Second-guessing my rose order

last month

First post. I have read a lot of good information here and I am hoping someone can help with a question I have.
I am doing some container gardening on a patio in zone 7A (close to the edge of 6B). I lost an unprotected Violet's Pride rose to late freezes this past winter and want to try again with something different. I want something that's beautiful, highly fragrant, and as cold hardy as possible. It seems hard to find all these in one rose.
I settled on pink as a color, but it doesn't have to be pink. I really like the way Yves Piaget looks, but it seems too tender to survive here. I like Cathedral Bells / Soeur Emmanuelle, but it seems too tall. I thought I found my answer with Dee-Lish / Line Renaud, but upon further reading, I see it is known to get quite tall as well.
Can anyone confirm how Dee-Lish grows and if it is well-behaved in a container? Or does anyone have a suggestion of something else to grow instead?

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strawchicago z5

13 days ago

last modified: 13 days ago

Agree with Cynthia that Scepter'd Isle is very tall as own-root .. I gave it away due to its being 5 feet tall in its 1st year (gallon-size).

Steve: With regard to what you wrote: "I am planning to leave the pots outside in the winter. I know it's not ideal, but it's the situation I have to deal with for now. I just threw out my 1-year-old Zephirine Drouhin rose after deciding it wasn't coming back to life. It was too happy in the mild early winter we had, and it leafed back out in January. A couple of freezes put a stop to that, and the plant never recovered. It never even got below 10F as far as I know. ZD "should" be hardy to much colder temperatures, but I guess it just hit the plant at the wrong time."

That's what happened in my zone 5a this past winter: In Feb., it dipped down to -20 F but roses still had green cane (at least one foot of green cane on Dee-lish, Princess Charlene de Monaco, and Sweet Mademoiselle).

Then we had tons of freezing rain mid-March, and the above died down to 1/2 foot of green cane, and those that start out with 3 inch. of green cane end of Feb, became dead in mid-March.

My Zeph. Drouhin is 8th-year own root, and it WAS NOT affected by freezing rain in March since it's planted on a steep hill (water drains down fast), plus I buried it below 5 inch. of rock-hard clay which protected the crown from the acidic & freezing rain.

Now on May 5, Zeph is green to the tip (4 feet) with zero dead branches.

Today I pulled out a rooting which was exposed to freezing rain in April (tons of rain, then temp dropped to 20 F). The upper cane is green, but near the root turned black, so I threw that rooting away.

The potting soil inside was dense and slowed down the drainage despite tons of holes drilled at bottom of pot. I should had made that potting soil drains faster by mixing in gypsum prior to planting that tiny rooting.

I contemplate storing pots outside in my zone 5a, and some ways to buffer against tons of freezing rain in March & April which corrode the root (NOT by extreme cold, but by tons of acidic rain that freezes and crack the crown).

1) Fast drainage, such as air-pots or elevated on bricks.

2) Piling up bags of soil into a tall wall around pots (on sale for 1/2 price in late fall). That's to insulate -20 F temp in Feb. in my zone 5a.

3) Pile up alkaline horse manure (pH 8) or wood chips on top of roses to buffer against the acidic rain (pH 4.5) here in Chicagoland.

4) Cover roses with 2 double-layered Yard-Waste bags (one inside another) which help some rain to float out, rather than sinking down to corrode roots, or crack roots when temp. drops.

In late March, after that freezing rain, I asked husband to burn a big pile of branches.

He was annoyed since I piled up pruned perennials & tomato branches on top of rose branches in a tall heap (2 feet tall). At the bottom of the heap, I found roses' canes still green from last pruning in late November.

The freezing rain did not turn those green canes black, since they were buffered by a heap of of branches on top, same with the own-roots which I put plastic pots around (bottom cut off), then piled up wood chips inside up to 1 foot.

The wood-chips (up to 1 foot high) prevented fluctuation of temp which cracked roots, or freezing & acidic rain that turned canes black.

