MInshen: Windermere was recommended to me decade ago by a poster for its constant flowering and amazing scent. Too bad it's not offered as own-root. Both White Licorice and Evelyn like it alkaline. One year local Menards had lots of White Licorice on sale as bare-root .. I should had bought it for my alkaline clay.

Straw: I’m so happy to know that I’m not the only one finding Windermere awesome. I feel like he deserves so much more rave! No wonder neither Evelyn nor White Licorice like my garden. I’m not an expert on soil chemistry but I do believe our soil is more on the acidic side, because my hydrangeas are quite blue without any added amendments, though I think it’s quite clay-y too as opposed to sandy. It’s so fascinating what different soil can do to the health and performance of the same roses!

Minshen, I love that picture of sonnenwelt. How is your area for blackspot?

Hey Vapor!
I don’t usually get too much BS in our climate, although some DAs like Abe Darby do so badly regardless. The Kordes are usually completely clean, while many other roses get a little bit of BS here and there but nothing that warrants attention. Sonnenwelt has stayed totally healthy so far.

Minshen - wow! I really love your sonnenwelt!! Mmmmm :)

rosecanadian — thank you! Yes its been a great rose this year. Constant blooms too. Even got a nice scent. It’s so interesting that the same rose changes its look as it matures. I’m really glad I didn’t get rid of him last year after all! (And now I wonder if those that I did get rid of I should have given more time... hmmm)

Hum, I think that one of my 4 Desdamona must go. I think it is an ok rose but it doesnt speak to me smd I have 3 more

What was I thinking to get so many of them.

I am also mot so impressed with Peach Swirl although it is new and I will keep working on getting more color out of it. Right now it is just bery washed out.

Big surprise, Daybreaker. I love the the color and it just keeps pumping out the blooms.

Minshen, I'm curious what roses you got rid of last year.

Vapor: I got rid of Moondance — wasn’t particularly pretty or healthy at all. Lots of BS and die back. Regret buying that one. Francis Meilland I gave away last spring, because although the flowers are big and beautiful, he bloomed extremely stingy for me, and was just a super tall rose that only ever bloomed at the very top. New Dawn — too big, too thorny, blooms shattered faster than even the Austins. Going to yank White Meidilland later this year too after it’s done flowering — nondescript blooms that don’t speak to me. Will replace with Desdemona (that I can hopefully get next season).

And of course, the knockouts, lol. I used to have three tree form (standard) pink knockouts at the very back of our foundation bed. They were vigorous and provided enough color but I really could use the space for something I truly love. So I sold those on fb, and felt super.

I was on the fence about honeymoon arborose last year, and decided to give him one more season. Still waiting for his first flush this year to evaluate.

Oh and I did also give away one All Dressed Up. I like this rose but I simply had too many.

A nice surprise - The first three do not seem to be very popular, but I liked what I saw and read about them and took the plunge...

Siren's Keep (one of Paul Barden's)--- It could take filtered afternoon sun in a hot Summer climate and the purplish shade was unique...

Threads N Craft - It became one of my favorites

Hume's Blush Tea... Very dry heat tolerant and a workhorse- (wish I could find an image)

Nigrette - It is not spoken of much on the websites I visit, but in person, this rose is a beauty!! If you are looking for a true, dark red, absent purple... what some refer to as a black/ red... it could be worth considering. Christopher is no longer active on this forum, but he put this one on my radar...

Radio Times... I believe it was selected because what I really wanted was out of stock... It is one of my favorite David Austin Roses... I still frown when thinking about it being discontinued...

Disappointment - Ascot

I was hoping for beautiful bloom's like Diane's... Instead, all of my blooms were cherry red... That is not what I was hoping for...

Harlow Carr- Thorn city... It was the last rose that I would prune, and sometimes I skipped it altogether...

Wow! You are tough, Minshen! lynne, I have read and coveted most of those. Think they're hard to come by. I remember Cori ann used to grow threads and crafts and it was so beautiful in her garden. Is ascot always cherry red for you? Mine varies in color throughout the year. It does get a lot of blackspot though so disappointing there. I had read that, but thought I'd give it a try anyway. It's probably worth spraying that one. I Had Read That But Though tI'd give it a try anyway. It's probably where it's bring that 1. always cherry red for you? Mine berries and color throughout the year. It does get a lot of blackspot though so disappointing there. I had read that but thought I'd give it a try anyway. It's probably worth spraying that 1.

