Thank you, floweraremusic (Andrea), for your desc. of your soil & climate and evaluation of own-root roses. When your soil is pale-gray-clay and like talc when dry, it means it's high in calcium. Calcium is essential for root and cane growth. No wonder own-root Rouge Royal gets so tall in your clay, versus so short in my black-gumbo clay. NO NEED FOR GYPSUM (CALCIUM SULFATE) for your clay. Gypsum makes my clay drier, but my soil test recommended gypsum.

My zone 5a winter is -20 F below zero, but Chicago's strong wind makes the windchill factor to be -30 F. We have heavy rain in short summer, at least 38" annual rain, but less snow in long winter, only 23" of snow.

My clay is deficient in calcium, due to high magnesium plus leaching of calcium in heavy rain. Soil test registered super-high in magnesium, magnesium is what makes clay sticky. A friend in Texas told me certain regions in Texas is so high in magnesium that it discolors the water.

When it's dry & hot, my black-gumbo-clay turns rock hard into big chunks of sticky clay (the size of oranges). I used to pour vinegar to dissolve hard-clay, but recent years of heavy rain SOFTENED my clay. But I still have to use a knife to scrape off sticky clay from my shoes. Last evening I used 1 1/2 HUGE bags of gypsum (40 lbs. for $5 at Menards), to break up clay in advance for next spring planting. I learn my lesson to put gypsum MONTHS in advance, after killing 2 own-root roses with gypsum's instant acid (sulfate). Gypsum is so acidic that it breaks down hard-clay immediately, BUT it also destroy roots if applied at planting time.

Chamblee's in Texas used to sell many own-root Austins like the Prince. Roses Unlimited NO LONGER SELL Christopher Marlowe, Pegasus, Mary Magdalene, Radio Times .. Heirloom roses NO LONGER sell them either. All of them are excellent for ALKALINE HEAVY CLAY ... nursery abandon old Austins, to add new ones. (cater to disease-resistant to compete with Kordes). The problem with Kordes or newer Austin: bred for disease-resistant, thus secrete LESS acid (nice for high-rain acidic areas like England), but NOT for heavy clay which needs ROOTS THAT SECRETE ACID to dissolve minerals for blooming.

The older Austin own-roots have aggressive and chunky roots like Dr.-Huey. The Prince does well for Brittie's black-gumbo clay in Texas, but 3 Lady Emma Hamilton died on her as own-root. Austin-OWN-ROOTS that are no longer sold have chunky & woody roots like Dr.Huey that can go through rock-hard clay. They are: Scepter'd Isle, Wise Portia, Radio Times, Mary Magdalene, and Christopher Marlowe (all bloom well like Romantica Bolero in alkaline clay). I wish I had bought Pegasus since I love yellow. High Country Roses used to offer own-root Austins like Evelyn, W.S. 2000, many others.

Evelyn with glossy foliage likes alkaline clay. I have lots of rain, but I would rather deal with blackspots than buying Kordes roses that are wimpy in heavy clay and died through my zone 5a winter like Deep Purple and Shocking Blue. Kordes Poseidon is loaded with blooms during any rain, but Savannah was stingy until I routed the rain spout and FLOODED that rose with acidic rain water (pH 4.5 here).

So interesting how roses do in different gardens that sound similar on paper. I have extremely heavy basic clay with intense rain (normally 45-50", but this year 60'+) and little snow, but it's been amended for so long (100yrs.) that the top layer is loamy and rich. When dry it is rock hard, but the roses seem to love it. I haven't had any wimpy Kordes; just the opposite, in fact. Two Summer Romance are huge.... too big for their allotment so I'm looking to move them. It's hard for me to find something else with a similar colour or fragrance, health and heavy bloom, so I'll just cut them down short next spring. Milano, Fire Opal, Bordeaux, Zaide, Florentina and Dark Desire are all vigorous growers, The wimpiest is First Crush, but I don't think it can compete with its neighboring Summer Romance. Only Dark Desire and possibly First Crush are grafted. Bolero is not nearly as robust and has not flourished in the same way, but I love it still.

My Austins are a mixed bag and those OR such as Pretty Jessica and Scepter'd Isle are too small to judge. Molineux remains rather small, but that could just be it's growth pattern.I'm expecting better from JayneAustin, The Prince and Teasing Georgia. The others are all grafted. Straw, you might check withFreedom Gardens for any older OR Austins as they carry a huge variety OR. Not as cheap as the old Chamblees, but their prices are no longer anyway. Shipping for 3 is a flat $20. Email if he doesn't list what you want. He will custom propagate for the same price.

The most vigorous other ORs have been Pink Pet, Chuckles, Chestnut Rose, Repeating Swamp Rose, The Fairy, Ballerina, Clotilde Soupert, Betty Prior, Gold Blush, Setina, Ghislaine de Feligonde and Ceske Praci Cest. The rest are holding their own so time will tell. I have high hopes based on early growth for Christian J and Jerabek's Peggy M. Many of these have only just gone in the ground after having lived in pots for 1-2 yrs. so I cant judge fairly.Cl, Pinkie continues to grow crazy since transplanting so no it's just a case of winter hardiness in her new spot. Of course, it probably goes without saying that New Dawn and Peggy Martin are strong growers OR.