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Comments (21)

summercloud -- NC zone 7b
29 days ago
Have you looked into the Veranda series by Kordes?
Chris Martins Zone6a Chicago
29 days ago
Sweet Spirit might work for you. It has huge, extremely fragrant blooms that are sometimes dark pink and sometimes cherry red. It is very cold hardy and has a nice bush shape. Bliss Parfuma also does well in containers but is more in the apricot-pink range. Although I have not grown them yet, the new Austin roses Eustacia Vye and Gabriel Oak look perfect for containers.

One of my favorite roses for a container is Bolero, but it is white, sometimes with a blush of pink.
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At the moment, Happy Child is impossible to get anywhere. I've been looking for it the last few years. Julia Childs is a heavy bloomer, but I don't think the smaller flower size and coarser style will go well with your other roses. Of the three I recommended, Charles Darwin would be most size appropriate between Sharifa Asma & Poseidon. Charlotte grows bigger, as does Pat Austin, while Golden Celebration grows biggest. In your climate you can prune any of them down to size, but some more than others. According to his newest catalogue, none of Austin's yellows are super hardy, but ALL of his roses are rated zone 4 if the plants are own-root and buried deep with winter protection. YMMV. Kordes roses in general are just superb, healthy, & hardy garden plants, he must have testing grounds in Scandinavia or something: https://www.chambleeroses.com/order/Kordes®/ http://www.hortico.com/roses/hkordes.htm https://palatineroses.com/roses (search: fairy tale)
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hugogurll
29 days ago
Steve, A lot depends on your location. Dee-lish makes a robust big plant in the mild climate of So Cal. It would not be suitable for a container, unless its a really big container. You might look at Our Lady of Guadalupe - profuse bloomer, lovely color, nice compact habit, perfect for a pot.
strawchicago z5
29 days ago
last modified: 29 days ago
Comte de Chambord is one-tenth the size of Dee-lish but 10 times higher quality fragrance. Comte de Chambord needs fast drainage in a high-rain climate to stay healthy (like an air-pot), or extra holes drilled at the sides & bottom of pot. Comte has the most heavenly scent among my 140+ own-roots and 25+ grafted-on-Dr.Huey roses (for the past 25 years).

Comte is hardy to zone 4 & very compact & small for the pot, very fast repeat. Three flushes in my short zone 5a summer, best as own-root:

Below pic. showing Comte (dark pink) bloom being just as big as Princess Charlene de Monaco (light pink on right), and Golden Celebration.

Best health for Comte is NO COW MANURE, but high potassium fertilizer:
rosecanadian
29 days ago
last modified: 29 days ago
Wow!!! I'm so glad I ordered one!! Your CdC blooms are insanely beautiful, Straw!!
Steve Mazza
Original Author
29 days ago
last modified: 29 days ago
Thank you all for these helpful suggestions! I looked into each one, and I have some thoughts about them. I will sum up with a shortlist at the end of the post.

Also, I didn't mention before, but this rose will be sharing a patio with two Lady Emma Hamilton roses and a Neil Diamond rose. I know Neil Diamond is a bit polarizing, but it's meant to be in its own corner with some other white & red plants. Regarding hardiness, I am space limited, so I don't want to get into pulling pots inside for stretches of the winter. The LEH roses may be borderline (sigh).

...

Thoughts on the suggestions:

Kordes Veranda series: These look really beautiful. However, they all seem to be pretty much scentless except for:
- Cream Veranda: Seems nice, but color is not quite what I am looking for, and perhaps not that fragrant.
- Bliss Parfuma - Full blooms, looks pretty nice. A bit larger shrub than Cream Veranda.
Meilland:
- Sweet Spirit: Very intriguing. I like the hot red/pink color. Bloom form seems pretty good. The fragrance is reportedly very good. I question how small this one stays.
- Bolero: Seems like a nice small shrub, which is good. I have heard a lot of good things about it, including fragrance. The blooms don't grab me too much, but they look good against the glossy foliage.
David Austin:
- Eustacia Vye: Flowers don't grab me, but the fragrance sounds nice. Hardiness sounds solid. Not too sold on the form of the shrub, from pictures I found elsewhere from DA's website.
- Gabriel Oak: The intense color looks really nice, and fragrance sounds good. Same concern about the form of the shrub.
Both of these DA roses look good, but they are newish, so I haven't been able to read much of other peoples' experience with them. I also kind of want something non-Austin, as I already have one.