I Had Read That But ThoughtI'd give it a try anyway. It's probably where it's bring that 1. always cherry red for you? Mine berries and color throughout the year. It does get a lot of blackspot though so d always cherry red for you? Mine varies in color throughout the year. It does get a lot of blackspot though so disappointing there. I had read that, but thought I'd give it a try anyway. It's probably worth spraying that one.

@Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley

I took one look at Ascot's much anticipated blooms and almost shovel pruned it... My husband stopped me. Six months or so later, we moved and it was left in the garden... versus gifted to neighbors etc. I have considered trying Ascot again (it was offered to me just yesterday) now that we live in a different state, but I must admit to being more than a bit apprehensive.

I originally purchased Threads n Craft from Ludwig's via Agave... I do not remember if Cori-ann was a poster on the forum yet... I think she got her's from Palatine...

Yes. I think Cori Ann was already posting as she started in 2016, the same year I did. She left left 2/3 years later. Ludwig's had their sale in 2017 if I'm not mistaken. There was a lot of overlap there and I know she did not get hers from agave. I had quite a few ordered from there and they canceled on me. I did wanna mention that my 1st blooms from ascot were nothing to write home about and I was also very disappointed, but it is a blooming machine now and extremely beautiful. It is a much darker shade of red consistently than say florentina which is more of a cherry red.

Sorry about the repetition above. I don't know if it's mine

My first bordeaux bloom! Please don’t mind the rest of the dying bouquet. Doesn’t Bordeaux look perfect? And surprisingly very detectable nice fragrance too for a first year plant! I like the beautiful dark red color.

Minshen, I agree that Bordeaux is beautiful

Better get that one on my list.

Loser: So far Kiss Me Kate has been a dud for me. She’s only 2 so she gets one more year to not be a giant brown stick insect with 2 sad buds on top.

Winner: this Love Song was from the clearance rack at Stop and Shop and has literally never stopped trying to rise above her humble beginnings.

Lynn - what a shame that Radio Times is going to be discontinued. I keep thinking I'd like to get one. Beautiful roses! I've thought about getting Nigrette (not available anymore where I found it before)...but there's not that much info about it. Does your have a great fragrance? Man...your Threads and Crafts is gorgeous!!! Oh my!!

Minshen - wow! Your beautiful Bordeaux still looks beautiful!! It really outlasts the other roses as a cut flower!

Nicole - wow!!! Your Love Song is a winner, for sure!! It loves what you're doing for it!! What's the rose behind it?

@rosecanadian-

I never sniffed Nigrette’s blooms (pre- back surgery… I was not bending over to sniff anything…). I remember my husband sniffing the blooms and making a positive comment about the fragrance…Radio Times was discontinued, like many other roses D.A. puts on the chooping block (:. I hope to replace mine in the near future.…I need to check to see if it is out of patent…

Lynn - yeah, that's for sure. I'm so glad you're feeling better!!!! That's a good sign if your husband said something about the fragrance.

Bordeaux is a great rose here also for me and I believe for Daniela. It blooms a lot. Mine is in too much shade next to ballerina and does get a lot of black spot and cercospora so that is a drag. I'm thinking of switching her and Milano this year into m she gets black spot in her sun position. At least 1 of them can look good! nice because she smells wonderful. I Give up trying to type I just thanked you Lynn and wish you well on your back. I don't know what else I wrote.

Vaporvac - :)

About Face (grandiflora) failed my expectation since it's dull yellow in my alkaline dense clay, versus pretty orange for someone else with red loamy/sandy soil. Small comfort that below About Face takes heat well, blooms best when the temp is above 90 F.

Below Orange Solitude (gradiflora bred in Denmark) gave me 2 surprises: It blooms in cluster, nice orange, plus the scent improved from bug-spray the 1st year to clove/fruity in 2nd year. I like below Solitude better than About Face.

Oooh!! That's lovely!!! Pink and orange together in one rose!! Love!

I tried About Face in three different yards...hated it in every place we lived.

