Jeri stated: "Henry -- You really are inspiring me to be rude. Please give it a rest already."

H.Kuska reply. I am disappointed whenever anyone is rude.

This was my question: "H.Kuska comment. I know that you stated something along that idea earlier in this thread, but where is this idea challenged? By whom?

A restatement. It is my opinion that no one has challenged that statement in this thread. Did I miss something?

Sammy made the following statement: "I wonder if in years to come, horticulturist will say that we have made huge mistakes, and that there are many variations of what we thought was one problem, and all those roses did not require being pulled."
===============================================
H.Kuska comment. There already is literature to support the "many variations" possibility.
---------------------------------
Of course one is already known - herbicide damage.
-------------------------------

The second is damage caused by a plant specialized bacterium called a phytoplasma. A July 2, 2012 article on Rose Rosette Disease by Dr. Joseph Bischolf states: "Based on some similarities to other better defined pathogens it's believed to be caused by a virus or plant specialized bacterium called a phytoplasma and spread by an eriophyid mite (Phyllocoptes fructiphylus)."
http://anla.org/knowledgecenter/ticker/index.cfm?view=detail&colid=123&cid=329&mid=5415

His credentials are given on the right side in the above link.

In 2010 I started a thread in which some Polish papers and two non Polish reports that a phytoplasma affects roses were introduced.
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/roses/msg0421561629709.html
--------------------------------------
The third find is that tested roses with Rose Rosette Disease type symptoms actually had: "In the process of attempting to identify the rose rosette agent, double-stranded RNA was isolated from several symptomatic Rosa multiflora plants from northwestern Arkansas. The pattern of the dsRNA bands differed among the five samples used in this study, suggesting the presence of several viruses."

http://apsjournals.apsnet.org/doi/abs/10.1094/PDIS-92-12-1706B

Please note in the conclusion section the following: "Just before submission of this manuscript, the complete sequence of RMCV, a virus isolated from R. multiflora showing rose spring dwarf symptoms was published (2). RMCV and the dsRNAs isolated from R. multiflora in Arkansas are the same species because they share 99% nucleotide sequence identity. Cryptic viruses are expected to be symptomless though mild symptoms have been associated with several cryptic viruses (1). The presence of RMCV has been verified in both symptomless and plants infected with two severe diseases of rose, thus, the virus could play a role in the phenotype of these diseases as part of a virus complex. To our knowledge, this is the first report of RMCV in the eastern United States, which is closley related to RMCV from California (2). In the review process of this note, it was brought to our attention that a similar virus named Rose cryptic virus 1 was being investigated in Mississippi (Genbank Accession Nos. EU413666�68), supporting the statement that this virus is probably widespread in Rosa germplasm."

As I have mentioned earlier in this thread (on Oct 17) "I expect/hope that the availability of the specific Rose Rosette Virus test and the research now being done will allow future rose growers to be much more confident in their decisions."

Here is a link that might be useful: link to last paper presented

Yes---that's what I loved about Kippy's post; the double-meaning. And I know Henry's intentions are for the best. I think I just get lost in the way things are conveyed, as I prefer a looser style of dialogue. I read enough technical material throughout the day that when I see it here, I probably go a tad bit postal.

Henry,
Had you gone to the bibliography in the RRD Ebook, you would have 'discovered' the Phytoplasma papers much earlier.
The paper about the ultramicrographs of RRD (at that time) that was done as a Senior thesis had a gentleman as Senior advisor who was the first to identify phytoplasmas in ultramicrographs. I asked him (when we visited them, yes, I have made a slight effort on this) if he saw any evidence of phytoplasmas in the RRD infected New Dawn leaf they studied. He said they saw NONE.
There is also the lack of positive response to streptomycin treatment.

For you to understand the "several Viruses" part of the equation, or to begin to try to understand it, first read the early reports by R. Gergerich et al about what they at first called RV-1. AND pay attention to why they looked at it.

Also look at the papers out of China that lump everything together based only on symptoms that seem to have been caused there by a nearby Pawlonia tree with witches broom.

Are the phytoplasma papers coming out of Kominska's lab germain? Look at the very short history of phytoplasmas. And you might also want to look at the prolific publications coming from that group of scientists who are finding phytoplasmas in huge numbers of plants. Do we grow roses in eastern European green house conditions, where their problem was first seen? I don't, nor do most people on Gardenweb. Maybe you do so it may be applicable to you.

