"I won't waste my time again."

Awesome!

"Battery can only be charged so many times. After the battery warranty period is over, EV owners are footing 100% replacement cost."

EV battery life is estimated at about 15-20 years, or about 200,000 miles, if it is managed fully.....by that I mean that it should be maintained between 20% and 80%, with minimal fast charges. Just like the battery in your smartphone. I abuse the battery in my car by occasionally filling it to more than 80% for winter road trips, and using fast chargers several times a month, so I expect my battery might only last for 160,000 miles or so. I believe all EVs come with a minimum 8 year/100,000 mile coverage, but one of the Korean automakers covers it for the life of the car.

How long will a EV battery last if you are stuck in the snow induced traffic jam on I-95 in Virginia right now? Do they last longer when the car is just running the heater but not in gear?

For those who want an electric SUV, look at the Rivian R1S. DD and DSIL have one on order. Estimated delivery: early 2023. But the deposit was low and is 100% refundable. DSIL is trained as an engineer and does extensive research before buying anything.

"Do they last longer when the car is just running the heater but not in gear?"

I'd say much longer, though it's been a while since I monitored an ICE car while idling. In a summer study in an electric VW ID.4, running air conditioning, streaming music, and playing a video in the back seat for an hour, the car lost 2% of its charge https://www.driving.co.uk/news/electric-car-batteries-drain-stuck-traffic-new-test-answer/ In winter, expect an increase of 20% or 25% in the drain, so it might lose 2.5% of the battery's charge. That's the first hour; I'd expect the subsequent hours to be a bit less, but maybe not. Still, think about a 2.5% drop per hour - which I consider very minimal.

I wonder how large the carbon footprint is for production of electric vehicles and replacement batteries? I would imagine it's quite large as many factories run 24-hours a day. People always seem to discuss how efficient these vehicles are, but nothing is ever mentioned about the production process. I know nothing about it myself, just thought it was curious that people who seem to be concerned about the environment don't look beyond the car itself.

Thanks TV! That seems to be less consumption than an ICE car would use in gas while idling. Seems a fully charged EV battery could possibly last for 2 days just idling. Hopefully they will get the highway open before people start running out of whatever fuel they are using.

A charge ranges from 20% to 80% of the batteries capacity. Over 80% and you risk thermal runaway, under 20% and a chemical change raises internal resistance. So Toronto how can you override the safety limits of a battery and charge the battery over 80%?? I just can't see how manufacturers would allow this option, so the reason I ask.

Also is the 2% loss you mentioned 2% of the difference between 20 and 80 or 0 and 100?

I like electric cars but no so much the battery technology which leaves 40% of the batteries capacity unavailable. I also don't like the Idea that a few cells going bad out of the hundreds will limit the charge capacity of all to only the capacity of the bad cells.

"EV battery life is estimated at about 15-20 years, or about 200,000 miles," This is what they say but they don't tell you the capacity drops as internal resistance drops in a minority of the cells limiting a full charge to the rest of the cells. So in "X" number of years you won't get 300 miles from a charge but only say 200. But the battery is still good to go but don't say how far it will go in 10 years, or 15 or 20. In 20 around the block?

Until batteries improve I'll stick to my hybrid with $3000 battery replacements and not up to $20,000 for an all electric vehicle battery. But I do applaud you and others for buying the cars providing the capital and giving capitalistic competition the ability to evolve battery technology.

European cars have long had a feature that shuts off the engine when the car comes to a stop. Ubiquitous in Europe for a good while but now much more common on models sold in the US. My car does that so that no gas is used when waiting for a signal to change - it restarts automatically when the driver's foot is taken off the brake pedal. Heat-AC-entertainment all stay on. The engine will restart if the wait is so long that the AC or heat source has been used up and needs the engine on. The feature can be turned off if desired, as when creeping forward in a line.

As I said earlier, car purchases are usually much more an emotional decision than a rational one. For those who can afford it, there's no reason why it needs to be otherwise. While holding on to older cars may be more economical, newer cars offer more safety features and devices, more gizmos, better sounds systems, and the like. Again, for those who can afford it, getting a new car every 3-5 years is often their major self-indulgence and a source of enjoyment. Play on.

"I wonder how large the carbon footprint is for production of electric vehicles and replacement batteries?"