Thank you, Vaporvac for your list of best performers as own-roots. Thank you for the link to Freedom Gardens for older Austin roses. I grew Scepter'd Isle as own-root (bought from Chamblee's) and it was EXTREMELY VIGOROUS & bloomed well, shot up to 4 feet in its 1st year. I gave it away since it took too much space, and the scent was like dirty-socks. In contrast, Charles Darwin refused to bloom. Charles has light green leaves, vs. DARK GREEN leaves of Scepter'd Isle. For my heavy clay, dark green leaves mean its roots can produce acid to consume minerals in hard-clay, versus pale-leaves means roots are wimpy and need fluffy soil, plus acidic rain to bloom.

As own-root, Golden Celebration has LIGHT GREEN leaves and refuses to bloom until I made the soil fluffy. It bloomed better in neutral pH potting soil and acidic rain than in my alkaline clay. It refused to bloom with my pH 9 tap-water. Golden Celebration as own-root finally gave 10 blooms per flush only after I made the soil fluffy (like potting soil), and USED ACIDIC RAIN-WATER from my 7 rain-barrels. Al in Chicagoland stated that his GRAFTED-Golden Celebration does better than his own-root Golden Cel.

Same with W.S. 2000: has pale-leaves as own-root. Very tiny in its 8th-years and blooms only if flooded with acidic rain water. Dark-green leaves like Perfume Delight, Intrigue bloomed lots in dinky pots at store, watered with alkaline-tap, but they are grafted on Dr. Huey. Own-root Stephen Big Purple has VERY DARK-GREEN leaves and bloomed well with my alkaline tap water, at pH 9, if SOLUBLE fertilizer is added.

Golden Celebration does the same thing here, in my alkaline clay. No blooms until a heavy rain, then buds appear as if by magic.

I've been wondering how both your SBP and Dee-lish are doing. It's great that FG has so many unusual roses that other places may carry, but are often OOStock. Scepter'd Isle must have the myrrh scent that some can't abide. I'm growing one from a small cutting and adore the fragrance!!! Noses are so different! : )) Thanks for the wonderful news that it's vigorous; it does seem to like blooming. Hopefully, Pretty Jessica will get on the program next next after she recuperates from being dug up by some animal. : ((

Vaporvac: Stephen Big Purple is doing well in its 8th-year, but one-cane wonder after my zone 5a winter, Dee-lish is most vigorous among my 128 varieties of own-root. Dee-lish is having 5 buds now at 44 F, down to 3 hrs. of sun in my zone 5a. I posted many pics. of both in Facebook group "Fragrant Rose Lovers", also in HMF, but NOT in Houzz (pics. rarely load).

Re-post the code for own-root roses that I summarized in 2016 in Organic Rose forum:

"Just went out to check all my leaves. Disease-resistant roses have 7-leafets like species or wild roses: Kordes Flower Carpet, Pat Austin and Tchaikovsky. Kordes Flower Carpet doesn't have mildew in acidic condition, but Knock-out (5-leaflet) has mildew .

Other DISEASE-RESISTANT with 7-leaflets, these don't black-spot even with tons of acidic rain: William Shakespeare 2000, Duchess de Rohan, Excellenz von Schubert, Annie L. McDowell, Blue Mist, Poseidon, Cloudert Soupert, and Crown Princess Mag. ... all have leaves in set of 7. These can take wet soil and acidic rain well, like multiflora-rootstock. Multiflora has 7 to 9 leaflet:

http://na.fs.fed.us/spfo/invasiveplants/factsheets/pdf/multiflora-rose.pdf

The drought-tolerant & disease-resistant Rugosa has rounder leaves in set of 7 to 9, plus very bristly canes full of thistles, see pic. below:

In contrast, black spot prone roses: Comte de Chambord and hybrid teas have leaves in set of 5, and much larger & round leaves. These prefer well-drained soil, and tend to blackspot in poor drainage clay and acidic rain.

My Scepter'd Isle is very vigorous as well, 1 year 5', I prune it down. Blooms all the time.

Pic. of my black-gumbo clay which cracks into large chunks when dry. Rose below is own-root Christopher Marlowe (older Austin) which likes my alkaline clay:

Christopher Marlowe above don't mind my cold zone 5a winter & blooms well in partial shade. But The Prince and Jude the Obscure are VERY WIMPY in cold zone, Niels in Denmark, zone 5b noted that The Prince is pathetic in his cold climate, but vigorous when he visited a warmer climate. I tried 4 Jude as own-root and gave up & too wimpy for my cold zone 5a. Lady Emma Hamilton died as own-root for a friend in zone 5a. Own-root Jude the Obscure and Lady Emma Hamilton also died through Kelly zone 4 winter.

Right rose website has good reviews on Austin roses: https://rightroses.com/jude-the-obscure

True, my Jude the Obscure is terrible, I only get 2-3 blooms a year. I need to remove him, he is own root as well.

