Given your very strong reasons for wanting to avoid heat pumps, why are you even considering them?

Why not just use a propane boiler radiant heat system?

What is your electric cost/KWH?

TD

Well, I guess because I have never lived in a home with them - maybe the noise isn't so bad, for instance, as I fear? And cost: propane is very expensive here now. And I also feel badly continuing to use fossil fuels when there are options. I'm hoping to hear from people who've perhaps had similar concerns and see if anyone has any input :)

I agree with the OP. I considered a ground-sourced heat pump but, to keep the system simple and save up-front expenses, opted for an electric boiler with in-floor radiant heat. Added solar to be more "green". I am still considering adding an air-sourced heat pump, primarily for cooling, but perhaps with the benefit of using less electricity. I live in Northern NY.

@tigerdunes I'm not sure- how do I find that out?

Also- we are planning to add solar in the future, but not this year.

@tigerdunes I found it on my electric bill, duh! "The average price per KWH for your standard offer electricity is $0.064494"

Well, I guess because I have never lived in a home with them - maybe the noise isn't so bad, for instance, as I fear? And cost: propane is very expensive here now. And I also feel badly continuing to use fossil fuels when there are options.

You will be using fossil fuels, regardless of whether the heating source is propane or electric (unless you have on-site solar or your electric provider uses 100% renewable resources).

Your issues with heat pumps are...

- Don't like hot air blowing around - There is no way around this.

- Don't like the wall-mounted units - There is no way around this with mini-split systems.

- Don't want ducts due to serious dust and mildew allergies - There is no way around this with traditional heat pump systems.

- Don't like the noise - This can be minimized with proper design/installation, though it won't be silent.

You say you're going to get solar sometime soon. Use whatever system you like (electric baseboard is cheap and very controllable) and generate enough electricity to power it in the future. There's no worry about using fossil fuels if you don't buy electricity.

@booty bums Thank you. There is a way around the bulky high wall-mount units, using some of the newer low panel units that basically look like European radiators, or wall vents... but the other issues do remain. Your feedback is helpful, especially regarding the allergy issues. Thanks!

@mtvhike Did you install an ERV or HRV? I'm really confused about whether that is necessary with every tightly built new home. Again- trying to avoid ducts.

Stacey - I don't know the difference. I think it's a Heat Recovery Ventilation system, in that heat is transferred between the inside circuit and the outside circuit and vice versa. I hardly know it's there in terms of noise, but there are ducts running through my basement ceiling (only one main floor). Not part of the heating system (no cooling at present).

I am in a similar climate (northern NE). I have a new home. It's 100% solar, high efficiency, super tight. I have a mini-split and a CERV. I have no power bill except the meter (base service charge), even though our winters go to -20F.

I don't recognize several of the items on your list of cons.

• my home is pretty much hypoallergenic. The CERV has 2 filters in it. One is a MERV 13 (which also mitigates viral particles, e.g. COVID); it removes particles of everything, dust, bathroom, cooking.... I always have CLEAN air.
• the CERV actively removes aroma; I have an extra filter to enhance this
• using sustainable construction materials with minimal off-gassing facilitates the no-allergy setup; mine were carefully selected with this inn mind
• the CERV handles a base layer of the heating or cooling; the heat pump lets me fine tune, but doesn't handle ALL the thermal energy
• -the CERV has ducts, but not the mini-split
• -the mini-split has an "eye" on it that follows me around and focuses the correct temperature on me; this is an energy-saving device; it would be counterproductive to disguise the unit or put it near the floor
• air doesn't blow around
• I am not conscious of noises (my heat pump-linked water heater, however, is another story)
• Radiant heat might be nice, but there may be equivalent ways to get what you want. I have cork flooring in the bathroom, entry, and utility; I have birch everywhere else. This is the first time in my life I've been able to wander around in bare feet. The floors are not cold. There is no draft in the house. There are no gaps in the floorboards. The floors are insulated. No cold feet.....(Note that I don't have tile, thank gosh.)
• I could probably have had radiant floor heat if I wanted, since my house isn't on a slab.

Also, you might check with your state and local electric power company; all these items may be on incentives lists, which can save you quite a bit. You may also be able to get incentives if they are installed at the same time as solar (or even if maybe you buy into community solar). This might take a little research, but after you calculate in the incentives and power savings, it might be more cost effective to do solar now. I'm not sure if Maine is like that.

@Stacey Collins Did you install an ERV or HRV? I'm really confused about whether that is necessary with every tightly built new home. Again- trying to avoid ducts.

I can't imagine having a tight house without an air exchanger of some kind. You will feel like you're suffocating! My CERV went down for a week or so, so I KNOW!

I have a ducted mini that is silent. I mean we can argue that there is noise but pipes makes noise too. It is "ear to the register" silent. The outdoor unit is "stand next to it and feel the air blowing on your leg to know it is on" silent. Although, I don't live in a rural environment.

