I think the whole problem here is that we are trying to compare apples to oranges. HT's and Shrub roses are two different classes for a reason. If you are expecting HTs to grow and bloom in the same manner as Shrub roses then you surely will be disappointed. Same is true the other way around. If you are expecting Shrub roses to give you the large beautifully formed blooms of an HT you'll be disappointed too. You can not compare them to each other. That's unfair to both classes. In my experience if you try to even compare one HT against another you come up perplexed. EVERY variety of rose is DIFFERENT. They each have their own habits and no two are alike. You need to just enjoy and appreciate each one for it's own unique characteristics.

The following was stated by michaelg: "Our resident expert Ann says that plants are usually not cured by removing a cane at the base. If you catch it early when only one cane shows symptoms, she recommends splitting an own-root plant's crown and throwing away half the root system along with half of the top growth." H.Kuska comment: can you please supply a link for that statement so that it can be put into context? Does the above recommendation apply to all roses at all times in the growing season, or to only one (or a few types of roses such as climbers but not other types such as hybred teas, does it apply only to own root roses but not grafted roses, etc? An example of an actual quote that she has made recently: "Posted by anntn6b z6b TN (My Page) on Thu, Oct 11, 12 at 23:11 Henry, ................................... Cutting off an infected cane HAS to be done before the virus moves down into the roots (assuming stem meristem infection) and back out. I've saved several roses from different classes in my yard by catching the problem when only a single leaf node (or three on one side of the cane) were infected in fall. I saved an American Pillar in spring when it was out on a cane about ten feet from the roots. I've never saved a HT, and I've only seen RRD on HTs in spring. That may have something to do with the transmission times in fall to late fall." http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/roses/msg101551485093.html?19 ---------------------------------------- The next 2 are posts that you recently made concerning cutting off canes in one thread ( http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/roses/msg0920343630587.html ) : "Posted by michaelg z6B NC Mts (My Page) on Mon, Sep 3, 12 at 9:45 A cluster of shoots and with crumpled leaves ( different from equally young growth on the same variety), these are additional RRD symptoms. If you remove such suspicious growth with pruners, be sure to sterilize them and bag the trimmings. Also you should take the underlying cane down to grade immediately." --------------------------------------- "Posted by michaelg z6B NC Mts (My Page) on Mon, Sep 3, 12 at 12:40 KR, What I do if I have strong suspicion but am not fully convinced is to cut the plant down, removing most of the cane and all foliage, and see what grows back. I just dug a plant yesterday that came back funny. Another one that I cut back at the same time looks fine. The latter previously had probable RRD growth high on only one cane." --------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- Ann's E-book is in a format that is difficult to search (I recommend a PDF format.). http://www.rosegeek.com/id5.htm In Chapter 2 she states: "A single symptom does not make a confirmation of RRD. When the growth character of a cultivar is known, appearance of multiple RRD symptoms will alert the rose owner to possible danger. Some symptoms of RRD resemble herbicide damage; a thorough search of the area around the roses for signs of herbicide use must allow for long distance herbicide drift - especially in warm weather. A rose bush outgrows herbicide damage, RRD infections persist from year to year until the death. Roses likewise outgrow �blind shoots� but the blind shoot looking growth on a rose in Georgia became more symptomatic of RRD two months later (Fig. 6). Weather damage in spring or fall can also cause contorted new growth, but comparison with growth on other roses in the same garden can be used evaluate the problem. If the damage was weather caused, the rose will out grow it. Because ot the chance of false diagnosis, each rosarian needs to think about the problem and decide in advance a course of action. Then when RRD enters a garden, the hard decisions have already been made. If RRD has not been reported nearby, and there are symptoms that suggest it, you may choose to reduce the mite population that transmits the infection. Digging up and isolating the questionable rose should also be considered. In addition, I would (and have had to) spray the bush in question and the surrounding roses at ten day intervals with Cygon 2E (following label precautions) while waiting for confirmation of RRD. Cygon 2E is the only spray that will kill the eriophyte mites. They are different from spider mites. Most chemicals approved for treatment of spider mites are not effective for the mites that transmit RRD. At present (2007) Cygon 2E is not readily available. There have been no tests to see if other miticides kill P. fructiphilus. Avid is approved for general use against eriophyid mites, but its efficacy in fighting RRD vectors is unknown." H.Kuska comment: I interpret the above to suggest: "Digging up and isolating the questionable rose should also be considered." But that nothing was said about cane cutting. ---------------------------------- In Chapter 4 the following appears: "When I find a RRD infected plant in our rose garden, it�s rogued out and burned fast. Surrounding roses are examined and sprayed. Canes of nearby roses that a mite could have fallen onto from the infected area (canes under the