I don't want to give up on Jude, but he's my third try, and even though he looks healthy, he doesn't bloom, so I ought to free up the space for a better rose. I keep remembering that fragrance from two years ago when he bloomed a few times and I couldn't help stopping and breathing in that heavenly perfume every time I passed by. Is there another rose with a similar fragrance?

While my Jude isnt own root, its still terrible here in Sydney, Australia. It's one of the spottest roses ive grown and by fall the leaves are gross and refuses to drop them, it just looks like someone has been throwing black paint at it.

Floweraremusic: Princesse Charlene de Monaco has great scent (similar to Jude). Jude is more guava-fruit, vs. pear-nectar for PCM. PCM is 7 feet tall now on Oct 9 as 1st-year own root (bought own-root from Regan in May). French Meilland roses like my heavy alkaline clay. I put too much gypsum (calcium sulfate) in PCM's planting hole last year which makes it so tall. One time I threw gypsum on Munstead Wood (in a pot) and it threw 3 feet long octopus canes. High potassium helps to control the growth & induce more blooming, but high-calcium grows more canes & taller roses.

Even Parsley herb grows twice taller & thicker stem if planted in hard clay mixed with limestone & other stones, and the flavor is better. But the parsley herb grown in fluffy potting soil is wimpy & much shorter and has harsh flavor. I'm buying a bag of pea-gravel (different color stones) to put AT BOTTOM of planting hole for roses that like alkaline, with dark-green & large and glossy leaves. My neighbor has a bunch of Sweet Drift roses (French Meilland shrub) .. they have glossy foliage since she put pea-gravel AT BOTTOM of planting hole, then compost on top. Drift roses are prone to fungal diseases, but hers are 100% clean, despite being planted in a flooded area.

Not sure if this info helps this thread or not? lol

Anyhow I live in Central Pa zone 6a...Soil is a combination of loam and soft clay...Very easy to dig planting holes... We get a average rainfall of 40 inches per year... This year was average but past 2-3 years we got way more rain than the average...Soil PH is 6.8

We have a high water table because we have springs underground below us...So that probably factors into things...

But anyways I have 3 roses that have done wonderful in my conditions...

All own root...All 4 years or older roses....

1. Double KO- looks good from Spring until Fall... Blooms heavy! Moderate grow rate here...

2. Carefree Celebration- looks good from Spring until Fall. Blooms heavy! Grows very fast here...

3. Miracle on the Hudson- looks good from Spring until Fall. Blooms heavy! Grows fairly fast here...

Fungus Disease wise I can not say this for any other rose I have grown so far...

NOW, I have had other own root roses that grew fast here but they got a high amount of fungus diseases so removed..

Own roots that I removed...But grew fairly fast...

Easy Does it rose, grew 2 different ones...Both grew fairly fast here but diseased very badly...removed!...

Living Easy rose- same as above...

Outta the Blue rose- same as above

Sunrise at Heirloom rose- same as above

Precious Platinum rose- same as above

Liebeszauber rose...same as above

Will add to above list later...

Earthsong rose- Grows very fast here...Blooms heavy! BUT gets a decent amount of disease starting early September... (Just this year)...past 3 years it only had very minor fungus disease.

Kordes roses I tried that have done very poorly here...

Plum Perfect- poor everything here...Big flop

Fiji - poor everything also...Big flop

Do not if this helps any or not...lol

Mister Lincoln is a stingy own root...Do grafted

Jim: I love hearing from you. Your honesty and humor always make me smile !! You make many people happy with your wonderful spirit. Looking back, I appreciate your company in Organic Rose in 2014. Too bad Sam NY came in and put so much stress in Organic Rose, his picking a fight with Bayer-spray group hurt me immensely. Sam NY picked a fight with many others & including me. So I left Houzz for years. Thanks to Floweraremusic informing me about certain questions being raised, I came back to answer them. I love your posts, Jim, please keep on posting. Having perfect roses IS NOT IMPORTANT, but the friendships and your "sunshine" personality is what it makes worth posting. Many thanks, Jim, for being my friend in Organic rose forum in 2014.

Thanks Straw! I agree!

Sam disappeared...That's the ugly past...Here is to a lot better present and future!

Strawchicago, I'm happy to hear that because I have 2 Princess Charlene plants and wouldn't mind having more. They are own root, new this year and growing and blooming at the same time. Very, very pleased with what I see so far and I love PCharlene's scent. I was never quite sure how to use gypsum - on top, at the bottom of the hole or mixed in.

Andrea: Acidic Gypsum is safest AT THE BOTTOM of the hole to loosen rocks below & help to convert rocks into available minerals for roots to use. Since I have chunks of hardened clay EVERYWHERE in the hole, I throw those chunks onto a garbage lid (face up), or into a bucket, and mix gypsum into those chunks. Within minutes, corrosive gypsum breaks up large chunk of clay into smaller particles. Earthworms are killed instantly with gypsum, same with roses' roots. For that reason I mix in gypsum 6 months in advance, so the rain can wash it down to CORRODE hard-chunks of clay, or rocks below. In spring I introduce new earthworms into my soil (made fluffy & broken down by gypsum).

