strongly agree with everything @Mrs. S said. But I must add this PLEASE take her to vet to be checked out post haste. She is a growing baby & as babies do, her behavior will change often. Why I’m recommending a vet check now is that you said “Potty training was going well until recently…..” What changed? Your routine & so her established routine changed too? Her food? etc. As a growing puppy she should be going to vet for wellness checks & for non-traumatic visits - no shots or surgeries etc so vet visit good thing to do regardless. Don’t know how experienced you are with dogs but at least 95% of behavior problems is because of human error & lack of consistency on part of the human.

ETA - I’d want to confirm no hearing issues too

Crate training was going very smoothly and we had it down to a science, but she could go outside, pee twice, crap, come inside and chill out for ten minutes, and then goes again on the floor.

Nothing's changed, other than that she's been spayed recently. The vet says she's in really good shape. Honestly, she's acted the way puppies do when they get separated from mom too early since we got her. I've had dogs my whole life and have trained different kinds of breeds, but this one's definitely the hardest. I talked to one of the only trainers around here and he charges a fortune for three sessions.

i'd have her checked for a UTI. you don't necessarily have to take her to the vet. just use a ladle to catch some of her first morning urine and take it in to be analyzed for bacteria. it's best to get it to the vet within an hour (2 at the most).

@HU-913688533 & @Ninapearl Great idea to check pup for a UTI - that was my first thought when you described going outside then again very soon inside. She’s not emptying her bladder or she feels like she has to go often or a sense of urgency. Dogs feel just like we do when we have a UTI. Could very well have something to do with being spayed too.

@HU-913688533 another thought or reason for the UTI check - vets always advise to first rule out physical causes for behavior changes in both dogs & cats before assuming they are being stubborn. Dogs especially live to please their people! Cats, not so much 😆

That makes sense. I'll definitely have to do that then. I'm glad there's people like you guys that can think of things like that because it wouldn't have even crossed my mind lol. It just seemed like she was just more concerned about what my other dog was doing than going to the bathroom.

@HU-913688533 Wonder if she’s changing / growing up to be the alpha dog and is competitive with the older doggie. Have you tried taking her outside for potty break alone - leave older dog inside until she’s done? No distractions. We had to take our dog outside on a leash for awhile when she was not quite 1 year old & release her only after she pottied. Reason was she would make a beeline for back door - we’d carry her to grass, set down, tell her to potty, and zip - she’s gone! 4.4lbs of flying, streaming hair - swear her feet didn’t hit the ground. It was like a game to her. Without the leash she’d make an end run around us. Papillons are noted for their agility, which which, if you’ve ever seen one run an agility course you’ll get the full picture of our challenge! They also call them ’Spirit Dogs’ as they can disappear like magic - one moment they’re standing right next to you & next they’re no where to be found.

You all are awesome, so I'm going to keep asking questions. I'm going to start using their names to avoid confusion, especially for myself. My pup's name is Dazey and my older dog's name is Ocha.

It's definitely a competition between the two of them. They're worse than kids when it comes to wanting things the other has. And there isn't a time of the day where Dazey isn't in Ocha's face licking her nose or her ears or the inside of her mouth.

Ocha is also a female, a bred hunting dog (we don't use her as one), hasn't been spayed, so she has that guarding behavior that comes with that, and she had a litter of nine a couple years ago, so she's dealt with babies in her face lol. But she's like any older dog and human.. she's grumpy and doesn't have time for nonsense. But in her nine years, she's never been aggressive towards any dog until she was introduced to my boyfriend's nasty Silky "Terror". That dog was about as aggressive and bad mannered as they came. And then after he became aggressive with her, she became aggressive with him, and now she's just moody with dogs period with the exception of my sister's dog.

Trying to take them outside separately is insane. And it's not on Dazey's part. Ocha's nose gets the best of her and then she's bolting out the door chasing some sort of scent or animal. (Last time she got loose, she was chasing a deer through a field).

I guess I don't understand why Dazey's all over Ocha like puppies are all over mom and how long this whole alpha deal is going to last because it's obvious that neither one of them is going to back down anytime soon.

In my experience, and based on reading, conversations with rescues, putting 2 females together is higher probability of fighting. Or having 2 male dogs.

It generally works out better if it's male/female.

That said, I think I would pay the high rates and get your area's best trainer (or two of them, to get a couple different points of view) in there to advise you, before things get worse. At some point, you may admit to yourself that had you spent that $1000 on a trainer from the get-go, you might be better off.

Interesting. I've always had females. This is the first time I've ever dealt with something like this. I personally don't care for having males because they've always been more of a pain in my personal opinion, but yeah, I'll have to contact the guy again and see what he says.

