Straw — phew - thanks - thought I blew that one! We’d been in an unusually rainy cycle for 2 weeks - but the past week storms have all gone south/north of us - which can be typical here for NYC.

Straw, I was trying to get coop poop for pcdm but the local ace and Lowe’s don’t carry it. Shipping for a 14lb bag is $150 😂 wondering what you look for when you read the specs on chicken manure; maybe I can find an alternative.

Michelle Yung: Skip the coop poop or any chicken manure for pcdm since any granular fertilizer makes PCdM too tall. I already tested chicken manure on PCDM and it grew too tall. SOLUBLE fertilizer high in phosphorus is best like MaxSea Bloom formula that Rose Lai used for his/her PCDM (deep pink). MaxSea bloom is expensive since it has kelp, and kelp is what helps with deep colors.

Since you already have MasterBlend NPK 4-18-38, I would use that on PCDM along with kelp meal. So far MasterBlend hasn't made my Dee-lish super-tall, and that gets even taller than PCDM with granular fertilizer.

$150!!! That's insane. LOL

coop poop was cheap on amazon with prime.

Oh okay, I was worried the chicken manure would burn the plant in this heat anyway. I wasn't looking forward to the smell :)

I know you had recommended a “tiny bit“ molasses for deeper color as well. How tiny is a tiny bit?

And have you ever tried spirulina or other superfood additives into the soil? Spirulina is an algae and since our soil seems to love ocean products, it could be interesting…and expensive 😂

Michelle Yung: Molasses is high in iron at 20%, so I used 1 TBS per 2 cups solution of vinegar/gypsum/sulfate of potash (shake well before using). From this diluted solution I use 1 TBS per 2 gallons of tap-water. So it's double-dilution with molasses. Phosphorus shifts bloom to the red zone, but phosphorus is most available at neutral to slightly acidic pH, and less available at pH over 7.5.

The problem with PCdM is fading to white in hot sun. Chicken manure was useless in deepening the blooms to pink. Tons of acidic rain also fade the color of PCdM. What deepened colors for a friend in Costa Mesa, CA was using fish emulsion for her 120 roses.

I don't want smelly stuff to attract thrips, so I don't use fish emulsion.

In my 11 years of growing Mary Magdalene as own-root, I always get white blooms. The only 2 times that I got pretty pinkish blooms are:

1) Pennington Alaska pellets with kelp meal and fish bone meal: blooms got deeper pink & leaves got deep green. I tested that on my tomato plant (very pale with pH 9 water), and that turned the tomato's leaves dark-green. Bone meal is NOT soluble at alkaline pH, so I'm pretty sure it's from the kelp.

2) Biochar in early spring and rain water made its trace-elements soluble.

I did test spirulina tablets (from Hawaii): I dunked about 10 tablets in a garbage can of water, and that turned the water bright purple !! I watered roses with that, and yes, leaves look lush & healthy but did not deepen blooms' colors.

Below is Evelyn made deep pink with vinegar mixed with molasses to fix my alkaline tap water at pH 9:

Wow!! The color looks more like Sweet Mademoiselle! I've never seen Evelyn with such a deep, lovely color! How cool!!

Straw - beautiful Evelyn! Question though — how does all this re adding molasses to watering mix for iron translate to those of us with differing degrees of tap water ph’s? For instance, here in NYC our tap water is 7.2, not 9…..

Aerbk: click on above pic. to see that trace elements like iron, manganese, boron, copper & zinc are least available at above pH 7.5, but abundant at neutral to acidic pH (except for molybdenum).

For your tap water at pH 7.2, there's no need for above trace elements.

However, at acidic pH (rain water at below pH 6), there are less MAJOR nutrients, esp. calcium, magnesium, phosphorus & potassium & sulfur.

Re-post the pic. of the fertilizer that caused blackspots plus killed 2 of RaeAnna's roses. From below pic., urea is the first ingredient. Months ago I wrote how urea should be avoided, since it's known to kill plants. Excerpt from below link: "A common impurity in urea fertilizers is biuret (C2H5N3O2), which can be broken-down in soil but does so over a long period of time, and is phytotoxic during the process. Urea itself can damage plants and too much nitrogen can give crops a “burn". During the nitrification process, there are increases in the number of free hydrogen ions (H+) in the soil, which creates acidity. Thus care must be taken to neutralize excess acidity, by using compounds like Effective Calcium Carbonate."https://www.smart-fertilizer.com/articles/urea-fertilizers/

Besides acidic & salty Urea, the below fertilizer has too much acids: copper sulfate, ferrous sulfate, magnanese sulfate, zinc sulfate. Sulfate is acidic, I once killed 3 rhododendrons with ferrous sulfate. Plus it has cheap, but salty muriate of potash with salt index of 116.2, and urea is salty at salt index of 74.4, plus sodium borate is also salty.

Another problem with below fertilizer is systemic insecticide, so it kills ALL LIVING THINGS, including bacteria that fixes nitrogen. Plants can't use pure-chemical urea, it has to be converted to ammonia, or ammonium ions by soil bacteria.