If you have "free-lime" in your clay, such as lighter-color clay (gray or yellowish) that becomes chalky or like talc when dry, then you DON'T NEED GYPSUM. Peat-moss, acidic at pH 4, works well AT BOTTOM OF PLANTING hole to loosen rocks. Its acidity is neutralized by the high pH of rocks. Peat-moss at the bottom of the planting hole holds water well, but peatmoss at the top dries out & hardens and repels water. I made the mistake of mixing peatmoss into the hole of Sonia Rykiel, the acidity hurt its root immediately .. leaves turned pale. I had to dig up Sonia Rykiel and replace the soil. Grass clippings is very acidic. One guy in the Garden-forum topped his rock-hard clay with grass-clippings. After a few months of rain, the clay below the grass clippings become loamy & fluffy. That's the logic for alfalfa pellets on top in alkaline region.

To test for "free lime" or available calcium with red-cabbage-juice test: Pour the hot-red-cabbage juice into the soil sample, stir well, wait for 20 min. If the solution turns CLOUDY & WHITISH bluish, then I have "free" or "available" calcium. I have such brownish color clay, rich in calcium BELOW my black gumbo clay. Lavender Crush is grafted on Dr.Huey (a long stick), and I buried it deep into the calcium-rich layer below. It's over 7 feet now, compared to wimpy Veteran's Honor (only 6" root) that CANNOT reach down to the sub-clay below. Veteran's Honor root CANNOT produce acid like Dr.Huey-rootstock to break down rocks into available alkaline minerals like potassium, see pic. below:

The advantage of using peatmoss (organic matter) is organic matter releases potassium (bound in minerals) into usable form. Peat-moss increases soil moisture, versus gypsum makes my clay drier. Both are best AT BOTTOM OF PLANTING HOLE, or mixed in months in advance. Both are acidic and hurt roses' roots if in contact with roots.

Thank you, Strawchicago, for explaining gypsum, what it's for and how to use it. I will skip it since my soil indicates I don't need it.

And, thank you for coming back to answer questions and give us the benefit of your years of research and experiments with your roses. We are a somewhat smaller group now, all friends, and eager to grow the best roses we can. It is indeed good to see you here again.

Protoavis, maybe it's time for us both to toss Jude out and plant something beautiful in his place.

Flowers me too. Mine is dying, this summer was pretty bad. He wont bloom in part shade and full sun re is too much for him and he gets blackspot like mad. Only one cane left, I'm digging him out. I've never taken out healthy plants, but mine has a foot in the grave.

It dawns on me that wimpy rose like Jude is best grafted on a climber like Dr.Huey root-stock, same with wimpy Nahema (climber). Both are stingy as own-root. Nearby rose park (alkaline clay) had Jude grafted on Dr.Huey. There were at least 10 blooms per bush, with deep yellow and many petals in geometric circles (prettier blooms than Golden Cel.). People were taking close-up pics. of its blooms with many petals ... compare to my own-root Jude with tiny blooms, double-petals, and faded color. I'm glad that I bought Young Lycidas as grafted, I got large blooms and many petals immediately.

Yikes! i just planted Nahema own root. Forecast doesnt look good!! straw, since i'v already planted her, anything i can do to help her along?

My OR Nahema grown from a small cutting is really putting on some nice growth since going in the soil this summer. She's about as vigorous as most at this point, but less so compared to Gold Blush and Florentina. I've seen quite a few blooms for such a new rose with an amazing fragrance. I wish Cori Ann still posted.... if hers is wimpy, there's no hope for any of us! : D

Rekha: Own-root Nahema DOES NOT like my heavy dense clay. Nahema prefers LOAMY, FLUFFY soil plus high rain. Nahema's parent is Heritage. Heritage gives heavy clay folks a hard time, but Heritage is the best performer for foiks in sandy soil & high rain. Nahema has semi-glossy foliage, so it requires alkaline-minerals and DOES NOT like poor-drainage clay which turns sour from slow-draining rain water. That's how my Nahema died. It bloomed well in a dry spot (if we have day-long-rain). Then I moved it to soaking wet & poor drainage clay and it died through my zone 5a winter.

In HMF, Khalid posted the best pics. of Nahema growing in a pot from his hot Pakistan climate. He fertilizes with alkaline wood-ash and compost, and he mentioned that Nahema requires more water to bloom, and doesn't do well in high heat and drought. His Nahema in a pot does better than his friend's (growing Nahema super tall against a wall in the ground).

Nahema has thick canes & thick leaves, thus requires more alkaline minerals (calcium & potassium). It doesn't like being pruned short (by winter-kill), and climbers don't do well in my zone 5a, unless they are vigorous like Crown Princess Magareta. With my -20 degree winter, CPM dies down to less than a foot, but it sprouts cane quickly as own-root, Nahema can't do such, it grows very slow as own-root in cold zone. In rooting roses, my own-roots grow faster if I root them in full sun with constant misting. So for wimpy own-roots, they grow better in full-sun.

Well I guess Heritage helps explain her fantastic fragrance. I had never look that up on her or I guess I forgot. I'm smelling her as I type. Did you replace your Naima straw? Why did you move it if it was doing well?

