so flimsy yet.

Earlier this season I tied up a side branch near the top. The tip dieback caused the tree to send out multiple new shoots from that end cut, so thought it best to keep it going like last season, at least for a year or two. I also noticed a couple of new shoots beginning on two of the lower side branches so this one may start more side branching as time goes on idk.

;-)

7-10-2023:

Well, I'm open to suggestions from anyone with experience growing Acer P.

The original spring growth is picture perfect. Then the 5-day dry hot spell.

I've been keeping them moist and in my porous, sandy loam, where it's hard to keep things wet.

The #2 tree, second growth, is the worst.

Some of the newer leaves on this tree, look like they're burnt or got too dry.

We do have a very sunny climate most of the summer and although these trees are described as 'Full Sun' (6-8 hrs. a day minimum), I wonder if this comment includes my climate with 'Full Sun' (14-16 hrs. day most of the season). And maybe this is just a seedling/sapling issue and will dwindle with greater root development?

All the new, weird looking leaves are those that sprouted after the hot dry spell and watering was resumed 6-21-23.

What say Ye?

Tree #1 is in the back yard, same conditions, and although the terminal main leader has similar growth to tree #2, the new growth on the side branches on #1 are looking normal and fill out nicely in time. (the older leaves look curled from their hot dry spell experience.

Side branches:

TIA

Looks like too much/strong sun on tender new leaves. Typically new growth happens in cooler temps and lower sun angles.

I agree. First growth was textbook perfect.

This new growth mimics last year's peculiar late growth.

Might sun shade it some being it's still early.

Thanks!

Same thing is happening to my little seed-grown maples -- new secondary growth was badly wilting in mid-morning sun, then came right back up in afternoon shade. If that continued all day, it might actually damage the new growth. Pic below is just as shade-time has begun.

7-11-2023:

Sunshades are in place. ;-)

Tree #2: (front yard).

At first, I just put up one fairly small piece of burlap, and being the sun was straight up, that one piece was enough to blanket most of the tree in shade.

But I know that our sun rises in the Northeast and sets many hours later in the Northwest,

I figured I needed more burlap to account for that.

If the tree improves, I can always take some burlap off. And used burlap is really not as much shade as you might think. Not sure of the percentage of sun the burlap filters out, but it's not blackout or anything like that. When you look from the inside, you can see through to a certain extent. Just guessing 80-85% shade. I noticed the sun peaking over the top onto a good part of the tree for 2 hours around high noon. But I'm hoping this will be closer to an 'Understory' setting.

I left the East side a little more open. It's cooler in the AM.

Tree #1: (back yard).

Should get early morning sun. I focused more on the top of the tree because that part is having the worst sunburning and went over the top of the frame partially, to prevent most of the high noon sun from reaching the tree.

West side: A little more shade for that sun angle.

Now I just have to hope I don't have more trees that I can't grow here.

Possibly, as the trees establish, they'll be able to handle the sun better.

:-)

Good job. Here's my little seed-grown maple before the sun hits it. Surrounded by nasty Japanese stiltgrass.

From what I'm observing, those Acer p. leaves, adapt to the full sun, once they get a chance to open up a bit. It's when they are barely starting to shoot from the end of the branch, they get the tips burned, and once the damage is done, the grow funny after that.

Cloudy today so can't tell a whole lot. Rained a half tenth last night.

Stay tuned. :-)

Hopefully mine will straighten out when the roots establish.

This has been a painfully harsh early season up here after two dry years, then abnormally warm second half of May. Then 90's most of June, rare to have that at all let alone all month. July hasn't been much better. What a year to start cool season plants.

We're actually in the 70's the last couple days, even had 47d for low the other night. Don't know if that will hold.

I should've caught this sooner but too much Lollygagging you know. ;-)

(Filtered) Sunshine...in the morning...makes me happy...... :-)

7-25-2023:

The burnt leaf tips are a thing of the past and it's still July. :)

There was a leaf roller caterpillar and some other small green bug taking advantage of the little, curled leaves at the terminal top of Tree #1.

It's why the main leader wasn't responding like the other branches. Problem solved then washed the guck off my hands. ;-)

Tree #2:

Branches are elongating now instead of clumping into bunches.

High 90's forecast all next week. Good growing weather if you can supply the water.

8-1-2023:

Tree #1:

Seems like things are back on track.

Nice new growth coming on many of the existing side branches.

No new sprouts on the top terminal leader but that may be irrelevant by the way this tree is branching out. Overall healthy looking and back to reddish new leaves. ;-)

Trunk #1: Trunk girth noticeably enlarging.

5/8" dia. 2 inches up. Reddish brown trunk bark, brownish red branches.

Tree #2: Nice new growth coming uniformly on all the branches. Red leaf margins are back.