I don't think there are many replacement batteries, at least at this stage, because nobody's really got a car around 15+ years old that want a new battery, rather than a new car. Still, the carbon footprint is frequently investigated, and it's getting smaller over time since there are more and more companies recycling the batteries. A bigger part of the carbon footprint is the source of the electricity to run the factories that produce them, as well as the cars themselves - in some places that's coal :( and that will have to change for there to be real ecological benefits. I think the ecological cost to make an ICE car vs. an EV is about the same (now that there's more recycling of battery metals).

"This is what they say but they don't tell you the capacity drops as internal resistance drops in a minority of the cells limiting a full charge to the rest of the cells"

Yes, but do people really need to be told that the battery won't work as well or hold as much of a charge when it's older? We've all been working with battery powered things for all of our lives. We've all been living with lithium batteries in our cell phones that act the same way - we all know that by now. If we don't, it's our own fault, in my personal opinion. But an older battery still works, and just needs more frequent recharging. But it's not dead, and won't leave you stranded in the street.

"So Toronto how can you override the safety limits of a battery and charge the battery over 80%??"

You may have to go to the manufacturers for that information, all I know is what I've got. I do know that batteries have a kind of "gross vs. net" capacity, with a small percentage held in reserve....How much that is varies with the car manufacturer, but filling to "100%" will fill to the net capacity. A 83kWh Tesla battery has a usable (net) capacity of 78%, so 6% is held in reserve.

"Also is the 2% loss you mentioned 2% of the difference between 20 and 80 or 0 and 100?"

I mean 2% of the battery (net) capacity, so a 60kWh battery would lose 1.2kWh (i.e. 2% of 60)

kevin, I'm not an expert but I can tell you the tesla instruments display* battery charge as 0 to 100%. It also converts that charge to a mileage range, based upon your recent driving (and possibly temperature? I'm not sure about that). You can set car to charge up to whatever percentage you want. Ours might be 80%, I don't know. If you're planning a longer drive you can set the car to charge to 100% by a certain time and/or pre-condition the battery, which I think means warming it to the optimum temperature.

I understand people's hesitation to go fully electric. My sister has a plug-in hybrid, doesn't drive far, and hasn't bought gas since September. She also has solar on her roof, so she's quite happy with her set up.

woodrose, it's not that I don't care about the environment -- I've pontificated about the need to respect 'Mother Nature' several times on this forum! For me, the decision was more a matter of "pick your poison" -- what happens if we continue to rely on fossil fuel and current battery technology? Not good, as we're seeing now. How do we get to something better? I think the answer has to be: we get there step by step. We can't afford to wait on perfection.

eta: crossposted with TV, who is much better at explaining things than me.

*which as TV indicates, display of 100% might be actual 80%, 0% might be actual 6%. No worries ;-)

Right now electric cars don't always reduce pollution, sometimes they just relocate it from car tailpipes to power plants. In the US, more than half of electricity generated comes from fossil fuel combustion. The percentage is higher in some places and lower in others.

People with home solar panels and electric cars will often say their cars run on sunshine and that can be true to a point, some parts of the year. But rarely entirely. Most solar installers are careful to not sell and install more production capacity than the house uses - it can be uneconomical to do so, especially in areas where the lowest tier of usage may have the lowest cost per kwh. How most grid connected arrangements work - on days when a home system produces more than is consumed, the excess feeds up into the grid and gives the homeowner a credit to use in the future. That credit can be used in periods, like winter or heavy use summer days with a lot of AC and car charging, when consumption exceeds production. The reckoning period is often annually.

On those days when the homeowner uses their credit (as they're very entitled to do) the electricity is coming from the grid, not their solar panels. Which, on average in the US, is 60% from fossil fuels.

I know a few people with plug-in hybrids and from the stories they've shared with me, I wonder why they waste their time. The charge range is quite limited. One is a guy I know who had his arm twisted to get a plug-in hybrid, because of a good price offered when he was in a BMW dealership to buy a new car. (They had excess inventory and were trying to move them out).. He let his pocketbook outvote his head and he got one. He can't wait for his lease to end..The range is something like 35 miles, which is hardly worth the effort to charge.

nickel, suggest your sister get information about the recommended "shelf life" of gasoline. When she does, she'll learn that it's about 6 months. If it has ethanol in it (as gas does in many parts of the country), it's a shorter period of time.