If there's rain, (pH of rain is 4.5 in urban area like mine), that will release more of the acids and salts in the below fertilizer, enough to kill roses. Since below fertilizer's nitrogen at 14 can't be used by plants, what's left is salty muriate of potash at 11, and phosphorus at 12. Too much phosphorus zaps out potassium. Without potassium to regulate water osmosis, roses break down in blackspots. Also there's beneficial bacteria in the soil that suppress fungi. Any "systemic insecticide" formula will kill soil microbes, thus promote fungal growth like blackspots. I got the worse blackspots back in 1996 when I used Bayer's fertilizer with systemic insecticide, plus there's zero butterflies nor bees in my garden back then.

You sold me on molasses. I’ll try it out! 😀 Thank you for highlighting the difference between the different forms of nitrogen in fertilizer. I would never have known! I really appreciate how you recommended the safer and cost-effective fertilizers and amendments to use. I’ll make sure to avoid urea fertilizers.

Another question: since potassium zaps out nitrogen, should I hold off on giving the gypsum-potash solution to roses that have the nitrogen deficiency? Maybe give gypsum water only (no potash)?
Classic example shown of Eden (which I gave masterblend and gypsum-potash water to):

Michelle: The above yellow leaves on Eden is from drought (too dry), rather than nitrogen deficiency (occurs on LOWEST leaves only). Below is nitrogen deficiency on my roses after 2 weeks of constant rain that leaches out nitrogen. Nitrogen deficiency is yellowing that starts at the tip, plus LEAVES DO NOT FALL off with nitrogen deficiency, but LEAVES FALL OFF with drought.

Eden likes it alkaline at pH above 7.5, so SKIP the vinegar/potash/gypsum mix (too acidic). Plus you don't want to give sulfur (for growth) to a climber, it will get too tall.

Masterblend NPK 4-18-38 is good for Eden since it's low nitrogen, enough phosphorus for branching (rounder bush), plus potassium for flowering. Higher in nitrogen means higher salt, and more salt will worsen drought.

Zillion petals like Eden does better in high-magnesium clay, and potting soil doesn't have magnesium for moisture-retention, thus Eden is prone to drought (yellow leaves, then fall off).

I recognize drought since we had drought in late fall 2020, 1/2 of Poseidon leaves turned yellow, then dropped off at warm temp. See excerpt from below link:

Look for the following symptoms in times of short-term drought.

• Temporary Wilting. Wilting and drooping leaves will occur during the day. Leaves will recover and appear normal by morning.

Yellowing Leaves. Prior to dropping foliage, leaves will turn yellow and exhibit fall color.

• Leaf Scorch. Leaf margins will have a brown or burned appearance. (Figure 2)
• Defoliating Trees. Trees will generally begin to lose their leaves from the top and branch ends.

https://www.aces.edu/blog/topics/landscaping/drought-and-landscape-trees-effects-signs-and-watering-guidelines/

Thanks! That makes so much sense. I thought it was weird that so many of the potted roses seemed to be showing yellowing leaves.

We are in the middle of a very bad drought. My area got less than 5 inches of rain last year! I was playing around with the watering intervals by doing the wilt test that someone suggested but I guess I pushed it too far with 4 days of not watering. It was an indeterminate test because most roses didn’t even wilt with the exception of Poseidon and Eden. The yellowing leaves were a delayed indicator of thirst.
The only roses that have not shown drought symptoms are red Eden, moonlight in Paris, bolero (I think this has to do with her amended soil which holds water well, but everything else is in the original nursery leaf compost).

And thank you for pointing out that the yellow leaf falling off means drought! That is a really important clue. Shown is Marc Chagall. The yellow leaves fall off when I touch them.

I was watering every other day originally, but Straw, you had diagnosed some roses as waterlogged/overwatered. My gut feeling is that every other day is still the right interval, but I might need to drill more holes in the sides of all my pots. I have also figured out the minimum amount of water before it drains out. 1/4 gallon of water per 5 gallon pot seems to work for me.

When these roses go into the ground, they’ll benefit from drip irrigation 3x a week but less gypsum-potash mixture that they will get with regular hand watering.

Michelle: Once you get Eden into wet clay, pruning it short will grow new shoots with blooms. Zeph. Drouhin is a once-bloomer-climber but it's having a 2nd flush (new buds) since I pruned it short down to 2 feet after its 1st flush. I did the same with occasional-repeat Duchess de Rohan. I got that as a tall & lanky plant and I left in a plastic bag. It rained overnight, and the roots was waterlogged with leaves turning yellow. So I chopped the plant really short (1 foot tall), and it gave me 2 flushes after that !!

Thank you for your pics. Water-logged roses have yellow leaves AT BOTTOM, but drought-roses have more yellow leaves throughout the plant.

MG-moisture-control potting soil changes its formula in recent years to more sawdust & chunks of bark and less peat moss (more oxygen, but less water to roots). Previous years of pulling out roots in Oct. to plant in the ground: the pots were SOAKING WET at bottom. Previous years I watered my pots every other day, now I have to water them twice a day.