Blowing around - that is really a design issue. Air movement at slow speeds is helpful for temperature stratification. Not blowing hard on you like a fan but some air movement is fine.

An honest question about dust and mildew allergies. When systems pull in air, they filter it and then move it out. The filter catches dust of course. I can assure you that a duct does not create dust. Humans create dust. Ah - but they circulate it - as they clean it. Ducts do collect construction dust if poorly managed - might make sure that doesn't happen.

Get a good media filter.

Mildew is about controlling humidity - which guess what? - requires air movement.

Skip carpets, HEPA media filter, and install air conditioning.

The heat pump will also give you cooling in summer, unlike radiant floor heat. In northern NE this didn’t used to be a necessity, but global warming.....

IMO cool indoor air is much easier on the allergies than being outside.

(Not to be misleading, I have a CERV as well as a heat pump in my house. The CERV has a basic cooling and heating function.)

If you put mini splits low on a wall, any furniture will impede the function. IMO

Hi, Stacey,

Heating/ventilating and air conditioning systems for tightly-built, well-insulated homes need to be carefully designed to ensure occupant comfort and health. I suggest you check with HERS raters and HVAC contractors in your area to find someone with the requisite expertise. Ideally, one or more will have experience with similar homes that is transferable to yours.

Before you dismiss radiant heat, have a look at the article in the link which describes alternatives considered for a cold climate:

https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/heating-a-superinsulated-house-in-a-cold-climate

Keep in mind, that the home in the article was super-insulated, and the load calculations for your home may suggest a different alternative.

I am in a similar climate (northern NE). 100% solar. I have no power bill, even though our winters go to -20F.

You produce enough solar, in a northern New England location, to heat your home during -20F winters, without using any outside power?

How much solar do you have? How do you store the energy?

How much energy do you consume to overcome an 80 degree temperature differential in the winter?

How much energy do you capture on short winter days, especially when the panels are covered in 3' of snow?

OP Stacy Collins:

“Originally we really wanted radiant floor heat, but it seems that the tech for the air-to-water transfer from a heat pump isn't quite there yet…”

This is false. You’re probably being told this because those that say that are not up to speed on the latest technologies.

“1) We vastly prefer radiant heat to hot air blowing around.

2) Aesthetics - I definitely don't want the high wall-mounted units. Possible the low wall "floor units" or something ducted, but I am not a fan of ducts with my serious dust and mildew allergies.

3) Noise - everything I read says these systems are pretty loud.

Any ideas?”

Everything that you’re looking for technically, is available with Cold Climate Air-To-Water Heat Pumps. Only 1-HP unit is required to have any kind of hydronic radiant heating and hydronic air-conditioning as well as domestic hot water (DHW) including instantaneous DHW should you want that too.

As a bonus, these systems offer the quietest, easiest, most effective means of zoning for both heating & air-conditioning as well as the most energy efficient method of distribution.

Installation will come at a premium but it’s not geothermal, although the operating savings will be close to geothermal.

Designing an energy efficient envelope will bring the installation cost down. With your electrical cost per kW I personally would not for go the solar and put the savings into the envelope with hydronic air-to-water HP, although ‘tangerinedoor’ does seem to have a most interesting configuration.

You can explore this link for more info on this subject:

Nordic Air-To-Water Heat Pumps

IMPO

SR

For those contemplating solar. One's solar pv system does not have to provide all of the electrical needs of a house on any given day, and it's still possible to have no bill for electrical usage. Here in snowy upstate NY (other areas may differ), your panels need only generate enough electricity on average to equal your house's needs for the year. Some days your panels generate more than you need and the power goes back to the grid, while your electric meter runs in reverse. When your panels are covered in snow and at night, your meter starts running the other way. Our utility allows us to average for one year, then the cycle starts again.

@booty bums See here to respond to the questions you bring up.

@Seabornman That's exactly true here, too (another NE state) on the solar. Just so folks who aren't familiar understand how this works. It's called "net metering". I live in one of the darkest states in the country, but the sunnier months produce excess electricity. This goes on the grid, and I get credits for it that I use in the winter. As I mentioned, I have NO heat bill. I actually have no electric bill year round. My house is all-electric.

This also means the electric company doesn't have to buy (expensive) electricity; instead, it can use the excess electricity coming from folks' solar panels. This keeps prices down for everyone on the grid.

IMO Most anyone with a home would want to check to see if there's net metering in their state. You might pay off solar panels way faster than you think. For instance, are you paying $500/month for heating or cooling as many people do around here?

Also, if you can't do solar panels (maybe your house is in the shade), in some states there's community solar. You buy into it. The panels around here are in old meadows and landfills, generally out of sight.

I'm guessing excess energy from any alternative source could be uploaded to the grid. I had thought of using a windmill in winter! But I'm not sure how my electric company handles this.

IMO every state should have the net metering option or get them legislated ASAP. Soon solar (or another alternative energy source) will be essential for selling a house.

******

Incidentally, my state also audits the "tightness" in your home. There are extra incentives that go along with this.