Jackson & Perkins:
- Our Lady of Guadalupe: Seems pretty decent all around, but doesn't particularly grab me.
Other:
- Comte de Chambord: The fragrance sounds amazing! The blooms are huge and rather pretty. The shrub form looks pretty good. (Though the big, matte leaves are a little unusual - I guess it's just how Portland roses are?)
...

I came across another few options that seemed interesting, but these are also rather new and I don't see many comments about them:

David Austin:
- Harlow Carr: This rose looks pretty nice, with a more intense color than Eustacia Vye, and blooms are on the smaller side. Very thorny. The form of the shrub seems a bit more even than the other 2 DA roses mentioned above. The foliage reminds me a bit of that Comte de Chambord ... a possible ancestor? Harlow Carr is supposedly very fragrant with a "pure old rose" scent.
Ping Lim:
- Easy Elegance Calypso: This one really looks pretty to me, and a very prolific bloomer for some. (https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.306378) Supposed to be very compact. Good hardiness (zone 4A). If any shortcoming, it may be lack of fragrance (not much mention of it).
Weeks:
- Sultry Night (https://www.springhillnursery.com/product/sultry-night-shrub-rose?p=0439751&pid=82555): Bold color, big clusters of blooms, and sweet fragrance ... but there's literally one photo of this rose online. I guess I don't quite trust it yet. Actually sold own-root, which is interesting for something from the "mainstream" growers.
...

My shortlist:
- Sweet Spirit (Zone 5, available own-root at Heirloom & High Country)
- Comte de Chambord (Zone 4, out of stock at DA, Heirloom, and Rogue Valley; available own-root at Roses Unlimited SC)
- Harlow Carr (Zone 4 or 5, available probably grafted at David Austin, own-root at Heirloom)
If anyone has any additional info to help decide among these 3, it would be welcomed!
Moses, Western PA., zone 5/6, USA
29 days ago
last modified: 29 days ago
Steve,

I assume the container grown roses will remain outdoors year round. Therefore look for extra winter hardy varieties so that winter kill is minimized. The largest pots you can afford will go a long way to providing not only ample root growing room, but help in increasing winter survivability.

Dee-Lish is very vertical in growth habit and is also tall, at 5'. I think it would look lanky container grown. My 4 bushes of Dee-Lish are all in ground, and here in zone 6b their winter hardiness is good, but not winter hardy to their tips. Enough survives to leave a nicely formed 'after-spring-pruning,' bush.

I think the Austin rose, Olivia Rose, would work well for you. Also, Bolero and Bliss, recommended by Chris, above, are both very hardy for me, and fragrant+. The OGR, Jacques Cartier, aka. Marchesa Bocella, is super winter hardy here, powerfully fragrant, very disease free and a well formed, repeat blooming bush here....easy grower.

Give Pinkerbelle, Apricot Candy, and Pretty Lady Rose considerations...good growers, tough, and readily available.

The German rose breeding house, Kordes, has many great, very winter hardy, fragrant, disease free bushes. Their introductions win the German, in ground rose trial, ADR, frequently.

Any rose designated as an ADR is worth a serious look. One in particular, Savannah, I believe stands out in meeting your needs, as do Wedding Bells and Pink Enchantment.

Moses
Steve Mazza thanked Moses, Western PA., zone 5/6, USA
strawchicago z5
28 days ago
last modified: 27 days ago
Savannah is GIANT in my zone 5a at 6' x 4', even if brutally pruned. Jacques Cartier was too big at 5' tall so I gave it away. Pretty Lady Rose died twice in my zone 5a, even when buried deep in the ground.