Also, a gas engine needs to be run periodically to keep it internally lubricated, prevent rust and to avoid damage. She'd probably be well served to avoid charging it for awhile, to use up the gas getting old and lubricate the engine by running it for good stretches of time. Then she can refill the tank and carry on as before for some number of months, when she should probably do the same thing again.

thank you for your advice, Elmer, my sister understands same. Her set up works for her because of her limited mileage -- most often she drives 3 or 4 miles a few times per week, with a ten-mile round trip to the creamery maybe three times per month. Longer trips are rare. Her driving pattern might change once Covid quits casting a pall on spontaneous/day trips, and we can get back to normal sight seeing, shopping, visiting, etc. I agree her type of hybrid wouldn't be that great for anyone with a regular longer commute -- not yet, but someday.

"plug-in hybrids........The range is something like 35 miles"

I believe the intention is that the battery will manage for city driving and quick errands, which is when electric cars really shine - they're much more efficient at city speeds, stop-and-go, and traffic jams. Then the gasoline engine will work for highway and longer distance driving. Most cars in the US are driven less than 50 miles a day (less for cars based in cities), so perhaps for some, that's OK. Personally, I think hybrids are a poor middle ground, neither fish nor fowl, and decided if I was going to go electric I'd go all in.

Misinformed/incorrect information ignored.

I'm not at all knowledgeable about hybrids but for us, one of the advantages of a fully electric car is that there is no need for all the maintenance required for an ICE. With a hybrid you have that plus the additional potential for failure of electric components. Getting a Tesla was entirely DH's idea and I always say he makes my life fun and interesting and this car is no exception. 😊

Fun to read this, as I've wondered what will replace our 2005 sedan when its soft parts eventually render it kaput. IDK if I'll be up to piloting whatever is on offer then, and I hate to think of spending tens of thousands for a glorified golf cart that would meet our around-town transportation needs. Maybe this car will last until we are no longer safe drivers!

I'm such a Dinosaur. I'll be one of "latter group" of Earthlings to go Electric. It's just not ....... "Me".

Think of the first "Mad Max" movie. That'll be Me, with Mel Gibson's "Police Interceptor", pulling up on the knob to start the Nitrous.....tires squealing, & the Blower's butterfly-valves flipping open.

😈😈😈

The Tesla has a huge "fun factor" that I don't think was mentioned. The latest update allows the driver to set any seat they choose to fart every time someone sits on it. A great way to be a hero to a 10 year old!

We have a model Y, and are on the wait list for the Tesla truck which is due next year. We live in the country, and want the self driving feature, plus the truck will be able to power the house to a limited extent during power outages. Hopefully it will be as indestructible as they claim, because I am hoping to drive it for a long time.

Sorry. I just know the KITT car and the Delorean.

https://readyplayerone.fandom.com/wiki/KITT

This goes back to 1980....

Bad-a$$ V8

Faron

First I will state I am not against hybrid or electric vehicles at all. The events that happened on I95 a few days ago with cars being stranded for many hours just triggered a question in my mind about electric cars in this type of situation.

We all have heard about how long a gas-powered vehicle might be able to last, if fully fuelled, in this type situation. Let’s say an individual might power up and warm up the inside of the car and perhaps heated seats for 15-30 minutes periodically. Of course this depends on the size of the engine, how much gas, and many other factors, but there is likely an average there somewhere.

What about electric cars? Do they use less power if idling? Does part of the stored power always run a heater? What about other in-car accessories pulling power? I know from the little I’ve read there is some self-charging done when coasting downhill for example, but what happens when sitting still? Does the cold weather discharge the battery faster?

I have heard in the past some electric car owners carried small generators with them on the road.

They could implant solar cells into the car's body and sprinkle around some little windmills on top..........yeah that last part deserved a drum beat.

Hyundai stole your idea @vgkg Z-7 Va

Hyundai Ioniq 5 with solar panel roof top. Another little trick this car has is the ability to plug into other electric cars for a charge, with permission I hope.

You may want to patent the little windmill idea.

Want an electric car that will do 1000 miles on a charge? Paradigm Plus for $46,900, This car also has solar panels and orders are being taken now.

"What about electric cars? Do they use less power if idling? Does part of the stored power always run a heater?"

They definitely use less "fuel" than ICE cars while idling. I posted about this above: "In a summer study in an electric VW ID.4, running air conditioning, streaming music, and playing a video in the back seat for an hour, the car lost 2% of its charge https://www.driving.co.uk/news/electric-car-batteries-drain-stuck-traffic-new-test-answer/ In winter, expect an increase of 20% or 25% in the drain, so it might lose 2.5% of the battery's charge. That's the first hour; I'd expect the subsequent hours to be a bit less, but maybe not. Still, think about a 2.5% drop per hour - which I consider very minimal."