Below Young Lycidas (grafted on Dr. Huey) failed my expectation: too wimpy and floppy and had to be supported by a cage. The scent is fantastic. So wimpy that I should had planted in a large pot. It died through my zone 5 winter in dense & wet clay. Unless a rose is vigorous (like Lavender Crush on Dr.Huey), then it can grow its own-roots above the graft bunion. But I like Young Lycidas better than own-root Madame Isaac Pereire (takes 10 times more space).

Below rose Prairie Harvest is a nice surprise: always healthy as 8th-year-own-root. At first the bloom was boring & less petals, but it improved, see below:

Straw, that photo of Prairie Harvest convinced me I want it. Soft yellow with faint pink edges are the best yellows for me. 10 yr. Golden Celebration, own root, is a sparse, stingy dud and 1 yr. Julia Child, own root, died to the ground, leaving 1 cane, but making an impressive comeback. are both too yellow for my garden. I like Julia better than GC. I don't know why I never considered Prairie Harvest before.

strawchicago, tell me more about Prairie Harvest. Is it cane hardy? How much does it flower? Full bush picture would be great. How long did it take for it to get to be a rose you like? It and Moonlight Romantica are my current two choices for when I have a spot open up for a yellow rose.

Below is bush-shot of Prairie Harvest, it has very pretty leaves & cane-hardy. Took 2 years before the flowers have more petals, but it was my fault since I planted it in the worst spot possible: hard clay with rocks below. I don't get the reddish edge on yellow unless I use high-phosphorus chicken-manure. But I quit chicken-manure since I burnt a few roses by putting a thick wad on top.

Prairie Harvest' leaves are so glossy & pretty that it looks good even without flowers. It's drought-tolerant & I rarely water it. Can't take a bush-shot since it's on a steep hill against my house-siding, so I can only take a partial pic. from below the hill. Never see any diseases for the last 8 years as own-root. Got Moonlight Romantica as own-root from Roses Unlimited, looks nice so far, will post a bush-shot of it when the bloom opens.

Straw - wonderful yard shot!!! Your Prairie Harvest looks beautiful!! :) :)

I love those peonies and irises as well! Do you know which peony that is? Someone else grows Prairie Harvest I think. Is that joey? They also said it was a great rose unless it was you Straw and I'm getting confused.🙄😄

Not me Vaporvac, I have Buck's Mountain Music which I love, but Prairie Harvest is on my wish list for next time I make an order. I'm guessing you haven't gotten my message, trying to get hold of you about those Harison cuttings.

Mountain Music this morning

AOk, it is July so if it is a rose that will be a good one ( after a few years ) then you should know by now, right ?

We just came through some extreme heat and most of my roses werent fazed but a couple really crisped up.

So big dud and always had been for me is Ebb Tide. It was in a pot and was pretty lackluster. This year it got moved to a 4x4x3 planter box. It fried, it has black spot and the only blooms that it has had this year were about an inch across. It has never been great but now it is just taking up space. If it isnt any better by fall it is doing the shovel dance and Purple Lodge gets a bigger home.

Adobe Sunrise got 2 blooms and notjing more

Not even a sign of new growth. Thid one was new last fall and I really wsnt it to work out becaise the bloom colors are beautiful. Its funny because it doesnt even look or grow like a regular rose. Fingets crossed on that one.

Big surprise is Our Anniversary. Shiny, pretty , leaves and a quick rebloom. The color is awfully pretty too.

Hot Cocoa gets my vote for my favorite new rose. The foliage, the bush shape and the color just .ake me smile

I have a new baby HC sitting on my deck so I can smile twice as much.

I shoveled a mini that was just plain ugly. I dont mess around with ugly lol

Our Anniversary

Hot Cocoa

Kristine: Love the deep color of your Hot Cocoa. Rose park had a bed of Hot Cocoa, but the color is reddish brown (not pretty like yours). How's the scent of Hot Cocoa? So glad that I stay away from Ebb Tide after seeing it did well for a sandy soil for person (I have rock-hard clay). Thanks for the info.

Vaporvac: I don't know the name of that deep red peony (got from Walmart mix). Prairie Harvest pic. was taken this spring as 8th-year-own-root in only 4 hours of evening sun. Yellow can take shade best.