Trunk: #2. Trunk girth more than #1 tree but #2 has more branching/branches.

>3/4" dia. 2" up. Greenish brown bark. Green branches.

:-)

8-2-2023:

Don't ask me how it happened, but after looking at the 'Trunk' pictures above, I decided to go out and run my finger around the base of the trunk, you know, just to double check for root flare.

These trees were planted under difficult circumstances (covered in the 7-26-22 post above) but they were seedlings, so what can go wrong?

Anyways, I couldn't find the root flare until I removed almost an inch of soil around the base. So, I don't know if watering the plant washed soil in around the plant, I don't think so because I'm always clearing the mulch a few inches away from the trunks. Could it possibly be the partially frozen soil when planted somehow frost boiled up when it thawed, changing the planting depth? IDK.

The plant was growing fine, and we do have a coarse soil so maybe the tree was able to breath regardless. Guess I'm glad I caught it now rather than later.

New picture:

Never mind. False alarm. 🤦‍♂️

I went out again and used a spray bottle to clean off the dark spots on the trunk.

The tree wasn't planted too deep. It had roots that went straight down for a way.

There were no horizontal roots until I got to this level, they radiate outward just below the visible soil you see in the picture.

So, it appears I'll be putting soil back on tomorrow. There're feeder roots galore just underneath what you see in the picture. New trees, new things to learn. :-)

8-9-2023:

I took the sunshades off both trees today.

We had 6 tenths inches of rain last night and it's going down to 52d tonight, mostly cloudy tomorrow and more rain forecast Thursday night and Saturday. High temps mid to high 70's.

Sun angle is a full 7d lower than the summer equinox and our days are more than an hour shorter than then also. So, we'll go with this information and see.

I'll be working at getting these trees to harden off. Last season, keeping them wet/moist caused them to send out new growth continually, on into October. Some tip dieback resulted.

I didn't have time today to take the wire surrounds off the trees for pictures, but I took them anyways, ;-) Nice new growth with large leaves on #2 tree and appreciable new growth on #1.

#1 and #2 trees are two different animals in both branching habits and colors.

#1: Nice orange/red new leaves on 5 new branches. I am not impressed. but seasonal root development and these are no longer seedlings is considered progress in my book. :-)

#2: Much fuller form with new branches growing out of everywhere. Lime green leaves.

;-)

Yeah, I noticed yesterday w/sadness the sun has been moving gradually south & lower. The long days are the nicest time of year,

One good thing, in my area, with days getting shorter and cool fronts coming down from the Northwest more frequently, the chances of rain and cooler temps increases, and the near drought conditions become less of an issue, even if I have to water some. :-)

8-10-2023;

Better pictures today.

#1. A little spindly but again, progress without any big setbacks. ;-)

#1.

#2.

#2.

:-)

8-12-2023:

A small TS went through yesterday afternoon with a few short gusty winds.

I never thought a seedling in the ground two seasons should have this problem, but when I looked at the tree (#2), it appeared to be rocking a little too much in the breeze.

When I looked closer, I could see a 2" dia. wallowed out spot in the soil around where the trunk went into the ground. The tree seemed very loose in the ground when I tested it.

My theory, is that a root snapped.

Either one of the two of the twins that appear to go straight down, or the one thicker lateral root I found earlier, an inch or so down below the ground. There were many, very fine feeder roots radially around the trunk but I'm sure they weren't very strong as anchors.

So, maybe this species of tree is too wimpy for this area? Tree #1 in the back seems to have a more normal looking root flare and wind doesn't seem to be a problem with it, but then the branching on that one is much sparser.

For now, I put in a few stakes and flexible ties, maybe too low but looks good during this fairly strong NW wind we're having today. We'll just have to wait and see. :^\

Bill - Seeing your trees' progress makes me all the more want to find a spot in my yard for a Korean maple. It can be tough growing trees in a setting that isn't their preferred habitat. I have had to stop growing Norway spruce for sale because my nursery fields are too wide open and they burn severely every winter. But plant them in a location with some shelter and they do just fine. Hopefully your maples will do better and better as the trees around them also mature. Sorry to see the results of your Canadian hemlock, by the way.

I'm late to respond, but just wanted to say that I think the hot, dry summer weather was indeed to blame for the burnt leaf edges. I had that all over many of my young maples. Didn't matter if the fields were heavily irrigated or not, fertilization or no fertilization. Not all varieties though. Rubrums like Northwoods had it pretty severe on the branch ends while Autumn Blaze maples in the same fields showed zero leaf burn at all.

Bill sez:

" My theory, is that a root snapped."

Hole might've been a mouse, vole or mole. All would love a tasty root to gnaw on.

Thanks, not much I can do.