Vaporvac: Nahema was stingy in my heavy clay & dry spot, so I moved it to a wet spot, then it died in my zone 5a winter. I don't have the full-sun for Nahema. Jay-Jay in the Netherlands, zone 6, told me that Nahema blooms best in full-sun.

I can see how that would be the case especially in our zones and latitudes. I am finding the even roses that are noted for being shade tolerant prefer sun in my yard. Ballerina is one exception as is pink pet, gdf and Chuckles. M Marie paviei also take shade to a degree.

For Floweraremusic (Andrea): After weeks of rain, I checked where I mix hard clay with peat moss, they finally blend together in a crumbly & moist texture (like chocolate cake). When I checked on rooting roses: both University Extension and others report the best rooting for plants is 1/2 peat moss and 1/2 sand. Sand is actually alkaline so that neutralize the acidity of peat moss (pH 4). Years ago when I mixed coarse sand in for my rooting .. the soil became denser due to sand's alkalinity, and I had to make crumbly with acidic gypsum. So 1/2 coarse sand plus 1/2 peat moss is perfect to fix our rock-hard alkaline clay. 6th-year own root Dee-lish below was fixed with a bag of coarse sand for my rock hard clay:

For Austin own-root roses: they are water-hog and like it slightly acidic, I fixed my soil with peat moss (pH 4) for my dense & hard clay at pH 7.7. Austin roses like it soaking wet so peat moss helps with more blooms in my garden, see below Mary Magdalene, planted in clay mixed with peat moss. It's under a roof-overhang that blocks out rain-water, but the peat moss mixed with clay keeps it healthy for the past 10 years as own-root.

Straw, can you please recommend three or four roses for fellow chicagoan with alkaline clay soil in zone 5B? I'm on a learning curve, but have had William Baffin doing well for many years, also John Davis doing well. Also have Carefree Beauty but it is getting too much shade. Not impressed with Knockouts I've tried in the past and trying some rugosa hybrids now including Therese Bugnet, purple pavement, and dwarf pavement. Would love to find two or three shrub roses that would not require a Ph.D to keep happy. I like pinks. Thank you.

Nancy: how dense is your clay? Mine sticks together in large clump the size of lemons and grapefruit. Impossible to dig when dry, so I only dig after it rains. For rock-hard clay like mine or Floweraremusic (she's in zone 5 Washington) .. the Romanticas or French Meilland are best as own-roots: Bolero, Dee-lish, Princesse Charlene de Monaco, Peter Mayle, Sweet Mademoiselle. Also VIGOROUS Austin roses such as Evelyn, Pat Austin, or any Austin roses with LARGE & glossy or dark-green foliage (A Shopshire Lad). Orchid Romance is not an Austin rose but also vigorous with its LARGE & GLOSSY leaves (but I like Evelyn 10 times better).

If your clay is loamy and don't stick together in clumps, then see Paul Redfern's list of best own-roots in the thread "Best and worst own roots". Paul has a Ph.D. in physical chemistry and growing roses is challenging for him too !! Paul lives less than 1/2 away from me and his alkaline clay soil is less dense & heavy. See below link for his list:

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5956983/best-and-worst-own-root-roses-in-your-soil-and-climate#n=32

Hard alkaline clay, dry climate.

I noticed today, during this heat wave (90's+F) that the roses not suffering with wilting or smaller blooms or crisp petal edges are my red roses, from various breeders. Munstead Wood, WS2000, Tess of the d'Urbervilles, Rouge Royale, Florentina, Dortmund and Ivor's Rose don't mind the heat. Also, Darcy Bussell, but she's grafted.

Upthread, 9 months ago, I was ready to toss Jude in the trash. I'm happy to report that with a good helping of compost, manure, rose food and copious amounts of water, he's blooming better than he has in the 5 - 6 years I've had him, even in this heat.

Andrea (floweraremusic): Below is an excellent link that explains the problems in alkaline clay, pH level, and how sand helps to speed up drainage:

https://landscapeforlife.org/soil/how-to-determine-soil-type/

Excerpts from above link: "The availability of phosphorus, iron, copper, zinc and manganese is reduced in slightly to moderately alkaline soil (pH 7 to 8). in very alkaline soils, the levels of calcium and magnesium are so high that they impede the availability of phosphorus. In strongly acidic soils (pH 5.5 to 4), important nutrients such as phosphorus, potassium, calcium and magnesium are in short supply."

Straw - your Dee-Lish blooms are gorgeous!!! As to Austins...they don't do well for me. I have two Austins left from all of the ones I've tried....Charles Darwin (new last year) and Bishop's Castle (had for about 5 years). We had hail AGAIN and both of them have their canes to the bottom of the pot. Austins are the only ones that this happens to. I'm never buying another Austin. I give up on them. Sheesh! :)

Flowers - good going on fixing the problems with JtO...the fragrance alone is worth the effort...mmmm!!! Of course, mine died years ago.

Carol, I feel a sense of accomplishment getting Jude to perk up. He's my 3rd try. Lost the other two out of ignorance, but following Straw's and Kahlid's advice to practically drown him have turned the tide along with a good feeding regimen. He's worth any extra trouble to keep him happy. I wish you still had yours. I'm sorry Austins have done so poorly for you, but you're ahead of the game by identifying the ones that work and those that don't.