Joey: Looks like Queen Nefertiti is best for full sun & hot & dry climate, since it's NOT best for my wet clay with rose-slug in rainy weather. I SPENT 2 HOURS DIGGING for drainage in below spot, but it doesn't like my humid weather (6 days of flooding & non-stop rain), and came down with rose-slug. The scent is pure delight, very exotic (myrrh and floral, better than St. Cecilia). It's in 4 hours of evening sun:

Close up of Queen Nefertiti bloom, I would recommend this rose for hot & dry & fast-draining soil, plus full-sun which I don't have. The rabbits don't eat the bush since it's prickly.

Rouge Royal is a nice surprise as own root. Last year I almost killed it by planting it in an entire bag of cow manure: it came down with blackspot and lost all leaves (too much phosphorus). So I had to move it to my alkaline clay, and now it's 100% clean. The repeat is fast, about 1 week to its current 2nd flush. Pic. below is taken today July 1 after week-long of rain & humid weather. I constantly lime Rouge Royal since it likes alkaline. The scent is super-strong raspberry rose, I can smell it 4 feet away.

Joey - such a great color on your Mountain Music!! Love it!!

Kristine - shovel dance... :) :) :) The petals on your HC and OA are so lustrous!! mmmmmm :)

Straw - oooooh!!!! Super strong raspberry fragrance from SUCH a gorgeous rose!!! I really want this rose!!

Carol: You'll like Rouge royal, it's small for the pot. Zephrerin Drouhin (climbing) surprises me by having blooms from 1st week of May until now, July 1. Pic. Taken today. Scent is old-rose with a touch of raspberry, can smell its blooms from far away. Gets my vote for the longest flush: 2 months.

Roseseek's creation: Below Lynnie to the right is a CONTINUOUS BLOOMER as 10th-year-own-root, in only 3 hours of dappled sun. Left of it is FlowerCarpet which is eaten by rabbits, this FlowerCarpet got tree-root invasion (I solved it by digging down and putting cement blocks), but due to calcium-depletion the tissue are softer so rabbits devour.

Below 2nd FlowerCarpet doesn't get its calcium stolen by trees, so rabbits leave it alone & not eaten. I really need to enrich my soil where tree-roots once invaded.

Your ZD blooms for 2 months!! That's fabulous...I would love to smell the wafting fragrance. Nothing wafts here except for tree blossoms. I really like the coral blooms of ??Flower Carpet?? !!!! That is a really pretty rose...and you have really managed to figure out rose leaves!! Every rose you have is clothed in wonderfully glossy, healthy leaves!! I'm so proud of you!!!!

Straw — beautiful garden! Question about ZD - what do you think contributes to it’s long bloom for you? Is that typical?

Straw, I will have to check the scent of Hot Cocoa. It is short and I am old and stiff so the whole bending over thing doesnt hapoen too often.

Sorry Straw, I get no fragrance from HC.

Kristine: Thank you !! I detected zero scent from Rose park's Hot Cocoa despite someone said it has a cinnamon scent.

aerbk: Per your question: "Question about ZD - what do you think contributes to it’s long bloom for you? Is that typical?" My Zeph. Drouhin is a 6th-year-own-root and it's on a steep hill so I planted it deep (at least 6 inch. below ground), then I piled up a big bag of top soil yearly to prevent soil erosion. The soil there is wet thanks to thick layer of clay on top to seal moisture. As Zeph. Drouhin matures the blooming period gets longer since its roots go deeper to the rocks below for minerals.

The minute Zeph is done blooming with one cane I brutally chop it off down to 2 feet. So Zeph has more water & nutrients to pump out blooms on young canes, rather than wasting it on a dozen older canes." Below is Zeph Drouhin this early May, in only 4 hrs. of sun. Blooms last long in bouquets, up to 4 days. Still blooming now as of July 3.

Straw - beautiful! But I guess that means not the same bloom results training as a climber? My
Mother had 2 over an arch that were beautiful, but not that long a bloom period...

GASP!!! What a picture!!! Glorious!!