Do you grow roses under a witches broom infected Pawlonia tree? If so, you may need to do something about it. From the land of Pawlonia gone wild (near me), so far, I've seen no witches brooms on the miles of them along I-40.

I would suggest you go to the scientists and learn enough to try to tell the world about the difference between the phytoplasmas and bacteria (and you might want to look at micovirses as well.)

What matters, to me and a few others, is that roses are sickening from a really nasty disease. I would like to think I've helped a few people keep growing roses.

There is a wealth of information in the Bibliography of my ebook. The Kaminska paper has been there for quite a while. And that is THE phytoplasma paper that tried to explain the greenhouse problem they were having in Europe.

Ann, I have been aware of the phytoplasma papers since they first appeared. I feel that I have also kept up with all of the published Gergerich, Tzanetakis. Martin papers. For example concerning RV-1 ("The new virus we isolated from rose is related most closely to the blackberry chlorotic ringspot virus and is considered a strain of that virus. This virus is not responsible for the rosette disease of rose." This quote is from their 1996 paper. See my web page for my discussion of blackberry chlorotic virus: http://home.roadrunner.com/~kuska/Blackberry%20chlorotic%20ringspot%20virus%20(BCRV).htm
--------------------------------------
The following is a phytoplasma paper on Rosa alba that appeared after your 2007 update.

"First report of association of �Candidatus Phytoplasma asteris� (16SrI group) with little leaf disease of rose (Rosa alba) in India
Y. Chaturvedi1, M. Singh1

Journal of Phytopathology, Volume 156, pages 93�98, (2008).

"Rose (Rosa alba) is grown in Gorakhpur, India, for ornamental and essential oil extraction purposes. Symptoms of little leaf disease, yellowing and shortening of internodes were observed in different rose gardens during June 2008. Leaf samples were collected from four plants each with, or without symptoms. Total DNA was extracted and assayed for phytoplasma 16S rRNA in a direct polymerase chain reaction (PCR) using universal primers PI/P6, followed by a nested PCR with R16F2n/R16R2 primers, yielding amplicons from only the samples with symptoms.

Three nested PCR amplicons were cloned (pGEM-T Easy Vector, Promega), sequenced, and the consensus sequence deposited in GenBank (Accession No. FJ429364). BLAST analysis revealed the highest identity (99%) of the R. alba little leaf phytoplasma with those of group 16SrI �Ca. Phytoplasma asteris�, confirmed by phylogenetic analysis (MEGA 4�0).

The group 16SrI has been reported from rose in China (Gao et al., 2008), and has impacted in India since its record in sesame (Khan et al., 2007) and desert rose (Adenium obesum) (Raj et al., 2007). However, this is the first report of a �Ca. Phytoplasma asteris�-related strain affecting R. alba in India."

--------------------------------------

The point I am trying to make is that there are known similar problems that the normal rose grower can misdiagnose as rose rosette virus. We both recommend cutting off the infected cane as a precaution. I give links to both of your articles on my rose rosette web page. What is the difference in our positions?

"As I have mentioned earlier in this thread (on Oct 17) "I expect/hope that the availability of the specific Rose Rosette Virus test and the research now being done will allow future rose growers to be much more confident in their decisions."

I've no idea where Henry gardens. In fact, I do not know if he gardens. I do not know if he has ever encountered a rose with RRD or ambiguous RRD/herbicide malformation.

It is evident, however, that he invests a staggering amount of time noodling around the internet in search of obscure ephemera that may be supportive (if only tangentially) of his quest to pooh-pooh our RRD concerns. As I read his pontifications here about our gardening decisions, it occurs to me that it might be of passing interest if he were to reveal the percentage of time he spends conducting his online research, verses the percentage of time he spends working in/caring for/observing his own garden (assuming he has one).

There are a few certainties that almost everyone acknowledges: RRD is a very real problem. RRD has been a problem for quite a while. RRD seems to become more of a problem with each passing season. There is much that remains to be learned about this scourge -- but until we learn all there is to know about RRD, what are we to do? Follow Henry's cavalier "wait and see, maybe it is/maybe it isn't" approach?