Straw, thank you for your lists -- I save them for winter's reading & ordering. I appreciate that you take the time to give your growing conditions as well as if the plant was own root or grafted.

Re-post what Lavenderlace gave in Organic Rose growing. I really miss her kindness and generosity in sharing about her 100+ own root roses:

"lavenderlacezone8 3 years ago

Straw, if I only mentioned sandy soil, that doesn't mean that they won't grow in clay, just that I haven't tried it yet.

New Dawn- clay, sand, gravel, caliche, shade, full sun, tough as nails with horrible thorns.
New Zealand, only tried sandy soil

Neptune, only tried sandy soil, full sun, changed to afternoon shade when it got hotter

Jude the Obscure, shade, full sun, and no direct sun, sand and clay, much better in sand and extremely vigorous, leaves can be quite light here and prone to bs

Sharifa Asma, sandy soil, regular water

Ebb Tide, afternoon shade, sandy soil, extremely vigorous, tons of blooms

Evelyn, only tried sandy soil, full sun

Frederic Mistral, only tried sandy soil, full sun

Fragrant Plum, only tried sandy soil, afternoon shade

Memorial Day, sandy soil and clay, full sun doesn’t like to be too wet Here, MD wilts with too much water but produces huge blooms with comparatively less water.

Tiffany, only tried sandy soil

Parole (Buxom Beauty), only tried sandy soil

Amazing Grace, sandy soil, quite vigorous. lots of big blooms. Some afternoon shade, some morning shade.

Lemon Spice, sandy soil and clay, doesn’t like too much water & does great in the heat. Midnight Blue, only tried sandy & hot pink to blackish purple.

Heritage, fine in both clay and sand, though started out
slower in clay. Evergreen here. Full sun all the way to complete shade. Fragrance isn’t as great as reported here, as of yet, and blooms blow fast & very tall.

Savannah, great in sandy soil, horrible for me in clay, doesn’t seem to need a lot of water, even in sand.

Grande Dame, very vigorous in sandy soil (only tried)

Twice in a Blue Moon, delightful fragrance, even in high heat, wafts in vase. only tried in sandy soil, some full sun and some afternoon shade.

Lagerfeld, only tried in sandy soil, some full sun, some afternoon shade

Madame Isaac Pereire, this one is in a super fluffy composted alfalfa and coarse sand mix.
Reine des Violettes, only tried in sandy soil

Violet's Pride, only tried in sandy soil, drops leaves with too much
water, very vigorous, lots of blooms.

Earth Angel, only tried in sandy soil, fine in shade,

First Crush, clay and sandy soil, both fine, shade and full sun, and afternoon shade

Beverly, only tried in sandy soil, full sun

Magnificent Perfume, only tried in sandy soil

Charles de Gualle- hates my sandy pots, needs watering twice a day because it's too fast draining, candidate for clay?

Love Potion, blackspotted horribly in sandy soil, couldn't keep it wet enough, now watering twice a day and keeping extremely wet, covered in blooms. Candidate for clay?

Hope this helps somewhat!" Lavenderlace, zone 8 in hot Texas with both sandy and clay soil.

noseometer...(7A, SZ10, Albuquerque) 3 years ago

"I grow in dry alkaline sand. I'm going to have to get some pine chips. Best performers are Bishop's Castle, Alnwick Castle, and Abraham Darby." noseometer...(7A, SZ10, Albuquerque)

From StrawChicago: These Austin are the favorites of those in alkaline soil, I list them in order of MOST to least drought tolerant as own roots:

Wild Eric (Rugosa heritage & sandy & dry & alkaline), William Morris (Khalid's most vigorous own-root in hot Pakistan & alkaline & dry & sandy soil), Bishop's Castle & The Prince (heat & alkaline), The Dark-Lady (Rugosa heritage & loamy soil & drought-tolerant), Munstead Wood (loamy/dry/alkaline, take shade), St. Cecilia (loamy to sand), Carding Mill (heat & alkaline & loamy soil), Evelyn (heat & alkaline), Tamora (heat & loamy & alkaline), Christopher Marlowe (heat, alkaline, loamy soil), The Endeavor & Mary Magdalene & Radio Times (heat & alkaline), Darcy Bussell (alkaline), Sharifa Asma (Rugosa heritage & wet sand or loamy, take shade), Tess of the d'Urberville (wet & alkaline), Crown Princess Magareta (wet & alkaline but needs high potassium SOLUBLE fertilizer to bloom). Pat Austin (wet & alkaline & take shade), Wise Portia ( wet & alkaline & partial shade like Pat Austin), Heritage (wet loamy/sandy soil with acidic rain), Jude the Obscure (low-thorn wimpy own-root needs alkaline & wet & loamy or sand).

*Warning- Long! Skip if you're not interested!*

I've taken the time recently to read through this and I'm so glad I did. It's fascinating! So far I haven't seen anyone with my conditions so I thought I'd join the discussion.