infection) are also removed. (To do this hurts because I hate to remove a healthy cane, but it's a logical sacrifice)." AND " Leaving a RRD-infected rose in the middle of an otherwise healthy garden is the worst course of action. Spraying the infected plant and surrounding area then rogueing out the bush is still the best course of action, perhaps with the addition of pre-emptive spraying during hot dry spells, especially in late summer, the optimum breeding season for the mites that transmit the virus." -------------------------------------- Also in Chapter 4: Our RRD infections so far: (H.Kuska comment, I will only list the "bushes that relate to cutting off the cane") "'Charles Austin'- we saved the bush by cutting the cane off rapidly fall 2001" "'Rouletti' we hope we have saved this by removing the sick cane early fall 2002" "'Fuschia Meidiland' we cut off the cane, disease came back, it's gone spring 2003" "''Gloire de Dijon' own root, first symptoms near root, one cut back didn't work spring 2005" "'Peter Beales version of Parks Yellow Tea Scented China' spring 2005 first sick out on one long cane, we cut it back, RRD came back fall 2005, we took out half the bush supporting that cane and lost the whole plant fall 2006" "'Golden Salmon Superior' Great ownroot Polyantha; tried removing the sick cane fall 2005 removed spring 2006" "'Seven Sisters' one cane sick, removed it; two canes sick three months later , spring 2006 it's gone" "'American Pillar' one sick cane cut off, so far rest of bush is healthy spring 2006" -------------------------------- Also in Chapter 4: "Case 2 - ONE STRIKE AND YOU'RE OUT Dr. Kent Campbell lives near Bowling Green, Kentucky and has been living with Rose Rosette for a number of years. There are fences near him with wild multiflora and the multiflora is sick with RRD. He can't control the fences on other folks' property, but he can control the effects of the resulting RRD on his roses. He told me about his "One Strike and You're Out" rule. When he sees aberrant growth that he associates with rose rosette on a cane, he cuts that cane back to the bud union. That's strike one. Then he watches the plant. If the plant shows additional aberrant growth, it's out. He estimates that half of his infected roses recover with no additional signs of infection. He has experience and he knows what the disease looks like on the roses he grows. With what he has learned, he continues to grow roses and to enjoy them. In 2001 I asked him to approve the summary above. He replied, "What you have written about me is essentially correct. However, I have mellowed just a tiny bit this spring. If the noted infection is "slight" and the bush is big and otherwise healthy, it becomes more like 3 strikes and you're out. Usually, though, the disease strikes with great force and much of the bush is covered with witches' broom and obvious abhorrent growth quickly." " ----------------------------------- Still in Chapter 4: "I also believe there may be a seasonal element to the success of one strike and you're out. If, and I emphasize If, all the nutrient flow is one directional: roots TO leaves, then cutting a cane may work. If there is a continuing flux-with nutrient interchange roots to leaves to roots on a daily basis then no amount of cutting back may work. We are currently watching our plant of 'Charles Austin' which showed RRD symptoms (Figure 1) at the tip of one cane. We cut the cane off at the base within five minutes of seeing the ugly red growth. We are closely watching the area where the cane was cut next to the soil. I estimate that the growth happened in two days. We seem to have saved the bush; two years after we saw the "rooster tail" the rose remains symptomless." ----------------------------------- Still Chapter 4. "By not removing roses that were known to be infected and trying to allow the maximum bloom from each bush, the entire garden was lost. A garden under this much disease pressure could possibly survive, but I wouldn't even use the "one strike and you're out policy". I would immediately remove suspect plants, which is what happens in our garden (under very low disease pressure) where we have had one half of one percent RRD loss. Something we don't do in our garden, premptive spraying with Cygon, would be advisable under the high disease pressure conditions to which the LMU garden is subject." ----------------------------------- In Chapter 5: " One of the things we have tried to do this summer is to devise a list of subtle early symptoms that would alert a gardener to keep an eye on a particular rose and to know when to spray the mites to prevent potential spread from a suspect bush while it is under observation. This would reduce the chance of over reaction and killing healthy bushes simply because of a blind shoot or other false symptoms." Ann summarises in a FAQ: "FAQ - How do you treat an infected garden": "How do you treat an infected garden? The best course of action if you are convinced one of your roses is infected is to first spray the area with Cygon 2E, then rogue it out and burn it (or bag it and send it to the landfill), and keep a sharp lookout for additional symptoms on other plants, especially on plants adjacent to and downwind of the infected plant. If you have the option, remove any wild roses that might be a source of infection. If you have a rose that is "iffy", that is, it might be sick, but you really don't want to rogue it out, then you may want to place it in isolation. The isolation can be chemical (spray often to make sure no mites from it travel to other roses) or physical (dig it up and keep it away from other roses.). One way that we live with the threat of RRD is to space bushes far enough apart that we can see the individual canes and try to keep canes from one bush from contact with other plants. (This is just hypothetical in our old garden rose beds.) When in doubt, it�s better to dig up, isolate and closely observe a single infected plant. See Chapter 4 for more information." http://www.rosegeek.com/id32.htm --------------------------------------------- H.Kuska comment. One of the advantageous of internet "publication" is that the article can be updated as additional information becomes available. My web page information is at: Here is a link that might be useful: My rose rosette web page