Roses that failed my expectations such as small & matte leaves Queen Nefertiti is NOT best for my dense & wet clay. My clay pH is alkaline in dry spots, but becomes acidic when rain water at pH 4.5 can't drain well in poor-drainage spots. Re-post pic. of wimpy Queen Nefertiti infested with sawfly/rose-slug after week-long rain this July. I need to move it the 2nd time to a drier spot !! Fixing the hole with a bag coarse sand wasn't enough for this very thorny Queen Nefertiti:

In contrast, GLOSSY & DARK GREEN and LARGE leaves Rouge Royal loves its soaking wet alkaline clay location. Large leaves means it needs more nutrients that clay can offer. Glossy means it prefers soaking wet. Dark green means it prefers alkaline pH.

I figure out below code for OWN-ROOT roses after realizing that roses which failed my expectations (Lady of Shalott) is not best for my dense clay. I had to move it 3 times, plus fixed my clay with a bag of coarse sand before own-root Lady of Shalott bloomed.

MATTE leaves like Carding Mill means it needs faster drainage & drier soil to stay healthy. Pale means it needs lower pH to bloom (acidic rain) as own-root. Lavender Crush has matte leaves and is prone to Blackspot like Carding Mill unless the drainage is fast. Matte leaves won't be best in poor drainage clay.

Below is 10-year-own-root pale & matte leaves Carding Mill taken 2nd flush, end of this June:

Pale GLOSSY leaves like thornless 6th-year-own-root Twilight Zone stay healthy even in poor-drainage clay. GLOSSY means it does best in soaking wet clay. PALE means it needs acidic rain to bloom well as own-root:

GLOSSY dark-green leaves like below 5th-year-own-root Betty White. GLOSSY means it likes soaking wet, and Betty White died in a dry-winter with no snow. DARK-GREEN leaves mean it prefer high pH to bloom. My glossy leaves Anna Promise also died through a dry winter & same with my 1st Bolero (glossy leaves). I really need to water the glossy leaves during dry winter. Below glossy & dark-green Betty White blooms well with horse manure at pH 8, in soaking wet dense clay:

Below DARK GREEN leaves Dee-lish (7th-year-own-root). DARK GREEN means it blooms well with higher pH, Dee-lish blooms very well with biochar at pH over 8. Leaves are NOT glossy so it can handle hot & dry better. Note the marked venation on the leaves (like Augusta Luise which does well in hot & dry).

Below is VERY DARK-GREEN, MATTE leaves Stephen Big Purple when it was a young own-root. With very dark green leaves, Stephen Big likes my alkaline clay at pH near 8. It has matte leaves (like Austin Leander) so it needs fast-drainage.

Hot & dry and sandy: tiny leaves consume less water & less nutrients. Matte leaves do well in fast drainage. Polyanthas like Marie Daly is drought-tolerant. Easy Does It has small leaves and does well for a sandy soil person. Drought-tolerant Earth-kind roses or China with small leaves & single-petals such as Mutabilis. Or less petals-China such as Old Blush. Small leaves & less petals and prickly Rugosa can handle dry and sandy, thus known as "Beach rose".

Rainy and sandy: tiny leaves consume less nutrients in sand that leaches out nutrients. Hybrid musk with SMALL and PALE leaves are best. Pale leaves bloom best with acidic rain.

Since rain leaches out both nitrogen and calcium in sandy soil, single-petals and less leaves roses are best. KORDES ROSES also thrive in wet & acidic and sandy & fluffy soil. I had to fix my wet clay with a bag of sand for Poseidon to be continuous blooming as own-root.

Below Pale & tiny leaves Blue Mist is always healthy in loamy soil but needs acidic rain to bloom. I had to fix my pH 9 tap water with vinegar & sulfate of potash & acidic gypsum for blooming:

Hot & dry and alkaline clay soil: Large, matte, and dark-green leaves like The Squire, Gene Boerner, About Face, Solitude, Stephen Big Purple, Intrigue, Perfume Delight, Double Delight. Large leaves has vigorous own-roots that can push through dense clay better.

Wet & poor drainage alkaline clay: Large, glossy and dark-green leaves like Betty White, Anna Promise, Pat Austin, Rouge Royal.

Wet & poor drainage acidic clay: Large, glossy and light-green leaves like Twilight Zone, Princess Anne. Below is Princess Anne, never see blackspots despite being in poor drainage clay with acidic rain accumulated. Leaves get very pale if watered with my pH 9 tap-water.