Last month I pull out Abraham Darby from the pot to plant into the ground, and it was damp, not wet at bottom. But its root was solid from more air with fluffy "forest products".

This year I had to water my pots twice a day, despite cooler summer. I give each pot 1 1/2 cup water each time, or 3 cups of water total for a 3 to 4 gallon pots. I figure that each gallon of soil loses 1 cup of water per day.

I did put some sticky clay on top of thornless Leander but it hates that. So far OK with topping pots with 1/2 cup alfalfa meal with 2 TBS lime and they hold moisture better .. this is for acidic rain. But for alkaline tap water, either skip Garden Lime (has 12% magnesium but high pH of 10) or just a touch (1 TBS.) helps potting soil to retain more moisture. Alfalfa meal pH is 5.8, but it gives off more acid if fermented in water.

It's not safe to use salty chemical soluble with the new MG-potting soil (too dry). I can't get my roses to be 3 feet tall like with the old-peatmoss MG-potting soil (own-root Double Delight was 3 feet tall, same with Versigny in a wet pot). I quit using the below fertilizer since Versigny and Double Delight didn't survive zone 5 winter. Looking back it was poor-drainage clay, rather than poor-root-system.

Since the below fertilizer is hard to dissolve in tap water, my new approach is to mix the below with alfalfa meal in water and let it sit for 1 day (if less alkaline water) or 2 days (if very alkaline tap water). Alfalfa meal has calcium but can't be made soluble unless soaked in water for at least 1 day.

The Miracle-Gro Nature's Care ORGANIC FERTILIZER has NPK 10-3-6, low-salt ingredients: "Derived from: Hydrolyzed feather meal, MEAT and Bone meal, Blood meal, and Sulfate of Potash". See below picture, it's $7.49 from Amazon. MG also sells another organic fertilizer but with muriate of potash (twice the salt).

I used below low-salt organic NPK 10-3-6 for 2 years and it's not stinky & doesn't attract thrips. I'm going back to using less-salt soluble. My daughter tested a bunch of fertilizers and soil mixes on mungbean sprouts in 8th grade-science project, and the below fertilizer resulted in the best bean-sprout growth (no urea to hurt tiny seedlings).

MasterBlend 4-18-38 is fantastic in pumping out blooms for roses in the ground, but has muriate of potash (twice the salt of sulfate of potash). Masterblend's higher trace elements deepened the blooms' color on my Dee-lish in partial shade. Below are the best looking blooms I got from Dee-lish for its past 6 years as own-root in 4 hrs. of sun.

Thank you for that tip on eden. I am planning to plant her in a few days.

And wow! I cant imagine watering 2x a day. What a labor of love! No wonder your roses love you; they are so well taken care of!!

So you quit using Nature’s care for poorly draining soils?

I agree that nature’s care is safe for seedlings and young plants. I’m growing nasturtium, orlaya, snapdragon and delphium from seed. so far they love it. I did notice there were a lot of dregs with nature’s care though. That is a very helpful tip with the alfalfa meal and premixing.

I also started using it on flowering vines in conjunction with morbloom for a gentle balanced npk ratio. Together the two fertilizers are 10-13-16. Now that flowering season is over, I’m trying to make the vines put on more green growth and fill in their space. These were all planted in April as 15 gallon vines (pink jasmine and star jasmine).

I love fragrant plants!

Wow !! Beautiful pink and star jasmine .. I wish I could smell them once they bloom. We don't have jasmine in zone 5, but stores here sell white Gardenia (scent is too overpowering, I prefer roses). I love your white fence, is that a stucco, cement, or brick wall? My neighbor took out their old wooden fence and installed a much taller white plastic fence (came in sections), it looks really nice plus bunnies can't crawl under the fence into their garden.

Found that alyssum and snapdragon flowers both deter rabbits. Snapdragon flowers is actually poisonous to rabbits, same with avocado pit/skin and moldy corn .. I don't throw corn in my compost pile, but I do eat avocado daily. Snapdragon self-sown itself through the winter so I don't need to buy new plants in spring.

Nature's Care NPK 10-3-6 doesn't have enough phosphorus for own-roots to branch out. For zone 5 winter survival, I need a phosphorus of at least 10 for more branching of roots/stems.

Its actually two different fence styles. At the far end, we installed white vinyl fencing, which is super low maintenance for us. We kept the existing gray cinder block wall to save money, and simply painted it white to match. A coat of white paint does wonders to brighten up old drab structures and the surrounding area! It might be the most bang for your buck thing you can do if you ever are thinking of a fence makeover.

We had our wedding reception at a Chinese banquet hall. My husband and everyone else thought my white dance floor rental was unnecessary. When it was installed, they ate their words. It brightened up that place and made the photos 1000% better because it really helped with lighting. Same principle applies here with the fence. It makes the green really pop!

The white paint and the continuation of the diamond vine design unify the two fence styles.

I was thinking of growing gardenia but heard they are susceptible to disease. Philadelphus is one that I’m growing. It is one of my favorite flower scents (neroli) so far. I have the belle etoile cultivar but am looking to collect others.