It's weird because they're able to lay within a close proximity of each other and there's no problem. Ocha just growls when Dazey tries to take something from her or when she gets close to her while she's laying in her spot on the couch.

I strongly agree with @Mrs. S about seeking help with a trainer. If Dazey continues to test Ocha’s boundaries & refuses to respond to Ocha’s behavior cues, a fight is going to erupt & one of them or you, or all 3 of you are going to be injured. Once that happens, it will be nigh impossible to set up a peaceful pack & you’ll have to rehome Dazey likely, who will now have a behavior issue in her past. Ocha has already shown you that she has limits by becoming aggressive with that ill mannered Silky Terrier. You will have history repeating itself soon. I think this has to do with establishing who is alpha in your pack & it should not be Ocha - it must be You! Ocha needs help too as you said she chases deer - meaning she wouldn't stop & return on your command. I would pick up all toys & keep these pups separated until you get a trainer in your house. An in home evaluation is the first step. I mean this only in your dogs’ best interests - you really have no time to ponder on whether to take this step - please!

You're good. Ocha's very submissive when it comes to people and always has been. It's kind of like the Papillion comment. Her hunting instinct takes over and it takes some time to snap her out of it, but luckily, it doesn't happen very often. Her dad is one hell of a runner too.

But you're right. All toys have been put up and we've been trying to figure out how to go about this until we can save up the money for the trainer.

@HU-913688533 I’m so happy to read your post! When it’s a subject about which I have strong feelings, I’m challenged to not sound bossy! I want you to know that I do take my own advice too. I did take my Papillon - and myself - to training classes at a place that provided doggie daycare during the day & classes twice weekly in evenings. My challenge was that I really didn’t know how to train a dog & it was pretty obvious my Ginger was in charge instead of me! She is not my first dog either but was the first time we'd had only one dog & first since we retired & so I was home most all day with her. Ginger is a people lover & very social as the Papillon breed is. But she was nervous around other dogs & wouldn't walk nicely on leash & barked at everything while out walking - a lot! Our class had @ 10 other dogs, all huge & several rescues so quite the experience for me with my petite doggie! At first class I learned to tire Ginger out just before class with long walk & play so she was able to concentrate in class. We left class with homework to do each day. The time spent practicing on our own was a great energy user for her - gave her a job to do & best of all, my undivided attention. She is a much nicer doggie & it's impressive to see her respond to hand commands as well as verbals.

Another suggestion that could help right away & for free is to check out some Youtube videos on training & start working with Dazey on very basic commands of sit, stay & most important " Leave it!' That last is so important & means Stop!! & also means Don’t Touch! For Ginger it means to stop barking or stop biting at a plant outside - she does that to get my attention if I’m talking to a guest - just like a 2 year old kid. You might see an immediate benefit from working daily with Dazey because that will give her a job, an activity, & use some energy - all very important for her working breeds makeup.

Good luck & kudos to you for reaching out for advice & being gracious about receiving it!

Kathy

I didn't take anything you said as being bossy 😊 I should do that.

I guess my biggest problem is that I'm gone twelve hours a day for work and spend about three hours decompressing before bed, so I spend those three hours doing some training with her. She has sit, lay down, and shake down to a T, but it doesn't come without biting.

I really do need to figure out how to tire her out though. I could run her up and down the house for an hour and she still acts like she just had a Red Bull. And I'd love to let her run outside, but I don't trust her to let her off a leash. Last time, she took off into the garage and ate the cat food we leave out for the barn cats. Any advice?

I really appreciate all of your advice with all of this. I honestly didn't expect such lovely people, considering the way the internet is these days. It means alot to me.

Exercising an energetic dog

@HU-913688533 I searched Houzz discussions for dog exercise & found several very old posts that might be of interest & at least will let you know your challenge isn’t unusual. There are a couple about introducing high energy pup to household with older dog too. The link I post above is to a 15 year old post. Maybe you can get ideas & encouragement from reading through older discussions - try several different search topics - interesting reading & some good advice.

You have a challenge with your long work days & sounds like you live in rural setting which is good for dog like Dazey but harder for you to get help. All that pent up energy when you get home! And, with work day & commute, a early morning run is pretty tough especially in winter darkness. If you could find affordable services like a dog walker to come & take her out or a day care to take her to a couple times a week that would help her especially with socialization. As for cat food - well, all that protein in cat food not good for dogs - maybe the food could be raised up out of her reach? How big & open is that barn? Can you take her out there, close doors & play fetch til she drops? And use it as training area as working on training is mental exercise & also tires them out. Biting? is that her trying to play or being aggressive? She needs a strong Leave it!! And don’t ever play tug with her & a toy - she’s the winner when you let go of the toy / rope etc. Not good. Sounds like she’s working her way to being leader of your pack.