I've just seen my first 'Pocket Gopher' in the back yard the other day. He eluded my attempts at capture. Caught one stripy and seen another last week.

Always something. :-)

8-19-2023;

Just a quick update.

#2 tree in the front, hasn't showed any adverse effects from what every caused it to wobble in the ground last week.

I would think root damage would show dead leaves or something else visible up top. But it's still looking healthy.

I added a couple more stakes on the upper branches, when they forecasted strong winds the other day. The biggest gap I've seen since is <1/8" and it really blew that day.

I let it get pretty dry by not watering the last 10 days, but it hit 90d today and thought I'd better not push it.

A few of the older leaf tips are brown but don't know if that's a related symptom.

Some of the newer growth has been expanding and hopefully the rest will follow suit.

Trunk looks good, don't really know why it all happened except for that strong gusty wind.

No rain forecast for the next 10 days. ;-)

Bill, I usually hang out in the hosta and perennial forums, but like to wander over here because I learn so much. So thanks you for sharing your extensive documentation of your 2 trees. What I was reminded of with the trees burning early, is what happens with new “sun tolerant” hostas. They generally burn badly as they adjust to the conditions where they are planted. Often the second flush of leaves comes out looking much better. (and sometimes you just have to move the hosta……😝) Perhaps the early burning of the trees is similar. It does seem like they adjusted over the course of the summer with your attention and help.

Thanks again.

debra

8-25-2023:

Given a year when we had more early rains, I would be more comfortable leaving these trees for longer periods of time between waterings because even if getting dry, the subsoil moisture would be sufficient to prevent damage or decline.

And there is a difference between not watering this time of year than it was back in June.

Things are beginning to harden off, new growth has slowed or stopped, and a second season of roots have almost completely developed, so moisture requirements are less, and with cooler nights, fewer 90d days and some cloudiness daily, I feel a little bit more at ease watching these grow in my silty sand soil. BTW: I noticed around 3% clay in my last Mason jar test, and although I suppose that varies in both directions around the yard it's still nice to know that I'm not completely devoid of this precious material in my soil. ;-)

Bill, in a rather drier climate, you might do what I used to do, shovel snow around the root zone of your trees in the winter (not piled up right against them), and that recharges the root zone area a bit more than surrounding areas as it melts. I had snow piles 5-6 ft high around some my trees. Sorta cuckoo, I know.

In my climate, if you don't water ANY tree it will die eventually. Not watering constantly is such a foreign concept to me.

-Beng, I have an apple tree, grapes and roses in ground in my unheated greenhouse and I have to do that throughout the winter - shovel snow on them

It's all a learning experience. What you need to do for each one's climate and soil.

Last few seasons we've had wet winters with multiple FEET of snow by spring.

Before that, we were lucky to have any snow all winter or none that stayed very long at all.

The sun can evaporate the snow directly into the atmosphere with little benefit to the soil.

It would be so easy if we knew exactly what kind of seasons were coming.

Every time I think I know something, I'm wrong. lol.

8-30-2023:

I'm not sure what to think.

I let the tree get dry again the last 7 days. Temps in the 80's & 90's. Cooler at nights.

But for some reason, these trees don't want to stop growing.

There hasn't been a lot of growth because they haven't had water but not hardening off all the same.

Last year when I saw this, I just kept watering because I thought they wanted to keep growing but that didn't work either. They just never harden of.

It's just this small amount of new growth that doesn't appear to want to harden off.

So, whether I water or I don't, the results appear to be the same. :-?

I've let them go but hate to let them get too dry either to prevent possible root damage.

The soil is somewhat moist/almost dry under the mulch but drying around the edges is advanced.

I just don't know if I should water tomorrow (temps will be in the 90's) or wait another day or two or three?

Tree #1 has a couple branches that seemed to have stopped growing but Tree #2 appears to have soft growth on every branch.

Tree #1:

Tree #2:

Sometimes a tree won't harden off, especially if very young. My 19 yr old honeylocust has the most vigorous stems growing all season. The ends of those are winter-killed, but then just continue growing from the last living part the next season.

I agree beng,

I think I'm just going to have to water when dry and not be too concerned about it.

Last year I kept them moist on purpose, but I think a little too moist.

At least the roots should be going deeper this way.

With the cooler nights and less sun, they'll possibly get the hint it's time to shut down.

I might have to try the 'Ice cube' method on them. ;-)

Every time my Honey locust gets a little water, it spurts out a few inches of new growth and I think that one can get a little tip burn over winter without consequence.

9-04-2023:

Earlier in August:

' I've just seen my first 'Pocket Gopher' in the back yard the other day. He eluded my attempts at capture. Caught one stripy and seen another last week.'

AM happy to report, finally got that pocket gopher today. Plus 4 stripy gophers since.