Oh Strawchicago...there's more to the story...our well water is ph7....but I make a tea with weeds (so my husband will pull them and I enjoy pulling them) but I did not realize how alkaline it would make the water...last year I was putting left over milk keifer (acid) in it to add to the good bacteria...this year I didn't have extra, but I have figure it out now and can add some when weeds get added. I will also add some Effective Microorganisms which are also acid and should help my soil life. Funny how it never occured to me that a small change (not putting in milk keifer) would make a huge difference.....I also wonder if that is why vinegar is used as a weed killer on alkaline weeds or maybe they become alkaline in breaking down?

Really fascinating!!

Nonetiquette: Love all your garden shots: bright & clean and well designed. I am a fan of white background. When our house was built in 2000, I chose white sidings .. and the house's white color bright up my day. The neighbor's white fence also brighten up my day. Plus flowers look good next to a white fence.

Ann Beck and Carol: I use a bit of yogurt when I make fermented veggies. The veggies get soured faster if I add just a touch of plain yogurt.

Some weeds prefer acidic soil vs. others prefer alkaline soil. The majority of shallow-cluster roots-weeds prefer neutral to acidic soil. My neighbor used Menard's top soil to fill holes in her lawn, and that sprouted 5 different types of weeds. Her lawn company spread lime to kill the weeds.

I get cluster-root-weeds on the edge of my driveway (loose & shallow soil), so I sprinkled garden lime and that killed the weeds. In contrast, deep-tap-root weeds like dandelions and thistles can take rock-hard & alkaline clay. Below link is interesting, it states that dandelions likes heavy & compacted & acidic clay as well as fertile & higher pH clay. So having dandelions is good, it means that one's soil is rich in nutrients.

Having clover means soil pH is neutral to slightly acidic, plus clover can mean lack of nitrogen or high in potassium. I didn't have clover 20 years ago when my soil pH was 8 with rock hard clay. Now with decades of heavy rain, I have lots of sweet clover (yellow blossoms) where soil is made fluffy with rain.

https://bcfarmsandfood.com/weeds-that-indicate-soil-conditions/

Perfect Straw....my husband was adding lots of sorrel and plantain...both alkaline! You solved it again! So funny that both of those are my husband's favorite weeds to pull!

Ann beck, your idea of making tea with weeds is so interesting. It reminds me of something I read recently about Korean Natural Farming technique.

https://www.motherearthgardener.com/organic-gardening/techniques/korean-natural-farming-basics-zm0z20uzbut

“Fermented Plant Juice. The simplest Korean Natural Farming fertilizer, fermented plant juice, is a liquid derived from a mixture of brown sugar and local plants.

“Select a plant that’s vigorous and healthy on its own without inputs,” Englander says. “For example, use nettles, seaweed, or comfrey. You’re looking for something that has pretty thick and robust leaves.” Harvest plants early in the morning, when they have the highest growth potential due to the large amount of moisture content, enzymes, and nutrients.

Cut the plants into small pieces, and then mix the plant material in a glass or ceramic jar with brown or cane sugar at a ratio of 1-to-1 by volume. Fill the jar two-thirds full, which allows space for fermentation to occur. Cover the jar, and let sit for one week.

At the end of the week, strain out the plant parts and compost them. Return the liquid to a clean jar, and store it in a cool, dark place, where it’ll last for years.

To apply fermented plant juice, dilute it with rainwater at a ratio of 1-to-500. (Don’t use municipal water sources that contain chlorine.) This fertilizer is most effective when used as a root drench or foliar spray on young plants that need more nitrogen, potassium, and healthy microbes. Englander sprays it on seedlings as a foliar mix after transplanting. The mixture is UV sensitive, so apply it early in the morning or on a day that’s cool and cloudy.”

Comprehensive beginner’s guide: https://sproutingfam.com/natural-farming#How_To_Make_Liquid_Bio-Fertilizer

”This is what KNF is known for. By feeding soil its own local compounds in a bioavailable form, the soil’s pH levels adjust themselves to where they should be, and it also helps unlock and promote the uptake of nutrients in the soil by the plants.”

Straw, you may have seen this before but the part in the JADAM intro video about using sulfur as a pesticide is particularly interesting (6:32): https://youtu.be/GD9Z5qo285M?list=PLba0q5T16c0VFr272n7yCtiR8QcnSgviS

:) :)

Cluster rooted plants like acidic soil. I've been adding small bits of Lilly Miller's Acidic fert. to my strawberry plants. They're the best they've ever been (these are new plants sent in the mail)...but the leaves are big and the berries are so sweet!! They'd always been sour before.

Rosecanadian, I have a ton of strawberry groundcover this year. It does produce very tiny edible strawberries, but i havent seen a single one! Maybe the birds are too quick to gobble them up or maybe there’s not enough nutrients. I did see blackspots as well. Sweet strawberries are the best!