HU, you mention the biting while you're training her. A trainer once gave me advice about that, and it has certainly worked for me. (In fact, we are doing this, actually, with a new kitten and it's working like a charm!).

When the puppy bites you, you need to "YIPE" really loud, and then turn away from the dog for a minute or two: ignore the dog. Withdrawal of attention is powerful, over time.

He said this is how puppies learn "bite inhibition" when they wrestle around with other pups/dogs. And this is where reading a couple of books would come in, to learn helpful tips like this. Not every tip is going to work for every dog (or owner!). Keep that in mind.

We had a F Husky/Brittany Spaniel mix that we adopted at 1.5 yrs. She was impossible to wear out and she was still wanting to walk 5 miles shortly before her death.

But on to advice. We also had an older Mr. Grumpy dog. He did not tolerate her trying to play with him. There was never a fight because she read his body language (he growled when she went barrelling at him) and left him alone. We also had a young adult lab mix F. She played with both. The two girls bonded and helped to wear each other out. You probably don't want to adopt another right now but finding her an equally high energy playmate to help wear her out would be doing both her and the other dog a favor. Find some other desperate dog owner with a high energy dog.

Look at her food and treats. Make sure nothing she is getting contains sugar. We have also fostered dogs who were hyper. They calm down well for us but then hyper up when adopted. I think it is because we feed a really clean diet with no sugar or processed chemicals.

Our Husky mix wasn't hyper but she was impossible to wear out. As mentioned above we had a lab mix for her to play with. We have a 1 acre fenced yard so plenty of room to run. We also back to a walking path and they both ran the fence with walkers, bicyclist and runners all day long. She also got two 2-3 mile walks a day. My husband would throw the chuckit with her in the yard for a solid hour and she would just go and go. We also trained her in agility and bought/built equipment for the backyard. 3 times a day we would go to the backyard and run her over all the equipment a few times to exercise her mind. Always changed the pattern and used hand signals so we didn't run ourselves ragged in the process. She would just get this look on her face like she was bored and if she didn't get to do something her mind would explode. She needed something to think about and agility helped with that.

She still got bored and used her paws to unweave our metal chain link fence so she could go on walk abouts. The neighborhood preteens would always help us find her and bring her back. We cemented under the entire 1 acre fence since she never went over, just under and through the fence.

Sometimes she would show up in the middle of the night covered in pond slime, banging on the door with her paw to be let back in after she took off some time the evening before. She was an indoor dog, slept in our bedroom, had dog buddies at home, was well trained and well exercised but she had a spirit of adventure and roaming (as most Huskies do) so off she would go. We are probably the only people with iron security bars reinforcing all our fence gates.

Good luck and look at everything with a sense of humor and fondness. It helps. She is missed greatly.

I tried something different today. I took the girls out like I usually do, but instead of bringing them back in after they were done with their business, I let Dazey off her leash.

Knowing how she is with Ocha, I let her loose and Ocha ran that girl around the entire yard until they both were worn out and brought them in afterwards. That seemed to do the trick.

But then I did it again and Dazey ran with her for a minute and then decided to take off into the cornfield next to our yard and refused to come back when I called for her. I had to follow her and have Ocha run at her to get her attention to bring her back to the house.

Our yard isn't fenced in, it was just a house dropped on an acre and a half of the neighbor's field.

I've never thought to look to see if there was any sugar in the foods she eats. She doesn't care for the food she has now, she just wants what Ocha eats. I'll have to start paying more attention to that.

Well, It's great you're trying new things. "Recall" or the "Come" command is often very challenging, but it has to get to be so, so solid, that the dog will come 100% of the time, unless you're in an enclosed area, or the dog could be killed (traffic, drowning, cliffs--I know a dog who went through bushes and right off a cliff chasing a rabbit) or injured, or whatever.

(Side note: One of my best dog trainer's personal dog could not be trusted completely off-leash, and that's where dog's individuality comes into the equation).

I personally have learned a whole lot of tips and tricks about training recall, but I have to say, there are so many aspects to the process, that I really think this is going to need a trainer. A class. A book. A bunch of videos. Some relevant things that I have learned include:

-starting on a 30' lead

-starting only in enclosed areas

-high-value rewards, that the dog never knows about until she comes a-running, then gets surprised with a bit of hot dog

-calling the dog but facing away from the dog (turn your shoulders and be walking in a direction-don't face dog directly; and this is an agility thing trained over time--dogs and a lot of other animals naturally watch which direction your shoulders are facing, and that is and can be reinforced over time). Takes a lot of practice, for you and the dog.

-gradually increasing the stimuli level, so the dog learns to choose coming, over whatever level of stimuli she's choosing between

-never, ever, ever, ever, ever, punishing a dog in any way when eventually she does come to you. Never. No punishment at all, just praise.