Thank you, Jim and Cottagegarden for reviving this thread. I really appreciate the company of kind, and positive visitors to this forum. Like Cottagegarden, I bought 2 soil-test kits from local stores: Lowe and HomeDepot. They are totally useless and gave false result. Then I paid $20 for EarthCo. (professional soil-testing company) and my soil test came back high pH at 7.7, and deficient in everything, plus barely adequate in calcium ... I was so sure that my soil has plenty of calcium !! I'm next to a limestone quarry. For years I disagree with my neighbor on calcium. He insisted that his tomato in pots are lacking in calcium (blossom end-rot) ... He's right, after seeing how mixing gypsum (calcium sulfate) into the soil made 1st-year band-size La Reine went beserk with buds: due to winter-kill, it's only 8 inch. tall, but with 10 buds !! But the plant is stunt & brown leaves, and the blooms are small. I forgot to give it sulfate of potash (it should be twice more potassium than calcium). Yes to mixing gypsum into planting hole, but no more than 10% (I spent hours researching on the right % to mix in). I broke that rule many times, and end up with stunt plants & leaves showing potassium deficiency. Too much calcium drives down potassium. If you have a large garden, soil can vary: some part can be alkaline if watered frequently with high pH tap water. Most tap water are alkaline, I already tested a few with fish-tank litmus paper, even mineral bottled water has pH over 8. Some part of a garden can be acidic (if get rain water only, pH at 5.6). My soil test recommend mixing sulfur into clay. BAD ADVICE !! That was expensive and killed tons of earthworms. I like gypsum better, less caustic & cheaper ($4 for 25 lb. at Menards). Gypsum is great in breaking up compacted clay, provides calcium, plus de-salt soil. I moved 4 roses this spring: The ones that didn't get gypsum in the planting hole were slower to recuperate. The one that got gypsum in the planting hole, was VERY FAST in pumping out buds. See Duchess de Rohan below, 2 weeks after moving, with lots of buds. I moved that one since it was in too much shade, zero blooms. After moving to more sun, it exploded in buds. A note on moving roses. Roses which are grafted on Dr. Huey is less forgiving in moving. Dr. Huey is a long stick, and it's easy to break the tiny roots at the end. I moved knock-outs grafted on Dr. Huey twice before. Both time they lost all their leaves, and took at least 3 months to get back to normal. With own-root, it's so much easier to move: The roots are cluster: wide & shallow, rather than a long & deep stick like Dr. Huey. I moved at least 10 own-roots for the past 4 years: They recuperate quickly, lose zero leaves, IF THE ORIGINAL SOIL IS LOOSE & FLUFFY, then moving is zero stress. If the original soil is compact, digging them up caused many roots to be broken.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0038071706005190 Trace and nutrient elements in manure, dung and compost samples in Austria Although the high amounts of K and P were beneficial, there were some high concentrations of Na in biogas residues and pig manures. Intense additions of Cu, Zn, and Se are reflected in high loads in the respective excrements, as Austria is a low Se area. Composts and sewage sludges were higher in Al and lithophilic trace elements than were the excrements ... Factor analysis traced phosphates as the main source of Cd. Cr in processed matrices was significantly higher, and abrasion from tools should be considered in future investigations" *** From Straw: antifungal trace elements, listed in the order of most potent: Silver, Mercury, Copper Cu, Cadmium Cd, Chromium Cr, Nickel, Lead, Cobalt, Zinc Zn, Iron, and lastly calcium. Selenium is also a strong anti-fungal agent. My personal experience for the past 6 years: horse manure and chicken manure together works better than applying lime before acidic rain. Have really bad experience testing Encap compost on pots, due to the quick lime. Aluminum is toxic to plants (Milorganite sewage sludge was bad for both my lawn and roses), and I'm glad that chicken manure is high in zinc, copper, and boron. http://www.ontariosoilcrop.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/V2Gen1.pdf "Zinc and Copper are included in monograstric (swine and poultry) diets at much higher levels than minimum requirement for "normal" performance since when fed at higher levels they promote growth. Horse manure samples in the study were particularly high in chromium, nickel, aluminum and iron. The source of nickel and chromium is not clear, but race harness bits used in the industry are often nickel or chrome plated and may have contributed to the concentration of these two metals. " I also checked for trace elements in oyster shell lime: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/18465435_Trace_Metals_in_Oyster_Shells " Measurements using atomic absorption spectrometry have established the prescence of Pb, Hg, Cd, Zn, Cu, and Cr in shells of the oyster Crassostrea virginica in amounts considerably higher than their concentration in sea water." BOS LIME is made from Ocean Shell, (Bluff Oyster Shell / Kina Shell). Trace elements and micro minerals such as Potassium Oxide, Magnesium Oxide, Colbalt, Zinc Oxide ." http://www.boslime.co.nz/pages/products_001.html