Straw, question for you: you had said that you fertilize once a week. What do you do to healthy roses that aren’t exhibiting deficiencies? Do you still give them fertilizer, molasses, etc? Or do you wait until nutrients are out of balance?

Nonetiquette: I no longer push tiny own-roots to grow fast by too much fertilizer. If roses are healthy, I leave them alone and stick to my once a week SOLUBLE fertilizer for nitrogen like MG-organic Nature's Care NPK 10-3-6 (that gave the most healthy leaves since it's low-salt).

All nitrogen-fertilizers are acidifying (worse with acidic rain), or else nitrogen fertilizer make roses too tall in hot & dry. Too much molasses attract pests (thrips, sawfly). Flies actually prefer sweet donuts over rotting meat in one study.

Too much phosphorus make ugly & brown burnt in lowest leaves. My neighbor, a Ph.D. in botany pushes his tomatoes for more fruits with high phosphorus soluble, and his tomatoes already have burnt lowest leaves as of today July 22. His plants expire 1 month before frost .. my tomatoes still look good in November until frost kills them.

The only nutrient that needs to be supplied constantly is sulfur (for growth), plus potassium (for water osmosis), and calcium (the building-blocks for plant tissue). I did sulfate of potash/gypsum solution twice a week and roses in pots were much healthier than with granular fertilizer.

I can't control the release of granular fertilizer: if we get tons of rain, then granular fertilizer dissolve ALL AT ONCE, then I get fertilizer burns or pots become too acidic. So I prefer weak but frequent soluble-fertilizer like sulfate of potash/gypsum twice a week for roses in ground, or 3 times for roses in pots. Once a week organic soluble NPK 10-3-6 is enough to make leaves & provide phosphorus. Below is Yves Seedling when I watered it twice a week with sulfate of potash & gypsum. Sulfur enables growth and dark-green leaves, Calcium gives zillion of petals, and potassium makes blooms larger. This weekend I'll buy a bag of gypsum for pale Austin roses in the ground, applying alfalfa meal for sulfur isn't enough for the very pale own-root Austin Leander and St. Cecilia.

Straw — are you using soluble fish emulsion &/) or kelp/seaweed in any of your applications?

Fish emulsion is ideal for roses but would be too expensive for my many roses. Kelp as in Pennington Alaska pellets (with alfalfa meal & kelp & fish bone meal) gave a nice pink blush to my white Mary Magdalene, but that gets expensive.

So cost is the only reason why I don't use fish & kelp for my many roses. But I'm very impressed with fish emulsion after the neighbor showed me her pepper plant loaded with fruits in a tiny pot & very healthy, and she never change the soil for the past 3 years. She watered it with Fish emulsion once a week.

There's a poster Bailey in southern CA who posted a pic. of his Young Lycidas loaded with blooms (120 blooms for spring flush) in a pot, fertilized with salmon bits and shrimp shells. Compared that to 5 blooms for my Young Lycidas (also grafted) in dense clay.

I'm convinced that FRESH organics (alfalfa meal, fish emulsion) far outperform chemicals. Also gypsum and sulfate of potash, Langbeinite are mined products & natural minerals from the earth.

In contrast, chemicals work faster and dissolve easier in alkaline tap-water but with lesser health.

I completely agree with Straw about long term health of the plant with organics! Then there is you soil and in the ground soil life is so important. I am living on a part of a former orchard that was probably sprayed regularly...all the trees died of blight. 40 years later and my soil is very poor. I keep working on in, but pots are easier for the moment. Still roses are not tomatoes and I want my roses to do well enough that I can eventually put them in my soil. (I still have spots where weeds won't even grow on the bare dirt!) Currently, I am trying the Effective Microorganisms from Korean Natural Farming. Mycorrhizal-fungi seem to help when I plant or pot the rose, but so much work for a large area or lots of pots when you throw high ph water on them. AND Learning from Straw and others is so heplful!

Straw — thanks — have very few roses (9) and such a tiny urban garden — so I’ll keep going with the kelp/fish emulsion. I’ve been trying to find a local beach where it’s allowed to collect the eelgrass/seaweed to mulch with as that’s supposed to be fantastic. But haven’t found one yet.
Btw - I tried to do a search for your perspective on greensand, but I’m limited to an ipad these days and afraid the houzz search function doesn’t work so well for me. Have you used it? Are there any circumstances you’d recommend it?

Straw - since my acid-mess of the spring (still not fully fixed)...I shudder when I read that you're adding gypsum. Now, obviously it's working...but I don't understand why it's not making everything too acidic. Oh,...maybe it's because your tap water is really, really alkaline?

Non - My strawberries have never had blackspot. I didn't even know they could get BS. I just looked through my notes from Straw...and BS is from too alkaline soil. Maybe you should add some acidic fert like Lilly Millers Fert for Acid loving plants? Straw will correct me if I'm wrong...so wait for her to respond. :)

Maybe all the lime I put in my pots is the reason why my blooms have so many petals. :)

What are the benefits of kelp meal? I have some...and I can't remember what it does. Thanks!