Apricot Candy is winter-hardy at rose park for many years. Hoang Ton mentioned that Olivia Rose throws big octopus canes, so did Khalid in zone 9b at 5' x 4'.

Bolero is compact & short & fragrant for the pot. Wedding Bells was huge in a pot at Home Depot (no scent). Dee-lish is 5' x 3' in my zone 5a. Mine is 7th-year own-root:
Steve Mazza thanked strawchicago z5
rosecanadian
28 days ago
Straw - I would love to have a rose bush look like that!! Incredibly beautiful with so many blooms! Well done! :) :)
strawchicago z5
27 days ago
last modified: 27 days ago
Steve: Saw Cream Veranda in a pot at HomeDepot, I didn't like its artificial fruity scent, so I didn't buy it. Easy Elegance Calypso is VERY IMPRESSIVE (tons of blooms) at rose park, but zero scent.

Bliss Perfuma is recommended by Pat Henry of Roses Unlimited for constant blooming, health, and scent. Didn't buy it since I have too many pale pinks.

Harlow Carr is known for its nasty thorns. I grow the nastiest thorns: Princess Ann, Strike it Rich, Radio Times, Orchid Romance BUT Harlow Carr pic. of its nasty thorns scared me. Nippstress in zone 5 grows 60+ Austins, and she mentioned disliking Harlow Carr the most, so I never grow that one.
Steve Mazza thanked strawchicago z5
kidhorn2
27 days ago
You typically should subtract a zone when potting vs putting in the ground. So I would look for anything Zone 5 or lower. Of course, the bigger the pot, the better the protection,
Aaron Rosarian Zone 5b
27 days ago
I'm sad I didn't grab comte de chambord when ARFR had it. I sat and pondered for too long!
rosecanadian
27 days ago
Aaron - that's too bad. I missed out on an Evelyn. Hopefully we can get them next year.
strawchicago z5
26 days ago
last modified: 26 days ago

In above bouquet, Clothilde Soupert are the small light pinks, Evelyn is the largest pink. Bi-color bud is Louis Estes. All are hardy to zone 5, but Clothilde Soupert is most fragrant and smallest for the pot. Clothilde Soupert is also thornless. Evelyn is 10 times bigger than Clothilde Soupert & more thorny & peachy scent. I enjoy Clothilde Soupert's old rose scent more than any Austins.

LongAgoRoses has Pink Soupert, which is nicer color than white Clothilde Soupert, also Sweet Chariot (very fragrant and winter-hardy for the pot). Also Honeysweet (Buck rose hardy to zone 4, fragrant, orange color, very small at 1' x 1' for a friend nearby). Iowa Belle is a bi-color pink, thornless hybrid tea (Buck roses are hardy in zone 5).

http://www.longagoroses.com/040922_Inventory.pdf

Rouge Royal is very fragrant & small for the pot, but it's a blackspot fest in high-rain climate. Still remember in late fall I had both Rouge Royal and Tess of d'Ubervilles in pots. Tess was 100% healthy with twice more blooms than Rouge Royal. Tess had a nice myrrh and old rose scent with potting soil, and it's very compact & small as 3rd year own-root at 2' x 2'. Winter-survival for Tess is much better than Rouge Royal (die to the crown in my zone 5a), while Tess is green to the tip.

LongAgoRoses had Tess of d'Ubervilles in stock (the last time I checked was April 1). Tess is an Austin climber, but very small as own-root. In hot summer, my hybrid teas shot up to 6 feet, while Tess remains at 2.5 feet max. Tess is well-known for health & fast repeat & many blooms in high-rain climate. It looked better in a pot (cascading down), than my planting in the ground making it climb against the wall.
rosecanadian
26 days ago
Straw - what a bouquet!!! I love them all and would be hard pressed to choose a favorite!! :) :) It looks to me like there's 4 rose varieties there...what is the rose under Evelyn? Is it an unopened Evelyn or a different variety?