*****

Footnote: while the netZero set up in my home might sound complex, it's actually very simple. Just clever. Basically: 10" thick walls, energy-saving materials like double-paned windows, solar, shed roof, CERV, heat pump. Habitat for Humanity is building houses like this around here; it is LESS EXPENSIVE than what they otherwise build.

I feel like I hijacked the post. Apologies. Some of these concepts are new to everyone, so I think they're worth presenting. Alternative energies are here now, not a vague future.

Back to the OP, @Stacey Collins. Are we getting your questions answered? It sounds like you can get what you want as far as radiant heat, but are encouraged to look comprehensively at the whole energy/air package for your home.

It's called "net metering". I live in one of the darkest states in the country, but the sunnier months produce excess electricity. This goes on the grid, and I get credits for it that I use in the winter. As I mentioned, I have NO heat bill. I actually have no electric bill year round. My house is all-electric.

I completely understand the concept of net metering.

I'm curious about your particular setup, which allows you to produce so much excess electricity in "one of the darkest states in the country" during just a few "sunnier months" that covers all of the electricity used the rest of the year in -20F weather.

How much energy do you produce during these "sunnier months" and how much do you consume? How much do you generate during the non-sunny months and how much do you consume? What is the size of your solar setup?

@booty bums

• You have to understand that my house is built super-tight, per my state's audit. No drafts or gaps. Then, the walls are 10" thick. So, the construction method contributes a lot to low energy usage.
• The winter when I first moved in—so I had no electric credits racked up—my biggest monthly bill was $165. I was not stingy: I used whatever kept me comfortable. That was a FRIGID winter. This reflects construction techniques and equipment choices, including appliances and air exchanger.
• That year, starting in March, I was generating more than I needed. This year, March was greyer, but I generated almost enough.
• This month so far, April, I have generated 616 kWh and consumed about 342 kWh. It's been a mellow month.
• I don't have an electric car, so I don't need re-charging capacity
• My array is 7kWh.
• My netZero experience is typical for all the houses constructed by my builder, from million-dollar homes to Habitat for Humanity.

I hope those are the details you were looking for.

Let me make clear that my electric usage is net-metered, but I still have to pay a base monthly fee (usually around $16) for the metering.

The important message I want to convey is that everything about my house was designed for energy savings. Every detail matters. It is not a solar array added to an old house, or purchase of a heat pump, or using Energy Star appliances. It's ALL of that, and it was conceived of together. In my state, it's also incentivized all combined. (You can even get an incentive if you tear down an old mobile home to build one of these; the State doesn't want old mobile homes because they gobble up power relative to their size and value.)

Gotta get to the garden and use my incentivized electric mower.....

I know about HRVs and ERVs. But what is a CERV???

The CERV is supposed to activate ventilation based on detection of various VOC's and CO2.

We have a 12kWh solar system in CA, but the net metering is rigged in favor of the electric companies. We were forced to get a new meter with the panels and and it read very different than our old one, and no surprise, it favored the electric company! At that time we were also not allowed to have battery back-up for times when the power went out. So much for using less resources. The last thing the power companies want, at least in the LA area, is for people to be self sufficient when it comes to power usage.

@worthy

I know about HRVs and ERVs. But what is a CERV???

The CERV is my air exchanger. It keeps the air in my house fresh and clean. It brings air in from outside and exhausts out as well. Responds to VOC's and temperature fluctuations. Pulls out dust and viral particles. It incorporates a heat pump (though this is less nimble than my mini-split). It removes aromas (it even sucks up aroma in my bathroom!).

If I had an emergency during COVID and needed a work person in the house (I had a window break), all I had to do was manually boost the CERV to clear out all the air when that person was gone. The CERV can remove viral particles.

The CERV even has wireless settings that can be tested and adjusted remotely by the manufacturer or my builder.

One of the best "feels" is the evenness of the air quality and temperature in my house. There are no sudden blasts or drafts. Every room sounds the same and has the same feel. I can breathe!

Stacey - this house has radiant heat.....older MCM and its in the ceilings. It's comfortable. Love the house, but I find I have to dust - and I rarely did with former home that had electric back up furnace, heat pump. It had a whole house honeywell air cleaner attached. The filters were cleaned in the dishwasher, so simple. This is a mild climate both winter and summer so I don't know how monthly costs would compare, but if I could have brought one thing with me - it would have been the heat pump with air cleaner. I never had cooking smells before either and do notice them when walking into the kitchen the morning following preparing something with a long cook time especially if it includes lots of garlic ;0)

Forced air ducting lets you use an air cleaner -- and a humidifier to keep your home comfortable in winter. Warm floors are nice, but heat alone is too dry. Of course, ducting also permits cooling.

We have hydronic underfloor in three north facing rooms and a two-stage forced air furnace -- with flow-through (no mold) humidifier and an Aprilaire filter.

Be sure your hardwood flooring is installed so it won't buckle with underfloor heat.