Those of us who have witnessed RRD firsthand KNOW that Vicky provided a photo of an RRD-infected rose. It seems to me that Henry is a contrarian solely for the sake of contrarianism. Unfortunately, there are those confronting a stressed rose(s) who may listen to -- and act on -- his nebulous opinions, straining to embrace the slim chance that someone somewhere in their general vicinity just might possibly have applied an herbicide at some point in the fairly recent past. The stark fact is that there are times when risking an overreaction is the most reasoned and prudent course of action to take.

I do not think I'm being melodramatic in (again) stating my belief that the damage Henry's wait and see response may already have done, and may continue to be doing, is incalculable.

Equally incalculable, IMO, is the contribution that Ann has made, and continues to make, in creating an awareness of the problem at hand, monitoring the spread of the disease, and keeping us abreast of RRD-related developments.

"The point I am trying to make is that there are known similar problems that the normal rose grower can misdiagnose as rose rosette virus. We both recommend cutting off the infected cane as a precaution. I give links to both of your articles on my rose rosette web page. What is the difference in our positions?"

There is one thing in jaxondal's list of the things we know about RRD that is missing. We know that at this time the most likely way to prevent a contagious infection is to eleminate that which is infected. Removing an infected cane is not fool proof and while waiting to see if it worked your other roses are at a higher risk than if you had removed the whole plant. The difference in your postions is that cutting just an infected cane is not the best and most certain course of action--it is an action fraught with risk--Ann knows this. Henry's presumption seems to be that RRD is not high risk with devastating potential.

Jaxondal and Subk3 --

THANK YOU!!!

Jeri

jaxondel, Ann saw the same pictures in this thread as I saw. This is what she posted: "Yes, sorry, but it is.
I know because my Mary M got it about four years ago and had nearly identical symptoms. Also in fall.
"If it's own root, you could try to save the uninfected side; if it's grafted (as mine was) cutting off only the infected cane didn't work for me, as it came back with the new growth the next spring."
--------------------------------------
I first posted: "I suggest that anytime anyone asks about possible Rose Rosette Virus that they include the history of herbicide use in the area."

and then later after getting a yes answer. "vickysgarden, because of the timing of the "infections" I suspected a spring and then a fall "weed and feed" possibility. If that is the cause, it should go away if the applications of herbicides stop. As a precaution I would recommend cutting off the bad cane at its emergence from the ground."
-----------------------------------
Please see everyrose's comment in the following thread:
(rather than cut and past it here, the thread is short, so please read it there)

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/roses/msg101547265198.html?6

-------------------------------------
Another post where there is concern that damage could be from herbidide:
"Posted by seil z6b MI (My Page) on Sun, Apr 1, 12 at 18:14

if it's against the fence you need to check with the neighbor on the other side of that fence and find out if they have used any herbicides lately."

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/rosesant/msg0414491111284.html
----------------------------------
Also see: "Posted by flaurabunda 6a, Central IL (My Page) on Tue, Aug 7, 12 at 10:35
................I freaked out thinking that the gorgeous group had RRD earlier this summer, but I didn't call anyone or post about it. The city seems to be pretty lax & takes the easy way out of plant care; scatter some water around, mow over things, hope for the best. I figured if some unknown woman called them, the call would go ignored. Anyway, I kept an eye on the ones that looked like your photo and they appear fine now."
And in the same thread:
"Posted by dublinbay z6 KS (My Page) on Tue, Aug 7, 12 at 15:00

"Until one of the experts comes along, I recommend that you rip that questionable cane out down as low, as close to the crown, as you can get. Then play the waiting game--if no strange growth returns, whatever it was is gone. If it returns, then start really worrying about how serious it is--that is when you need the expert's diagnosis."

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/roses/msg0817215826277.html
--------------------------
"Posted by kentucky_rose Z6 KY (My Page) on Tue, Jul 31, 12 at 15:15

Yesterday I saw what may be early stages of RRD and cut it out. If anything weird or suspicous-looking grows from the bush after this, it is out of here. I'm hoping it's herbicide drift or if RRD, I caught it early enough to save the bush. Time will tell. My bush is Pat's Choice. Then later I visited a friend's rose garden and her Chris Everett had multiple infected canes of RRD and based on the growth it had been there a while. I told her to dig it up, bag it, and toss in regular garbage."