I am on a Tesla Owners Forum, and we're hoping someone who was in that mess will post their experiences - statistically, there likely was a Tesla in there somewhere.

Carrying a generator to recharge on the road is possible, but quite impractical - the units are relatively large and (more importantly) heavy for a driver to carry "just in case". In the range of several hundred pounds. I'm hoping that CAA will start making a generator available on some of their vehicles, so they can provide some power in the same way they can provide a can of gas to a car that's run out.

"They definitely use less "fuel" than ICE cars while idling.

More misinformed/incorrect information.

My engine shuts off when stopped at a signal while all accessories continue to run. How much gas do you calculate it's using at such times?

For how long?

ETA and when your engine shuts down it’s not iding and I doubt (but don’t know) that an EV has a motor idling when the vehicle is stopped.

Elmer, I see what you mean but I don't equate momentary stops at a light signal with the idling one does to stay warm in a ice storm-induced traffic jam.

It's been almost 40 years, but I was stuck overnight on that stretch of 95. It was snowing and the road was icing up but traffic was moving along cautiously until we weren't -- no one was. You made your gas last longer by working with your neighbors, sharing your space with them and vice versa. I imagine the people stuck recently did likewise as much as they could. (And luckily the stretch I was on (approaching Aquia) still had a row of trees and shrubbery along the sides, so the "facilities" were private enough!)

"My engine shuts off when stopped at a signal while all accessories continue to run. How much gas do you calculate it's using at such times?"

I can't calculate how much your car uses, because you haven't told us what car you drive. I can tell you what an average car uses because this isn't a new question or new problem.....people have actually tested this out. It's not my calculation, it's the calculation of those who've actually run tests on this.

An idling car uses about a quarter to a half gallon of gas per hour. A car with a stop-start system uses less when stopped for a short period, but it probably won't help in a situation like what happened on I95 for several reasons: Some cars will have the engine start automatically if needed to maintain the HVAC temperature; some cars will shut everything down if the car has been stopped longer than the max time allowed; some cars will start when you take your foot off the brake (as expected) but will not shut down again if you stop without reaching a the preset speed(6-10 mph?) in between; some cars won't stop-start if the ambient (and battery) temps are too low or too high; most won't stop-start if the driver's seat belt is undone.

I just read about the Solar-Roofed Mercedes EQXX Concept EV and liking it. The range is 1000 km (over 620 mi) from a single charge with an energy consumption of less than 10 kWh per 100 kilometres, as compared to a Tesla Model 3 Long Range at 16 kWh per 100 km.

Thanks, Toronto. I noted the study conducted did address the cold weather issue.

‘Cold conditions drain the battery faster because the speed of the chemical reaction that generates an electrical current within the battery slows down. Many electric cars have a built-in cooling and heating circuit, to help keep the battery at its optimum temperature, but this system itself uses energy from the battery. Cold weather can also mean that it takes longer to charge the car back up when you connect to a charging point.

And without an internal combustion engine, which produces heat as it runs that can be channeled into the cabin, electric cars’ heaters must work harder to maintain a comfortable temperature for the passengers. Some electric cars now use heat pumps, which are far more energy efficient than regular air conditioning systems and help reduce energy consumption, so not all electric cars are equal.’

The research company claims they will be conducting more tests in cold weather conditions. Will be interesting to see and compare those results.

Elmer, you and I drive the same brand car I believe and mine does the same as do many others now. I don't plan to buy an electric car and am happy with my gas mileage, but do find them interesting. Not sure why they are being touted as something for everyone these days.

Actually, it was the lack of a heat pump that kept me from considering a Mustang Mach-e (which in retrospect turned out to be a blessing, because they've had a lot of problems with their initial year), even though I like the looks and it offers good range. Hopefully Ford (and all EV manufacturers) will ensure their offerings have heat pumps in the future.

nickel, I don't buy the suggestion that advantages in ice storm circumstances is the reason to have an electric car. The other "advantages" are equally specious.

Everyone should get one that wants to get one. Don't fall for sales puffery. I'm neither pro nor con but speaking of con, I can tell people who repeat comments they heard to con them into making the buying decision. They're more specious than not. I prefer my baloney (when I splurge, not often) in a sandwich.

Forget ice storms, what about bumper to bumper traffic. This is a reality in large Cities and in accidents on highways.

I think a lot of making a decision about a fully electric car depends on the type of driving you do on a regular basis.

However, Amazon has decided to go all electric with their delivery vans. Interesting how they will do in large Cities such as NYC.