Straw, my bolero’s soil is getting more moldy. A mushroom even popped up! There are the beginnings of powdery mildew and the curled up leaves on the new growth. This pot has the pea gravel and alfalfa meal layered on top. I have been giving bolero Nature’s care and gypsum/potash/molasses.

Might this be a drainage problem related to the alfalfa meal or fertilizers being too acidic? This pot has extra holes drilled in the sides, but the mold on top makes me think that the top layer is retaining a lot of water due to alfalfa meal. What do you think I should do?

Nonetiquette z10b You are right on being too acidic and too wet. Pea-gravel can't neutralize the acid of alfalfa meal. Pea-gravel releases its alkaline minerals if under wet soil, if on top it's very slow to break down.

Bolero doesn't like it soaking wet like Austin roses. My 1st Bolero in full-sun & dry clay was twice more vigorous than my 2nd Bolero in soaking wet clay with only 4 hours of sun.

Bolero has dark-green & glossy foliage and PREFER alkaline pH. I killed my 2nd Bolero when I moved it to wet peatmoss-potting soil & clay and alfalfa meal (I did put some lime, but not enough). We had 2 weeks of rain (3 to 6" per day), and the alfalfa meal got too sour and killed Bolero.

Lesson learned: I won't mix any alfalfa meal & lime with soil unless the drainage is fast like with my pots where I drilled at least 10 extra holes.

Gypsum/potash/molasses solution is very acidic, I use for rock-hard clay at pH 8, and on red-roses which have a higher need for iron.

Bolero bloomed well with my alkaline water at pH 9 (fixed with 1 TBS sulfate of potash and gypsum), so it will bloom well with your tap water at pH 7.7, plus any fertilizer which has nitrogen will lower the pH.

Below is my 2nd Bolero in wet & acidic poor-drainage clay, before I moved it. Note sulfur deficiency (the entire plant is pale & stunt) from low pH with tons of acidic rain (pH 4.5). Leaves lots its shine due to too acidic.

Below is my 1st Bolero in full sun & dry clay watered with pH 9 tap-water, fixed with sulfate of potash & gypsum. Note lots of blooms & dark-green leaves. Soil pH is 7.7, topped with horse manure at pH 8.

Bush shot of 1st Bolero grown in full sun & dry and alkaline clay:

Below is 3rd Bolero in a pot, I put 2 TBS of Garden lime POWDER (22% calcium and 12% magnesium) to neutralize the acidity of 1/3 cup of alfalfa meal on top. Pic. taken July 14, got it as tiny rooting (3" tall) late April. Note the alfalfa meal on top is always dry since there's at least 10 extra holes to cope with heavy rain here.

Pots accumulate more rain than roses in my clay. The pots used to be soaking wet with the old MG-potting with 100% peatmoss. Back then roses in pots didn't bloom as much as the new MG-potting soil (slight damp, but not soaking wet). Potassium is most available in damp soil, rather than too dry or too wet.

Aerbk: About green sand: I did research on that, and there's NOT ENOUGH potassium. To keep roses healthy in a pot, I need a potassium of at least 16 as in MG-soluble for plants NPK 24-8-16, or MG-soluble for roses at 18-24-16.

Carol: Kelp has many trace elements for dark green leaves and deep colors on blooms.

Too acidic cause fungal growth: mildew, blackspot, rust. I killed plenty of roses with too acidic soil (organics fermented with tons of rain).

Too alkaline makes leaves ugly with iron def (upper leaves pale with dark green veins), or zinc def (mottled-yellow and tiny leaves), but I never kill any roses with too alkaline. Below is zinc deficiency on Governor Rosellini rose from high pH, after topped with very alkaline soil. Long story of why it happened. But I post pics. here to show that too alkaline cause ugly leaves, but IT'S STILL BLOOMING WELL. Note the tiny leaves and mottled-yellow of zinc deficiency, pH near 9:

Below is bush-shot of Governor Rosellini in slightly alkaline soil: Note the LARGE UPPER leaves, typical of alkaline pH

Straw - thanks for the greensand info. I assume you also mean - not enough potassium — using it in the ground as well?

Btw - I was just rereading your posts about using Roses Unlimited’s formula for the planting hole. I have some CPM’s, a Buff Beauty,and a Perle d’or I need to plant in the ground. None are tiny own roots anymore — I grew them on in pots for a couple years or so. They’re pretty chunky now. Would you still use that same formula for them? Or how would you adjust it for that?

Wow Straw, you made my Friday! I got one diagnosis right 😁 Thank you for explaining in detail about the needs of bolero. I gotta fix her soil then!

And your boleros are beautiful. Are the leaves supposed to be that elongated in the second pic? It’s so interesting, almost doesn’t look like rose leaves!

Oh another question, I am planning to remove the alfalfa meal but should I keep the pea gravel on top? Will natures care or gypsum/potash solution be acidic enough to release the minerals? Or maybe I should ditch the pea pebbles and just add molasses for trace minerals to the gypsum-potash solution?