Your Tesses are so beautiful!! I love that stuffed look!
Aaron Rosarian Zone 5b
26 days ago
@rosecanadian I highly recommend going the custom propagation route if Peter Schneider will ship to Canada. you'd be surprised how quickly the time goes by.
strawchicago z5
22 days ago
last modified: 22 days ago
Carol: the pink roses under Evelyn is Gene Boerner (thornless that's vigorous in my zone 5a for the past 8 years). Gene has zero scent.

Steve Mazza LongAgoRoses takes orders for this year only, but won't for next year. She will sell on eBay instead. Last year she sold Clothilde Soupert for only $14 with $12 shipping cost per 4 roses, versus Clothilde Soupert is sold on eBay right now for $30.

Still kick myself for NOT ordering Austin Roses for only $22 per own-root from Roses Unlimited when there was rumor that RU can't sell Austin roses.
rosecanadian
17 days ago
Aaron - I couldn't find whether he ships to Canada. Doubtful...nobody ships to Canada. LOL I do love his book, Right Rose Right Place.

Straw - oh, the beautiful Gene Boerner. :)
Steve Mazza
Original Author
15 days ago
last modified: 15 days ago
Thanks for your help! I decided to give Comte De Chambord a try this summer. The damask fragrance intrigues me. I ordered it from RU and I expect to get it in a few weeks (they don't ship to my region until after Mother's day).

It was really hard to narrow it down. I appreciate all the suggestions. I still want to grow so many other plants - Sweet Spirit, Bolero, Easy Elegance Calypso, Pinkerbelle, Olivia Rose Austin ... if I had more space, I would have bought all of them!!!

Edit to add more that I want to try: Variegata di Bologna, Scepter'd Isle, Earth Angel, Oso Easy Italian Ice ... ah, the list goes on. :)

Moses, you are correct that I am planning to leave the pots outside in the winter. I know it's not ideal, but it's the situation I have to deal with for now. I just threw out my 1-year-old Zephirine Drouhin rose after deciding it wasn't coming back to life. It was too happy in the mild early winter we had, and it leafed back out in January. A couple of freezes put a stop to that, and the plant never recovered. It never even got below 10F as far as I know. ZD "should" be hardy to much colder temperatures, but I guess it just hit the plant at the wrong time.

I am going to try pruning them so a 5-gallon bucket will fit over each one. Maybe that will help them go and stay dormant in addition to protecting them from the cold and wind.
Nippstress Nebraska z5
13 days ago
Good choice for one to start with - after Straw's comments I'm putting Comte de Chambord on my short list too. Your alternative roses are all strong growers for me if in good spots - Pinkerbelle is particularly hardy though the blooms are small (and I can't tell if 90% of roses are fragrant).

My only edit to your secondary list is not to waste limited garden space on Variegata di Bologna. I planted her for the beauty of the striped blooms, and if she actually had a decent flush in her once-blooming season (like Veilchenblau does) she'd earn her keep. Sadly, she has fleeing "blink and you miss it" blooms for a week at most and is a gangly unattractive scrawny thing the rest of the year. Not necessarily cane hardy which is a bad thing for a once bloomer. I've kept mine because I have the space, and she might be better grafted, but all the others you list are much better.

I grow all your other alternatives and for bloom power and hardiness, I'd go with Earth Angel (but she gets tall), Olivia Rose Austin (massive 5-6' bush each way in poor conditions), Scepter'd Isle (also 4-5' but narrow) for bigger bushes, and PInkerbelle and Oso Easy Italian Ice for smaller ones. The latter might not be entirely hardy in a pot but it should survive. I agree that ZD is barely ground hardy own root in z6 and not pot-worthy - the colder zone rankings it can get are optimistic in my view. I've seen a robust grafted one here in my z5 that was mostly tip hardy, but it's not one I'd put in a pot.

Cynthia
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Second-guessing my rose order

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summercloud -- NC zone 7b

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