For more info. on the best types of own-roots for one's soil and climate, see below link:

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6141435/own-root-types-your-mistakes-and-successes-in-growing-roses#n=83

Strawchicago...The more I read, I often wonder if poor performance of roses is often due to a micro-climate issue and micro-climate soil. I originally layed out my rose beds according to color, but ph might have been a much better way to do it

Biggest surprise was how much weather and soil and newness can cause a rose to fool you. I got Madame Alfred Carriere last year we had cold, cold weather, probably the wrong soil and her nearly thornless canes were very thorny, with no blooms...I worked with High Country Roses and we decided she had to be miss-labeled...they sent a new one this year BUT...my original shot up in the hot weather, lost thorns and bloomed correctly...giving roses several years seems to be wise!

Ann: Agree that low-thorn own-root roses prefer fluffier & loamier soil, and HATE my DENSE CLAY. Frederic Mistral is low-thorn and it gave me only 2 blooms for 1st year despite getting big. So I fixed the soil with a bag of coarse sand plus sulfate of potash and it gave me 40+ blooms per flush.

Same with low-thorn Poseidon: refused to bloom in dense potting soil with SOLUBLE fertilizer, so I planted in my soaking wet clay made loamy & fluffy with a bag of sand, and it's a continuous bloomer.

Lavenderlace in Texas has both sand and clay in her garden. She reported that low-thorn Jude is miserable in clay, but blooms abundantly in sand. Yves Piaget is low-thorn, and it's a fantastic bloomer for those in hot & dry & loamy soil, but Yves seedling became a wimp in my dense clay.

The soil texture (rather than pH) can matter with low-thorn roses.

Dense clay is too rich in minerals and make roses thornier. Low-thorn roses have cluster root (like multiflora) and these cluster roots can't expand in cemented & dense clay.

Deep Purple (Kordes rose) is thornless and became wimpy in my dense clay, I had to replant it in fluffy potting soil.

Firefighter (low-thorn) bloomed best when I made my clay fluffy by mixing in acidic pine park. My first Firefighter was 3' x 2' and gave me 40+ blooms as 1st year own-root in clay made fluffy. My 2nd Firefighter gave me only 2 blooms in dense clay !!

Same with thornless Annie L. McDowell and low-thorn Marie Pavie: both bloomed best in fluffy potting soil, and become wimpy in my dense clay.

Folks in high-rain & sandy soil can grow fabulous low-thorn roses like Jude the Obscure, Heritage but both are very wimpy as own-roots for heavy clay. Below is low-thorn Firefighter which was most vigorous with clay made fluffy with pine-barks (the deer ate all the leaves):

Straw - these last posts had me googling low thorn roses. Heirloom Roses has this list of no/low thorn ones. Though I wouldn’t say CPM is low thorn — I am constantly getting stuck by her. Would you say yours is low thorn?

Ann — I used to have Mme Alfred Carriere growing in a huge trough/box we build on a roof deck — up a fire escape. Think the drainage was pretty good in that. Unfortunately she got killed by an ice storm one year. But your post makes me thing I should try her again, given our conditions…

https://www.heirloomroses.com/info/care/roses/thornless-roses/

aerbk7b: thank you for that link. I agree that CPM IS NOT LOW-THORN, it has such huge thorns but spaced a bit far apart. CPM had blackspot for the first 2 years in my dense & alkaline clay, then I made the top 7 inch. fluffy by digging in gypsum and sand. After that it has been clean for the past 8 years (it's 10th-year-own-root). Below is CPM in 4 hrs. of sun:

Charles Darwin is very low-thorn and it was stingy in my dense clay .. could not get it to bloom unless I douse it with SOLUBLE fertilizer. During spring rain, Chicago Botanical's loamy alkaline soil has the best blooming Charles Darwin, Heritage, and Souvenir de Mademoiselle (all these are low-thorn).

I'm growing Leander (low thorn) in a pot and it has cluster thin roots & can't take heavy soil. I had to mix in perlite to make the potting soil fluffier for root growth. When I plant it in the ground, I'll use the entire bag of coarse sand.

So I am trying to figure out where to plant a grafted Belinda's Blush because it has no thorns, but is grafted and has no fragrance. It would be perfect if it had fragrance and no thorns...It would go right by my front walk, with it's leaching lime for the DR. Huey. Off to test the orchard soil...well drained and probably alkaline...so good for Dr. Huey and will be protected from deer.