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/roses/msg071955158386.html
-----------------------------------
"Posted by michaelg z6B NC Mts (My Page) on Mon, Sep 3, 12 at 9:45

A cluster of shoots and with crumpled leaves ( different from equally young growth on the same variety), these are additional RRD symptoms. If you remove such suspicious growth with pruners, be sure to sterilize them and bag the trimmings. Also you should take the underlying cane down to grade immediately."
"Posted by michaelg z6B NC Mts (My Page) on Mon, Sep 3, 12 at 12:40

KR, What I do if I have strong suspicion but am not fully convinced is to cut the plant down, removing most of the cane and all foliage, and see what grows back. I just dug a plant yesterday that came back funny. Another one that I cut back at the same time looks fine. The latter previously had probable RRD growth high on only one cane."

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/roses/msg0920343630587.html
--------------------------------------

subk3 stated: "it is an action fraught with risk--Ann knows this. Henry's presumption seems to be that RRD is not high risk with devastating potential."

H.Kuska comment. I am surprised that you do not see the simularity between Ann's "cut cane" recommendations and mine.
Regarding the rest of your statement about your interpretation of my "presumption", please do not try to base a discussion on "seems to be" type statements.

If you have a particular statement that you wish to challenge, I request the courtesy of you putting it in quotes.

Henry, since proving the similarity of RRD and Herbicide is your mission, why not set up your own scientific test. You could purchase several knock out roses, isolate each one in a controlled green house zone, and test each rose individually in a manner to insure no cross contamination with a variety of herbicides. You could spray roundup, drench with roundup dilutions, leave down wind a block and spray, water with weednfeed or what ever chemicals you think might cause RRD damage. Document the damage with photographs daily or weekly as needed and compare to a knock out rose with RRD.

You would then have images and your own data to go with all of the internet searches. You could then write your own ebook and just drop your link to your book rather than all of these "quotes" you post here.

Just as an fyi; my boss who uses roundup regularly and had his garden staff use ru right next to his driveway lined roses, there was some red damage on the roses shortly after spraying on a windy say. BUT it did not take long for the damaged cane to look more normal and green like the rest of the plant. Today, a few months later, the worst cane looks more like it had a bout of mildew damage.

Kippy-the-Hippy stated: "Henry, since proving the similarity of RRD and Herbicide is your mission, why not set up your own scientific test."

H.Kuska reply. I feel that there are enough articles by scientists in the field already available.

I have tried to sumarize a select subgroup of them on my web page on the subject. I of course will update it as new information becomes available.

-------------------------------

On some of my other rose related web pages I include something like the following:

"This page gives the information that I have collected from my own literature searches and from others posting on the internet. Please let me know if you feel anything is not clear or is not addressed at all as I am continually updating/modifying it as I get feedback."

I will add the above to the rose rosette virus page the next time that I update it.

Here is a link that might be useful: my rose rosette virus web page

Henry, you keep referring to other peoples articles, why not work on a paper of your own with your own photos. If nothing else it might prove to YOU that you are either right or wrong.

Google already does web searches. If you were satisfied with those, you would need to do no more than drop the link to your website with all of those rather than all the quotes and replies with yet more web searched quotes.

But I think I am wasting my time; there are those that do and those that talk (or type)

Henry, isn't it true that you are a well respected scientist? As I recall, you have spent your life in scientific investigations of some sort. Years ago a fellow poster mentioned your credentials, but I would like to be reminded. At that time I made the mistake of criticizing you because I could not understand you. I asked you to speak in plain English. That was maybe 10 years ago.

Another person told me about you, and in time you were encouraged to tell what your credentials are. I wish you would remind us.

I am only a school teacher who is suspicious. I know the weather can have effects on roses that nobody here seems to mention. I know that there have been drugs that were supposed to be vital to many of us who have gotten older. Then suddenly there is a big "Wooops", and we must stop them immediately, and hope no damage has occurred.

I have always had so much respct for you, and wish you would blow your own horn a little.

I am not trying to diminish Ann's knowledge, but I feel that many are getting too wrapped up in these disagreements. Gee. We all have a life. I think this thread has been very interesting. But in the end, I will do exactly what I want to do in my garden. And I hope through threads like this I will have more information than I had in the past.

We all are who we are. You are a scientist?? I like your information and your links.