Elmer, did you think I was advocating electric over fossil fuel due to ice storm traffic jams? If so, I apologize for mis-communicating; my intent was to share my IRL experience with same. What I meant to say was: that I personally did not understand why you were touting the auto shutoff of engines at short stops as relevant to the conversation. If I understand your point now, it's relevant in that it's a method by which less fossil fuel is burned. All good.

eta: my story's point being, that sharing our resource was the best way to conserve fuel, make it last longer. Unusual circumstance lead to unusual degree of altruism.

"The other "advantages" are equally specious."

No, the advantages are real.......Those advantage might be less important to you than to other people, or there might be more advantages to an ICE car that are important to you than the advantage of an EV, but they are real and correct advantages. Every situation and pros and cons, advantages and disadvantages.

I can think of a few situations where the advantages of an ICE car are greater than the advantages of an EV: travelling sales or service reps who cover non-urban areas, rural homeowners with inconsistent electrical service, and those who live in multi-family buildings and can't add a charging unit to their home electrical bill.

"However, Amazon has decided to go all electric with their delivery vans. Interesting how they will do in large Cities such as NYC."

I suspect (and hope) quite well, since traffic jams and slow moving traffic are where EVs really shine - they are more efficient at slower speeds.

Won’t die of carbon monoxide poisoning when snow rises above the nonexisitent tailpipe. 🤓

food, that's not a risk most people need to worry about or plan for.

Oh!

Carbon monoxide poisoning from snow clogged tail pipes is actually a risk if you live in snow country. Could happen with cars left outside or if you have tight clearance because of large snowbanks and you end up backing into the snow. I was thinking about the lack of carbon monoxide with the EV - you can be "running" it in the garage without opening the garage door. I have an irrational thing about turning the car on with the garage door closed even if I'm immediately going to open it - like the CO is going to kill me in seconds. Weird, I know.

Even if you won’t die in seconds it’s a good idea to open the garage door before starting the car. Less chance of driving into it.

Unfortunately, CO deaths from exhaust pipes clogged with snow still happen, but are fortunately very rare - kind of like fires from people trying to defrost frozen pipes with a blowtorch. You'd think it would be well known how to avoid those hazards, but somehow it still happens to someone every year or so : (

2katz, if you don't mind saying, what was the cost of the chargers? Did you need any other electrical upgrades?

Tesla has 80% of the EV market I read. I am interested in the MachE but it doesn't have good ground clearance for a crossover. I am also interested in the new Subaru Solterra, but the predicated range isn't that great at < 250 miles. Meanwhile, still got the 5.0L Mustang and the 6 cylinder Outback.

I agree with you that a hybrid has the disadvantages of both systems. For my next car it's either all-in electric or I will stick with ICE.

@gsciencechick - I think the charger itself was about $500 and installation was about $1200. We did get a rebate from both power companies however.

This was on my news feed. It is from the UK. Coming to Canada and/or US. It wouldn't surprise me if it did.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/01/07/ev-chargers-to-be-separately-metered/

Both our EV chargers are on separate time of day meters. You can charge any time if you must but rates are much lower at off peak times and we have the car programmed to charge only at off peak times.

For electrical grids, there is a concept called "base load" that represents a level of power production required to cover the projected minimum level of demand plus a margin of cushion. Base load generation in the US is mostly produced by nuclear plants, plants producing energy from combustion, and hydroelectric power from predictably flowing water. These plants have only the equivalent of on and off switches, not variable controls like a car's accelerator or brake pedals. They're on at a constant level 24x7. Base loads vary seasonally and are considerably higher in much of the US in the Spring and Summer because of air conditioning use.

At so-called evening and overnight off-peak times, power is still produced but goes unused. Time of use rate differences come into play, to encourage customers to move consumption to off-peak times. Increasing customer electricity consumption at such times has no marginal cost and doing so provides a double bonus of decreasing daytime peak demand.

In residential settings, there's mostly little use of a magnitude of car charging that can be moved to off-peak times. Summertime AC use, often the largest residential power user in much of the US, is something most people are unwilling to postpone until late evening or overnight to turn on.

"This was on my news feed. It is from the UK. Coming to Canada and/or US. It wouldn't surprise me if it did.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/01/07/ev-chargers-to-be-separately-metered/"

I wonder if this would apply to just plugging your car into an ordinary outlet? I suspect most people already charge their cars in off peak times (I know here the off peak times are half the cost off charging in peak times), either by programming their EVSE, or programming their car directly.