-excited voice, not demands like "COME".

-in fact in agility, there are levels of "come". The "come" command is reserved for instant approach all the way to the human, whereas, "Let's go" and/or saying the dog's name (and the like) is softer and more geared to getting the dog's attention, driving excitement, and re-orienting the dog, typically towards the handler... there are nuances.

And there's more. You can watch youtube videos for help. But what you need is going to be a lot of trainer input, instant feedback, and correction of the way YOU do things. Not a judgment or any criticism meant! Just that there's a lot of training of handler in how to train the dog. You need help.

I once had a trainer ask me if I was more interesting and fun than chasing a cow. If not I couldn't expect recall. I thought this was an interesting point.

Every single one of my dogs had to be taught reliable recall completely differently. For Mr Grumpy, the Chow mix, I needed to use a deep barking authoritative "come". My sweet lab mix just turned her back on me when I tried to train her with an authoritative voice. She was a delicate girl and sensitive. I learned from "On talking terms with dogs Calming Signals" https://www.amazon.com/Talking-Terms-Dogs-Calming-Signals/dp/1929242360/ref=asc_df_1929242360/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312132076760&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15426171789122246213&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9028797&hvtargid=pla-426747736299&psc=1

She wasn't ignoring me by turning her back, she was trying to calm me. So for her a sweet sing song voice of "come" worked great.

My Husky Mix responded to no recall training. She had no interest in treats. She didn't care if we were going somewhere, she had her own path. We studied her personality and she was a fun loving gal. So we tried spinning in a circle, yelling "party, party party". Pumping our arms up and down, like we were having a giant fun party without her. Brought her running every time. When she ran up we danced around with her. She loved it. We finally figured out how to be more interesting than a cow, to her.

You'll have to figure out what makes you more interesting and fun than a cow to your girl.

We eventually got our girl to respond to come but she needed a party when she ran up to us to keep her reliable. Also we had to transition from the word party to come by saying party, party, come for a while.

Agreed. I could definitely use some training myself lol. It's been nine years since I've trained a puppy, especially one of a completely different breed. I've almost completely forgot how to go about it and I get pretty frustrated, to be honest.

@mmmm12COzone5 I have that book you mention & it’s great! The author explains dog signals when they’re interacting with each other so we can understand what those signals they give us mean. My little Papillon turns her back every single time she’s ’ordered’ to come but zips right over when I turn slightly away calling a cheery Let’s go girl. And. though she’s now 8 years old, she is never, ever ever, off lead outside of our fenced yard. She is way too fleet of foot as Papillons are, & she cannot resist the random squirrel, person or dog walking by. I am never more intersting than a squirrel😆

KW,

That book really helped us with our various dogs and fosters.

We also trained our Husky mix girl in agility. She was leash reactive so first we trained her with a basic training class (where she got isolated and refered to grumpy growlers) then a Grumpy Growlers class, then a private trainer and then an agility class for leash reactive dogs.

We only let her off leash in agility and once in an empty campground. Wouldn't you know if but a herd of deer appeared on the horizon in the empty campground. Off she took at full speed toward the deer with our other dog following behind her. I called come but she was already 100 yards or more away from me. She turned on a dime and headed back with our other dog following her. We had a big party when she got back.

Man, I want to move to where you guys are 😆 We don't have any agility courses around here and the closest dog park is about 56 miles away.

I don't keep Ocha on a leash unless we're on unfamiliar ground. She wears a training collar (battery's been dead for ages) and all I have to do is keep the remote in hand and she stays close. I had one that I was going to put on Dazey, but I think she ate it.

What's that book called that you're talking about? I'd love to get it and read it so I'm more informed about what's going through their heads.

I put the link to it for sale on Amazon in my other post. On Talking Terms with Dogs, Calming Signals.

Please rule out a UTI. Females this age are prone to it

It seems to me that your dog is bored. Puppies need to be challanged or they can and will make life difficult.

Someone once stated to my "a dog that is completely content will do absolutely nothing"

The trick is to figure out how to get them there

Good luck!

She's definitely much better. Ocha takes her on runs every time they go outside and Dazey's definitely picked up on the commands that I thought I was going to have to teach from the beginning, which is awesome because I didn't remember how I taught Ocha to do them so well lol.

With Ocha's help and alot of work, Dazey has improved to the point where we don't have near the problems we did before, there's just one.. she jumps on my young kids.

Wow! great progress & good news! She is showing how smart she is by learning to copy Ocha’s behavior & response to commands! Teach your kids to turn their backs to Dazey when they can see she’s going to jump on them. The dog quickly learns as that’s a response in dog language - another dog turning away from them. If Dazey jumps on adults, quickly raise your leg so knee hit her in chest - then command ’Off!!”