Sammy

In a post logged in above on Mon Oct 22, 12 @ 13:30, Henry opted to sign off thusly: "Henry Kuska Ph.D retired Chemistry Associate Professor". I, for one, choose to take that at face value the claim that he does have an earned Ph.D., and that he is an Associate Professor of Chemistry, Retired.

Among the regulars here, Henry is not the sole possessor of credentials.

sammy, I was one of the founders of the ARS web page, for awhile I held the title of ARS Consulting Rosarian for scientific studies (or some such title), I served 2 terms on the ARS National Historical Committee, I have an invited article in the 1996 American Rose Annual, "Roses on the Internet", for a time I was the Editor of The Akron Rose Rambler (around 200 subscriptions), I belonged to 2 local rose societies and served as president of one (2 terms - the legal limit). I was a member of the ARS, Canadian, British Royal National Rose Society, and the American Rose Hybridizers Society. I grew about 1000 roses many of which were my own creation (I hybridized new roses). Help-Me-Find will show you a few of those. My web page will show you many more. Although I am proud of the roses that I hybridized, In the 1990s I ran a (free) e-mail rose breeding scientific literature "course". I feel that my major contribution to hybridizing was my experiments to improve germination using digestive enzymes and preventing damping off with the use of dilute hydrogen peroxide solutions. I am also proud of my contributions to the knowledge of one rose virus' (PNRSV) temperature behavior.

My first mention of Rose Rosette Disease on the internet (that I can document - I have have lost much information due to disk crashes and I have eliminated all of my earlier paper copies due to final downsizing) was on May 24, 1995 in rec.gardens.roses

1994-5 rose literature Henry Kuska FMFR...@prodigy.com rec gardens roses The following was published in the June 1995 issue of the Akron Rose Rambler. 1994-95 Rose Literature (through April) AUTHOR(S) Vainstein, ..... AUTHOR(S) TITLE Rose rosette research resumes. PUBLISHED IN American Nurseryman v. 179 (Apr. 1 ' 94) p69.
May 24 1995 by Henry Kuska - 1 message - 1 author"
---------------------------

Here is a link that might be useful: my home page

Sammy,

You might be interested in, perhaps even persuaded by, the opinions of another very learned person, one who is widely recognized as a rose expert: Malcolm Manners, PhD. Dr. Manners is (full) Professor and Chair of the Department of Horticultural Science at Florida Southern, an institution renowned both here and abroad for its horticultural programs. He was very recently honored by the World Federation of Roses when his name was added to that organization's roster of "Great Rosarians of the World".

Time and again on this forum and on the Antique Roses Forum, Dr. Manners has stepped in to correct assertions made by Henry Kuska on a range of topics, including RRD and RMV. You might find it enlightening to do a search for some of those threads. IIRC, the exchanges on the Antique Roses Forum are particularly revealing.

windeaux, yes, there are many threads where Dr. Manners and I have differed on important points concerning Rose Mosaic Virus. As is my norm I tried to document my views/interpretations.

Please post a link(s) to discussions where Dr. Manners has challenged my views on RRV (as you have stated above - "correct assertions made by Henry Kuska on a range of topics, including RRD.....".

One post closer too 100....

Odd how most of these loooonnnnggg threads have so many posts by one person

I know about Dr. Manners. I remember seeing his ring of 12 Mrs. B.R. Cants. I pay attention to whatever he writes as well as some people who are not taking part in this thread.

My disappointment is in the loss of so many posters when there are disagreements. People give their views, then suddenly the forum "goes viral", people take sides, and often feel free to ridicule Henry Kuska, Dr. Henry Kuska, a college professor for 30 years.

I needed to have my facts before I posted about Henry, but he has impressive credentials. That does not make him smarter than Ann or Dr. Manners or anyone else. However, every one of us deserves to be treated with respect. I am a Spanish teacher, and do not have a clue about some the posts the others are talking about. I cannot understand it. That makes me a better teacher, and does not help my garden.

I think about some very good people who had valuable input, and have left. That is sad. Why do any of us care enough to get mad? I see the conflict between the two experts, but I also see that some of us are taking sides. I don't think we should do that. I like Henry, and I like Ann. They are both experts and I think they should have their say without being disrespected.

I am not sure that threads stop at 100 anymore.

Sammy

I did not mean that people have quit the forum over this issue now. I meant that in the past we have lost valuable people over conflicts. I miss them, and wish they were still posting.