I live southwest of Knoxville TN on a small hill that's on the side of a bigger hill. You can see the Smokies from a treeless area. Our soil is dry, thin, rocky and lacking in organic matter. Our topsoil exists at all because we've worked hard for a long time on building it. Soil is off the charts acidic. In summer and fall a shovel is useless in unimproved soil and we have to dig with a pick. We do have excellent drainage. I can grow quite a few plants native to much drier areas even though my rainfall averages about 50 inches a year. Summer droughts are frequent and I need to water. Winters are cold and wet with very little snow most years. Spring is a roller coaster. We may have 2 wks. of 80 degrees and then a freeze in the 20's. I've lost roses and other plants during this time, even natives. Summers are long, hot and humid. We average about 35 days a summer over 90 degrees. This year we will exceed that, I think. Falls start out less humid, clear and rainless with warm days and cool nights but change to rainy and cold with frost in November, usually. Our growing season is long and fall is a great time to transplant.

My roses are own root. It seems that grafted roses are short-lived for me. Also, I don't spray.

So here's what works:

Anything with multiflora ancestry- Multiflora rose is a noxious weed here and a vector for RRV but also tough and adaptable to the problems in this area. Getting rid of it is akin to dealing with bermuda grass."Tame" roses (roses bred for gardens) with multiflora ancestry that retain some of its characteristics grow well here. These include most polyanthas, many hybrid musks and some of the old ramblers. There are some surprises. Many purple roses go back to some of the old purple multiflora ramblers and retain some of their traits. I can grow them too. For example, Munstead Wood is the only Austin I can grow.

Teas- Not the hybrid tea body bag specials, catalogue centerfolds or the fancy florist kind but the shrub-sized, vase-shaped, graceful, color shifters from yesteryear that grow in warm climates. They rarely suffer from fungal diseases and seem truly happy when temps and humidity hit 90 deg/90 %. They effortlessly handle the lousy soil and adapt to drought. They are often semi-evergreen and start growing again when we have our first warm weather only to suffer when a freeze follows. That's when I lose teas.

Noisettes- These were born to grow here. If you have the room and you're warm enough, it's one of the most beautiful for climbers.

China roses- They can grow if they're happy. They want just the right amount of water and sun and will sulk if they don't get it. Mine want only morning sun. They don't mind heat but hate cold damp weather. They will blackspot if stressed. In spite of this, they are tough and will come back from nearly being dead to grow and bloom again. They are hardier than teas.

Maybe they'll do well:

Bourbons- These are a mixed bag. I can grow anything from the SdlM family. Except for these, the rest tend to blackspot especially when stressed but many can shrug it off and do well.

Old-fashioned hardy once-bloomers such as damask, albas, gallicas, etc.- For many of these we just don't have a long enough winter every year. We will either get a short blooming season or none. What makes them valuable is that they can coexist with big deciduous trees and still bloom with seasonal sun only. They are often tough and forgiving. This is my ongoing experiment.

Floribundas- a mixed bag. Many fail but some have done surprisingly well.

Shrubs- Of all the moderns, I am more likely to succeed with one from this class than any other.

Minis- See floribundas.

Kordes and other ADRs from EU- These are also a mixed bag. Cream Veranda is one of the easiest healthiest roses I grow. Others, Plum Perfect for example, can take years to grow and bloom well, almost like some of the old-fashioned once-blooming climbers.

What doesn't do well:

Hybrid perpetuals, hybrid teas, Austins- As a rule, they are unsuccessful here.

Hybrid giganteas- As a rule they can't take even a mild winter.

Exceptions:

Found roses- Since they come from any of the above classes, you'd think the success rate would be all over the map. As a rule they do well for me as long as they are able to grow in my zone. They are usually very forgiving, tolerant and adaptable. If you're a gambler that likes to win more than lose, this is a good place to choose a rose.

I hope my experience helps someone. There's no need to reinvent the wheel. If you struggle with the same growing conditions that I do, try something that is successful for me. I'll bet that it will work for you, too.

Kes Z: Thank you for the excellent info. you gave. I agree that China rose black spot if stressed. I have Gruss an Teplitz (hybrid china) & also the parent of Dr.Huey-rootstock.

Agree that polyantha like Marie Pavie and hybrid musk like Cornelia like acidic rain. I have Cornelia in a poor-drainage & acidic spot and it thrives.

Someone once said that Austin roses like dolomitic clay (high in calcium and magnesium). Austin roses do well in my high-magnesium & sticky alkaline clay and I'm next to a limestone quarry. My well-water is at pH 9. I don't spray. Re-post info. given by Tammy in acidic red clay, TN. She grows 852 varieties of roses in zone 7a:

TNY78(7a-East TN)

"I also have slightly acidic soil, although it is heavy clay as well. I'm on the 6b/7a line. I can tell you which of my own-root Austins don't do well own root here: Strawberry Hill, Leander, Geoff Hamilton, & Cordelia. If you're moving into slightly acidic soil, you may also look at getting some Austins grafted onto multiflora (Palatine & Hortico). My grafted ones seem to do very well compared to my own root ones...and I'm normally a fan of own root." Tammy in acidic red clay

http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=3.22865&tab=2

Below thread Carol (rosecanadian) did a fantastic documentation of which of her roses (grafted-on-multiflora) have glossy leaves versus the ones with matte leaves.