Thanks, Straw! I went out to get some more langbeinite and I also ended up getting some humic acid because the package said that it helps buffer pH. Most of my roses are on the mend (THANK YOU!!) with glossy leaves (THANK YOU!!!)...and they're getting blooms too. YAY!! I didn't think this would ever work out. And, man...did I learn from you!! But, I still have a few roses that I can't figure out what to do...so I thought...try this pH buffer. I'll see how it goes. I'm also thinking that maybe some of the damage is from spider mites. My roses have never had spider mites...but I have had 2 red (tiny) insects (look like spider mites) that have crawled onto my hand on different days. I don't see any webbing though.

Maybe I'll take some pictures of my new glossy rose leaves. :)

Oh and good job diagnosing Nonetiquette!!!

Nonetiquette z10b Per your questions: "I am planning to remove the alfalfa meal but should I keep the pea gravel on top? Will natures care or gypsum/potash solution be acidic enough to release the minerals? Or maybe I should ditch the pea pebbles and just add molasses for trace minerals to the gypsum-potash solution?"

Nature's Care NPK is 10-3-6, that will provide enough phosphorus if you use twice a week at 1/2 dose. Nature's Care is NOT ACIDIC enough to dissolve hard-minerals. Its potassium at 6 is not enough, and there's zero calcium. So you still need gypsum/potash but SKIP THE VINEGAR since Bolero likes it alkaline. I would use twice more gypsum than potash since Bolero has zillion of petals and it needs more calcium.

Alfalfa meal is best in a solution, I would remove both alfalfa meal and pea gravel and dunk that in a bottle of water, then add gypsum and sulfate of potash. The acid from the alfalfa meal (in a solution) will dissolve the minerals.

SKIP molasses since any sugar will attract flies (thrips, sawfly). You'll get plenty of trace-elements from alfalfa meal in a solution. Molasses at 20% iron is best for red roses which have a higher need for iron.

I use a wide-mouth large plastic bottle (laundry detergent, milk jug, or Tropicana OJ bottle), then add fertilizer tailored for each rose. Bolero bloomed well when I fertilized it with high phosphorus chicken manure, but each bloom was on weak neck thanks to potassium being lower than phosphorus, plus high phosphorus attracted thrips. Note the high branching from high phosphorus, but low potassium makes the stem thin and weak. Plus the blooms were small. Same result when I used MG-soluble for roses NPK 18-24-16. Below bush was in only 4 hrs. of sun.

High phosphorus works best initially for branching, but prolonged use will result in accumulated phosphorus resulting in zinc and iron deficiencies. Phosphorus mobility is a 1, it doesn't leach out. Potassium mobility is a 3, it gets leach out, but not as much as nitrogen (mobility is 10, it moves with water). Nature Care's NPK 10-3-6 is ideal.

aerbk: Thank you for your fantastic questions: "I was just rereading your posts about using Roses Unlimited’s formula for the planting hole. I have some CPM’s, a Buff Beauty,and a Perle d’or I need to plant in the ground. None are tiny own roots anymore — I grew them on in pots for a couple years or so. They’re pretty chunky now. Would you still use that same formula for them? Or how would you adjust it for that?"

Re-post Roses Unlimited' formula for the planting hole: 1 cup dolomitic lime, 2 cups alfalfa meal, 1 cup gypsum, 2-gallon compost (for phosphorus), 2-gallon peat moss (for moisture), 2-gallon top soil (for minerals), 2-gallon clay (for potassium).

Note the high amount of calcium: 1 cup of Garden lime (22% calcium and 12% magnesium) plus 1 cup of gypsum .. calcium is needed for root-growth & zillion petals and solid branch.

Young own-roots start out as cluster and can take the acid in gypsum, but NOT when they are older and roots become woody & chunky. I killed 3 matured-own-root roses when I planted in clay recently fixed with gypsum. So I would skip the gypsum, but still keep 1 cup of Garden lime to neutralize the acidity of 2 cups alfalfa meal, plus 1 cup of lime to neutralize the acidity of 1 gallon peat moss.

Agree with Kimmsr in the Soil forum on the pH values. I tested the pH of DRY alfalfa meal (around 5) but once soaked in water it becomes more acidic like pickled green veggies. When I made pickled veggies, 2 days soak in water is enough to lower the pH, even with salt added to delay the souring.

Kimmsr "Peat moss, organic matter, has a pH of around 4.5 or so. Oak leaves, organic matter, has a pH of around 3.2 and pine needles, organic matter, has a pH around 3.7."

Carol: so glad that your leaves are glossy !! Spider Mites like it hot (such as next to hot brick border), and they don't like partial shade or cool-showering of water. I always wet the leaves of roses in full-sun too cool them down. We get up 90 F after June 1.

It's easy to fix too alkaline but hard to fix too acidic since lime is SLOW to move down, and it takes months for lime to neutralize the acidity of soil. See excerpt from below link:

https://www.amaglab.com/lime-requirements/

"Finely ground, high quality lime can take months to neutralize soil acidity. Incorporating lime to a depth of 6-7 inches will provide the most rapid pH response. In no-till situations, neutralization will take much longer.