I have 4 5gal pails of sand that bugger piled/pushed up and no place to put it.

I think I'll just leave the stakes on the trees until next season until next seasons roots develop.

9-7-2023:

Just for fun, on a beautiful cool morning, I took some pictures (uncaged) of the two trees, A. psuedoseiboldianum.

They both look to be quite healthy considering the abnormally long hot season we've had here.

Yesterday we received 4/10" nice steady rain, and right after I had watered some.

This morning it was down to 39df. That's 60d colder than a few days ago when temps hit 99-100 as it has many times this season. (There were frost warnings in the far northern parts of the state).

#1 tree: The two good things I can say about this tree, is it's not a seedling anymore at 3-1/2' tall with increased trunk girth, and it isn't a 'stick' or whip anymore with at least 6 new horizontal branches from this season. Just not real showy yet except for the promise of good colors.

#2 tree:

Has put out new growth in numerous directions with even more girth increase than #1 tree.

Both are still a little shy of getting full, all-day sun but I've had worse experiences with plants and hopefully this will improve with more root development as time goes on. ;-)

I didn't water either one near as much as I did last year, when I kept them pretty moist almost all the time.

This season they went several times, in the hot sunny weather, without watering, for up to 7 days at a time, and the soil was getting fairly dry by the time they got watered again. Along the lines of 'Water deeply but infrequently' so this should've given them more opportunity for roots to develop than the season before.

;-)

10-6-2023:

Although growth has slowed with cooler weather now here, there hasn't been much of any real hardening off or expanding of the branch tips or immature leaves.

Tree #2 (front yard).

A little sign of hardening off on this one and a few more.

Anyways, today I dumped ice cube around the base of the tree to see if it helps it gets the hint that it's time to harden off. We've already had a quarter of an inch of cold rain last night and It's been highs in the mid to low 50's with 30's & 40's, going to light frost by Tuesday.

I don't know if it will even warm up enough anymore for things to grow from the top, but we do sometimes get a few days of what's commonly called 'Indian Summer' in late October.

Not saying this will affect anything one way or the other but sometimes you just have to try. ;-)

I didn't have enough ice to do this on Tree #1 in the back yard, but we'll see.

I'll know more in a week or so.

10-22-2023:

I can't tell if the ice did anything to #2 tree.

We've had a few lights frosts and one hard frost, after it was applied, followed by a nice spell the last week or so. To look at it, it's hard to tell.

#1 tree (with no ice) appears to be hardening off better than last season.

I can see where it tried to break bud again during that cool time but froze again.

The leaves are pretty dry & crispy and strongly marcescent.

By next weekend daytime temperatures are dropping below freezing for at least several days.

So, I did all I can do, and we'll just let 'er buck. ;-)

Strongly marcescent indicates that the stem wasn't able to grow a callus to cut off the leaf. Bitter cold mid-Oct 1976 cold spell in west MD left all the leaves on many trees killed & unable to fall, sticking on the trees all winter.

10-23-2023:

From what I see posted on other forums, Korean maple especially, and some of the Japanese hybrids can have this (marcescence) happen, as part of their natural makeup.

I'm almost certain this can or will improve as the root mass matures.

The only irregularity is on the branch tips that are dead in the spring, those tend to send out multiple new shoots from the same spot on the next node down, instead of growing on as a single branch. Pruning the entire dead part away too is not easy because of the angle of new buds forming, albeit the new growth does encapsulate the leftover dead part over time.

Fall colors won't win any prizes yet either, but they're alive and already survived their first winter here at the Boreal Analogous Arboretum. ;-)

I rodent/sunscald proofed the trunks about a foot up from the bottom. The marcescence may help with shading the trunks over winter.

#1 tree (back yard).

#2 tree (front yard).

:-)

It’s variabe on my various korean maple and hybrids. Korean maple from Bailey Nurseries never holds its leaves and good orange fall color. Northern Spotlight always holds its leaves and fall color is orange to red. Ice Dragon will retain the leaves in abrupt falls and color is usually poor those years. Other years it'll turn red and drop all the leaves

pennlake, How about the branching? Do you find yourself removing a lot of crossed/unruly branches?

I've always heard that diversity comes from planting seed but this tree appears to have a wide range of differences.

And I'm not too concerned about color. Even my sugar maple took several years of establishment to color well, and on time.

I don't hardly recognize the trees, in the pictures below anymore (10-7-2021). The week I bought them home after a trip to Wisconsin.

These may have been seedlings started the year before, just by looking at them.

I repotted them before placing them into the cold frame and iirc: #1 never did color that first year.

#1 tree:

#2 tree:

Yes they can be a bit unruly. It gives them character.

That's what I thought! :-))

Thanks!