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5950727/tell-me-a-story-2#n=89

Re-post my answer to Carol below, yes, info. about leaves also apply to grafted-roses:

"Info. about leaves (glossy leaves need more alkaline minerals & more water), matte leaves need less minerals & less water, large leaves like heavy soil like clay, light-green leaves like acidic rain, dark-green leaves like alkaline pH (need lime), tiny leaves prefer loamy & sandy soil, low-thorn roses are waterhog, thorny roses are drought-tolerant .... THESE ALSO APPLY TO GRAFTED-ROSES." StrawChicago.

Straw, thank you for replying. I have much to investigate here. When I asked the question, I was thinking about conditions as they are if I dig in a shrub bed to plant a new shrub. This is what I find: eight or nine inches of heavy dark brown clay that mostly sticks together in large clumps. Some of it will fall apart into smaller pieces. Then I hit a yellowish clay that is much harder and more like what you call Rocks. There are other sections of the yard that have been long-standing flower beds and the soil is much better in them, probably what you call loamy clay. There is nothing sandy anywhere.

By the way, I have seen Mary Rose recommended as an Austin rose that is good for Chicago. Do you have any comments on that one?

Have you done a percolator test for drainage yet?

Nancy: Your garden is similar to mine: Top 1 1/2 foot is BLACK GUMBO clay that sticks to large clump (the size of grapefruit), bottom is VERY HARD yellowish clay mixed with yellowish limestone rocks (size of grapes to lemons). I'm northwest of Chicago.

Mary rose is VERY WIMPY as own-root, best as grafted on Dr.Huey. A friend in alkaline clay California stated that Mary rose grew backwards (shrank) on her as own-root. Even folks in fluffy soil & warm Pakistan DO NOT GROW Mary rose as own-root, and they can't root that one either.

My last house in Glen Ellyn had soft acidic clay and blue hydrangea, and roses-grafted on Dr.Huey were black spot fest. My current house in N. Aurora with rock hard alkaline clay, roses are much healthier, but it's a pain to dig past 2 feet for Dr.Huey-rootstock. So whatever own roots recommended in this thread for alkaline clay is best, but NOT Mary rose.

Straw, these are very interesting theories that are new to me. I will have to pay closer attention to leaves, soil, etc in the future. I live in the far north suburb of Chicago with alkaline black clay, very similar to your soil situation, but I haven’t accumulated enough rose experience, nor do I have as many roses, to draw any conclusion. Thank you for sharing your experience.

claire

@strawchicago z5 Wow. So much detailed observation and research! You really know your rose and soil! This is like an advanced course on rose and thank you for sharing!

My Leander bought as own-root might not make it through this harsh zone 5a winter (it was 20 F in March with tons of freezing rain). Leander was wimpy in a pot despite my keeping the pH alkaline, plus extra holes for fast drainage. I planted Leander deep in my alkaline clay before winter, and roots were whitish like alfalfa sprouts, zero chance of winter survival.

Re-post info. given years ago by Tammy in acidic red clay, TN. She grows 852 varieties of roses in zone 7a:

TNY78(7a-East TN) wrote: "I also have slightly acidic soil, although it is heavy clay as well. I'm on the 6b/7a line. I can tell you which of my own-root Austins don't do well own root here: Strawberry Hill, Leander, Geoff Hamilton, & Cordelia. If you're moving into slightly acidic soil, you may also look at getting some Austins grafted onto multiflora (Palatine & Hortico). My grafted ones seem to do very well compared to my own root ones...and I'm normally a fan of own root." Tammy in red clay, East TN.

http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=3.22865&tab=2

That's too bad about your Leander. It has such beautiful blooms.

loam

Roses are extremely adaptable and can be grown in almost any soil type as long as it is well drained, deep, and humus-rich (decayed organic matter). The best soils, however, are those with a medium to heavy loam to a depth of 35cm over a good clay subsoil.

lizzieswellness I have been growing roses for 30 years (I'm 60) and I have been rooting roses for a decade. I grow 150+ varieties of OWN ROOT roses.

What you wrote fit GRAFTED roses that are grafted on ONE PARTICULAR ROOTSTOCK, but DOES NOT APPLY to own-root roses which are vastly different from each other. Like Bayes Blueberry is a long rope root, or shallow cluster-root of Baby Fauraux, or thick & woody & chunky root (like a tree) of French Romantica roses.

I dug up plenty of dead own-root roses that don't survive my zone 5a winter at -20 F below zero. And their roots are DIFFERENT from each other, just google "StrawChicago and HMF" and you'll see I posted plenty of pics. of roots of roses:

Even grafted roses are different from each other (Fortuniana, Multiflora, Dr.Huey). Below is multiflora rootstock (pic. from internet):

Below is Dr.Huey rootstock, dug up from my garden of rock hard clay:

Below is a pic. of own root rose that a friend sent to me. NO WAY that such a tiny own root can handle rock hard clay.

One size DOES NOT fit all when it comes to own-root roses.