Apply lime as far in advance of planting as possible, incorporating to a depth of 6-7 inches. No-till situations, should be 30% of the full incorporated lime rate."

Since lime takes months to neutralize the acidity of organic matter, I find it faster to dissolve Garden Lime in water to fix acidity. Below Sonia Rykiel's leaves were previously pale (sulfur deficiency) from 2 weeks of acidic rain, it STOPPED growing since calcium were leached out with constant rain. Too acidic: dull leaves then become pale (sulfur deficiency at pH < 6), then zero growth. Calcium is needed for growth of stem, roots, leaves & flowers.

I put 2 TBS of Garden Lime mixed with water, and watered it. Within 2 days leaves became dark-green and pumped out new growth with buds. Note the new growth has normal & shiny leaves, versus DULL old leaves of sulfur deficiency. Pic. taken today July 24 at 70% humidity and 89 F:

Thanks Straw! You’re just a lifesaver! For the bolero concoction, what would you recommend for the ingredient ratios? I don’t want to mess up again! I’ve seriously mistreated this bolero and it’s just starting to recover 😕
And Carol, I think have spider mites too, but on my ficus hedges and star jasmine vines. The damage is not pretty. All I can do is hose it off and move all my potted plants away from them.
Pics of webs and damage. I think the black dots are droppings or eggs?

Straw - many thanks! Total urban gardener question — I have never seen bagged clay in any local city garden center. Thoughts on what and where to order? Would think clay’s pretty heavy to ship….

aerbk: red-lava-rock is a good sub. for red-clay, and it's alkaline at pH 8. Red-lava- rock is high in magnesium and glues soil together. I once ordered a bag of crushed red-lava from Amazon for $10. Didn't help since my clay is too high in magnesium & high in iron.

Another sub. for clay is cocoa mulch, high in potassium and magnesium. Doesn't help since my clay is already high in potassium and magnesium. Cocoa mulch "glues" soil together. Sold cheap at $5 per huge bag (big like mulch-bag).

Nonetiquette z10b I would poke 3 large holes on the side (nearest to the bottom), or else elevate the pot on bricks for faster drainage. My 1st Bolero bloomed best when it was in a fast-drainage spot pre-fixed with gypsum (for calcium and sulfur).

When I bought Stephen Big Purple as own-root end of June .. it refused to grow, until I elevated the pots on bricks for fast drainage.

Bolero has glossy foliage thus do well with high potassium fertilizer. There's a Bolero which I rooted and grew in a pot, fertilized weekly with MG-soluble for roses NPK 18-24-16, it was slow in blooming, until I topped with Tomato Tone NPK 3-4-6 and it bloomed lots. Tomato Tone has 8% calcium, 3% nitrogen, 4% bone-meal for phosphorus, 6% sulfate of potash, 2.5% sulfur. But I got acidic rain that broke down solids in Tomato Tone. Tomato Tone has chicken manure (high in boron, copper, and zinc).

Is your Bolero own-root or grafted-on-Dr.Huey? It doesn't matter since the own-root can bloom easily with my alkaline tap at pH 9. Roses grafted on Dr.Huey also blooms well with alkaline-tap water.

I would use MasterBlend NPK 4-18-38 with high trace elements to force Bolero to bloom in hot & dry weather. Nature's Care NPK 10-3-6 is too high in nitrogen, great for high-rain month, but resulted in too tall during hot & dry. When I tested Nature's Care alone for roses in pots, they are healthy from its low-salt, but stingy in blooms.

Since Bolero has zillion of petals, it needs high calcium. Also sulfur for dark-green leaves. Thus gypsum (calcium sulfate with 20% sulfur) is needed. Skip sulfate of potash since you already get 38 in potassium from MasterBlend. Osmocote PLUS NPK 15-9-12 provides slow-released nutrients in between watering once a week with MasterBlend. Osmocote and MasterBlend and Nature's Care NPK 10-3-6 don't have any calcium, so you still need gypsum to provide calcium for its zillion petals.

Bolero has glossy foliage so it needs high potassium but ALKALINE pH. Your tap water at pH 7.7 is perfect. 2 TBS of acidic gypsum per 3 gallons of water won't lower the pH much.

Straw — great tips - thanks much!

Straw - every time I look at all of my new roses with wonderfully glossy leaves...I think of you in thanks! :) :) My roses that are recovering are still really small since they didn't grow during this trying period. I'm hoping they start to grow. :) :)

NonEtiquette - well that's too bad. :( We're not due any rain for a long time. We've been pretty dry. Hopefully we'll both get rid of these spider mites. :)

Carol: I'm very happy that your roses are recovering. I wish that my roses in the ground look like your roses in pots: I love your roses' compactness & tons of blooms.

This thread is too long, so I started a new one, would love to see your garden & discoveries in below thread "Experiments in ground and in pots & lessons learned". Thank you.

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6153596/experiments-in-ground-and-in-pots-lessons-learned

Thanks, Straw!! A lot of my roses are too compact now. LOL Tiny shrimps.

You don't need to respond to this...I'll see you on your new thread. :)