(I guess I would like to edit.)
Sammy

I'm not 'taking sides'. I take exception to anyone who consistently tries to skew the discussion to their pet agenda. I do know that sometimes people see RU damage to roses and think it's RRD. I even talked someone in my rose society from digging up a rose because it looked like RU damage, not RRD.

But when presented with overwhelming evidence of RRD in the form of red, distorted growth, hyper thoriness, and to STILL insist that it is herbicide damage is not just annoying, it's negligent, IMO.

I understand that Henry has credentials, but to me, he seems not to see the forest for the trees. What does compost made in Vermont have to do with someone's roses across the country? We all know that herbicides can cause damage to roses. But most of us also know that it is not the same as RRD and to confuse the issue risks that real cases of RRD will be left in a garden to infect other roses.

And let's remember that it was scientists at a university that implemented RRD with the promise that it wouldn't harm cultivated roses. So excuse me if I take what they now say with a grain of salt.

"...please do not try to base a discussion on "seems to be" type statements.
If you have a particular statement that you wish to challenge, I request the courtesy of you putting it in quotes."

Henry, you likely have over a hundred posts on this subject matter. For you to think that someone who has read many of them hasn't or shouldn't come to some general conclusions about your attitudes and what "seems to be" your thought process is ludicrous. I'm not interested in "challenging you." I'm here for the conversation. The art (not science) of communication takes more into account than specific literal meaning of words.

buford said (without putting what statement of mine in quotes that he is addressing): "But when presented with overwhelming evidence of RRD in the form of red, distorted growth, hyper thoriness, and to STILL insist that it is herbicide damage is not just annoying, it's negligent, IMO."

H.Kuska comment: My statement was: "vickysgarden, because of the timing of the "infections" I suspected a spring and then a fall "weed and feed" possibility. If that is the cause, it should go away if the applications of herbicides stop. As a precaution I would recommend cutting off the bad cane at its emergence from the ground."
Please notice I said "I suspected" and then "as a precaution". This is not the same as: "insist that it is herbicide damage...."

Ann said: "Yes, sorry, but it is.
I know because my Mary M got it about four years ago and had nearly identical symptoms. Also in fall.

If it's own root, you could try to save the uninfected side; if it's grafted (as mine was) cutting off only the infected cane didn't work for me, as it came back with the new growth the next spring."

H.Kuska comment: she did not say cutting off only the infected cane would be negligent. We came from opposite directions, but we both mentioned the same option.
-----------------------------
Please note that I brought up the dangers of atrazine and additional sources of herbicide exposure after the thread issue was settled - vickysgarden had told us that the bush was removed.

I documented that other "experts" than Ann also mentioned the possibility of "cutting the cane off step" (as I documented that she had).

I also documented that other "experts" bring up the possibility of herbicide damage and or cutting the cane as have other participants in this forum in other threads. I presented pictures of how variable herbicide damage could be.
------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
One great thing about Google is that it is easy to find new or changed web pages. This is one that came up:
http://www.nashvillerosesociety.com/Diseases.html
It is by the Nashville Rose Society. It does not allow a direct link but you can get to the Rose Rosette page on the left side.

What is of interest here?

1) "This deadly affliction is 100 percent fatal. So if you see it, just dig up the plant and remove it from the garden as soon as possible, as the mites which spread the infection are present in the plant."
H.Kuska comment. The article did not mention trying the cut route first. No discussion about other possible causes such as herbicide damage
-------------------------
2) "Canes appear overly large and purple or deep red in color"
H.Kuska comment. No allowance that the cane symptoms can vary.
------------------------
3) "The symptoms of this affliction are described as 'virus like', because the exact actual organism which causes Rose Rosette has not actually been identified as of yet."
H.Kuska comment. ???? The September 17, 2012 reference that the paper cites says: " Rose rosette disease (RRD), a disease believed to be caused by the recently identified Rose rosette virus,......"
------------------------------
4) "Hybrid Teas are less likely to be used as hosts by this mite."
H.Kuska comment. Ann, I will leave this one for you.
-----------------------------

5. " This affliction is NOT spread by pruners or by any other known agent besides the tiny mites. So it is not contagious in that way."
   H.Kuska comment. Interesting contrast - always pull out the bush but don't worry about prunning spread. I am not familar with any research concerning spread by prunning. Ann, did Iowa or any other laboratory publish something that I missed?
   ----------------------------

To me the problems with that article, so close to Ann's stomping grounds, illustrate that we are not being successful enough with communicating what science knows and doesn't know about this virus.
-------------------------------------
Did this year's American Rose Society Annual have an update on this topic?

Here is a link that might be useful: Nashville Rose Society article with Sept 2012 reference

I would like to know just how "expert" you are, Dr. Kuska, with RRD. How many roses have you lost to it in your own garden. How many cases have you diagnosed in your neighborhood, in the gardens--on site--of other roses growers.

subk3 stated: "it is an action fraught with risk--Ann knows this. Henry's presumption seems to be that RRD is not high risk with devastating potential."

H.Kuska comment. Notice he "knows" that about Ann even though Ann allowed for that same possibility of cutting off the cane with no "devasting potential" part of her statement. He then uses a "seems to be" statement. Please look up "setting up a straw man". I am interested in discussing my statements not defending against "straw man" positions.

Your later statement: "For you to think that someone who has read many of them hasn't or shouldn't come to some general conclusions about your attitudes and what "seems to be" your thought process is ludicrous." is another example of this problem. I did not state that. I expect every reader to come to whatever conclusion they want to about the subject and to post their conclusions about the subjects.

My statement to you was: "Regarding the rest of your statement about your interpretation of my "presumption", please do not try to base a discussion on "seems to be" type statements.

If you have a particular statement that you wish to challenge, I request the courtesy of you putting it in quotes."

Here is a link that might be useful: link for straw man

No, Henry, REALLY. You have for a long time buried reasonable discourse under a flood of quotes and links.

In doing so, you have driven away others who had the temerity to comment on what you regard as your personal territory. Just let it rest, already.

We have ALL "got" that you believe Herbicide Damage may sometimes be mistaken for RRD. Well and good. You don't need to continue to pound that "lesson" home. You are not covering yourself with glory, here.

Take part in a discussion among equals, PLEASE.

Jeri

Thank you Sammy for your insiteful comments.
--------------------------
jerijen, if you feel that YOU have nothing further to learn from my replies to other's points or to other points that I feel are of interest and introduce, forums are set up that you can select to skip the post.

After getting all day e mails from this thread in my box, I am commenting now and please do not take offense.

I came to this thread in hopes of getting some practical information that I could use or impart to others about what RRD is. Instead I see links to herbicides and other off the topic links.

For this entire day I so wanted to post a picture of the proverbial 'beating the dead horse' on this thread.

I don't know Henry at all, but anyone trying to find practical information to this disease if they attempted to go through the 100 plus posts here would find they were inundated with the 'chicken vs' the egg' thinking-- herbicide damage vs RRD causing the deformities on roses. Most people coming to these forums want bullet information-- not link upon links to wade through.

I am grateful to those who have tried to keep this thread on the topic. I believe the OP wanted to know if her pictured specimen had RRD. There was dissension if the damaged areas should be removed or the entire plant removed.

I'm in the camp that agrees with complete removal of the plant-- if its RRD. RRD is a systemic disease and can spread to other roses by either your pruners or those mites that are wind blown to your rose.

Now can we please stop with the herbicide links? Please if its important to you to mention this, please start a thread about it instead of hijacking this one. Thank you.

jazzmom516 stated: "RRD is a systemic disease". Yes that has been stated in some (many) RRD fact sheets, but recent virus research papers have reported that the studied virus infections were not systemic. Where does rose rosette research stand on this question? I am not familar with any published papers on this question. Ann, have you found any?However, the fact that cutting off the infected cane has been reported as saving around 50 % (the actual number is not important for this point) of the infected plants, is evidence that the particular RRV virus infection at that point of time for that saved rose was not systemic.

Just for a laugh... at the rose show I was at recently, we had a speak from University of Georgia in nearby Athens. The topic was their study on specific roses and their disease resistance and other factors. The speaker was a Professor of Horticulture.

Well this person, who was very nice and personable, didn't know that there were roses that were once bloomers and said that she though RRD was caused by roses being in the shade.

Everyone please note that Henry has not answered my question about his own hands-on experience with RRD.

Buford, I too heard an "expert" at a recent talk on RRD to our local rose society. The audience had to constant correct his misinformation. We get a lot of RRD here--we know it well.

catrose, I am sorry. I actually had started writing one and I had a computer "something" and it disappeared (I should compose on the word processor and then transfer over).

From memory: early on I had a number of "RRV type" infections and I removed the whole plants. This was over several years. At some point I put the dots together. The infections were either in the bed that was immediately downhill from the neighbor that had a lawn service or were very close to where I had used a herbicide on newly sprouted poison ivy (many places among my 1000 roses). I changed the bed next to the neighbors to a raised bed and stopped all herbicide use (except corn gluten meal). I have had zero cases since then. Please note this does not mean everyone elses cases were not RRD. I would not make a cut the cane off recommendation, if I felt that.
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The comments about University people who need more accurate knowledge is one of the reasons that I take the time to present my research to this forum as I feel that this group is the best suited to get the word out( of course not ideal as there are people without the background to follow). If the 2012 American Rose Annual did not present an update and if the Consulting Rosarian Manual has not been updated, I feel that these are other examples as to why this thread is useful.

I've been reading along, not posting. I was hoping to learn more about a disease which is fatal to roses, and what to do about it, even though it's not in my area (that we know of...and "yet").

I have learned a lot on this thread, so for that, I say a heartfelt "thank you."

I've also learned that sometimes, this forum does what every other forum does...and that's argue until the subject is exhausted, and then still argue. Sort of like the last man standing wins, I suppose. LOL.

What I've also learned is that while we all consider our roses as friends and companions, replacing one is not very difficult in most situations and for the average rose-gardener (not speaking to unusual or rare varieties...). And yes, while it "hurts" us to SP a plant, still, it's just another job to do in our gardening duties sometimes.

In other words, as Paul Zimmerman might say, "it's just a plant."

removing a diseased plant from our gardens should be second nature to us; does any of us "like" pulling live and healthy plants? No, but if there's a chance that leaving it intact would infect the rest of my garden, it goes.

In summary, I suppose what I've learned from this thread is:
~SP a plant with the disease;
~RRV is very contagious;
~RU may mimic the early stages of RRV;
~When in doubt, pull it out;
~Roses are "just a plant".

This will be my only post on this thread...thanks for the education.

Best-
Herding Cats

And a very sensible post, at that.

Thank you, HerdingCats. :-)

Jeri

Henry, at the risk of seeming disrespectful or even mean-spirited, I would say that you are far from an expert on RRD and should probably leave the diagnosis to Ann and even those of us who have had to deal with the epidemic of this disease. Either you did have only herbicide damage or you had a very brief experience of RRD. That is vastly different than the thousands of RRD roses Ann has seen. We are all aware that on some classes of roses the initial presentation can look like herbicide--some of us actually pray that that is a possibility. Sadly, on many roses, including Vicky's MM, there is no question. You contribute nothing but confusion when you rant on about herbicides.

catsrose, Ann gave the same possibility of cut off the cane action:

If you felt that there was no question that it was infected and you feel as you stated "even those of us who have had to deal with the epidemic of this disease" you could of added a statement in this thread to vickysgarden concerning your opinion. This is an open forum.

Thirty-seven to go.

This might be useful.

Here is a link that might be useful: For Henry

subk3 what may be more useful is to direct the readers to a thread that you started about rose rosette disease:

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/roses/msg0420114631872.html

Here is a link that might be useful: Awkward RRD situation...

Is it that they cut it off now at 150?

In that case, only 33 to go.

Jeri

We doin' a "99 bottles of beer on the wall" thang here?

If so, I'll take one down and leave 32.

Yes, Jeri, the last HK marathon went to 150. I'll take one down and leave 31.

OMG, you mean this has happened before? 30

Some nice roses to enjoy.

I cut these the other day, before the Santa Ana wind began blowing.

29

Jeri :-)

Enticing as usual, Jeri.

28.

beautiful Jeri!

The wind was wicked down in Ventura today!

Pretty calm up here today. RRD mites would have been blown to the ocean with these winds

26

Maybe hurricane Sandy will blow all the RRD mites out of the east coast

25

Maybe we can spray the rrd mites with roundup on their way to the sea!

There was a guy at OSH yesterday asking the salesman if roundup would work on mice and rats....

24

I think there's a mis-count.
25

Maybe the hurricane will Drown the mites.

Jeri