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mike_t73

Check out my Kitchen Plan! Help with my analysis paralysis.

Mike T.
3 years ago
last modified: 3 years ago

Good morning,

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I've been pouring over the ideas and threads here as I build our kitchen remodel.

We bought this house in June knowing the kitchen would need to be remodeled, but , inline with the advice written here, we lived in the kitchen in order to get ideas for how we would change it. The house and kitchen are 15 years old and the cabinets were (extremely poorly) restained to the dark color, as you can see in the photo below.

I'm not sure how much detail to put in my first post, so I'll stick with some highlights.

- To keep the project manageable, we are keeping the appliances in the same basic locations.

- We are changing the the electric cooktop to gas since we much prefer cooking with gas over electric.

- The oven will be a double wall oven, with the Ikea cabinet modified to fit the ovens.

- We have 2 younger kids and lots of kids in the neighborhood, so having the microwave and snacks and drinks easily accessible is high on the list.

- Storage is a priority (isn't it always?) since we have, probably to many, kitchen appliances.

- The island will have an eating area that extends into the open space between the kitchen and the living room since we have our dining table in the sunroom extension shown at the top of the diagram.

I have carpentry experience and have designed and installed a kitchen myself before, so I plan to do 99% of the work myself with the help of my neighbor, who was a contractor in a previous life.

I am 99% convinced that the Ikea kitchen is the way to go. The faces will be AXSTAD.

The ceilings are 108" and I calculated the top cabinets to be 100", which allows 18" between the counter and the bottoms of the wall cabinets . I also plan to fill out the 8" space between the cabinet tops and the ceiling with a simple shaker style crown moulding.

Pictures speak better than words so here goes:

Current kitchen layout (we changed the awful pink wall color to a SW gray before we moved in)






Planned layout:



This zoom shows the planned table extension off the island


The white box at the end of the island is a filler for an under counter fridge.


The corner top cabinet will be cut down to match the height of the other top cabinets




Every time I open the Ikea planner I think of another change and don't want to miss a thing with this build. "Buy once, cry once" is my motto on this remodel.

I'm looking forward to your thoughts.

Thank you!

-Mike T.

Comments (47)

  • millworkman
    3 years ago

    Scaled floor plan with all dimensions would certainly help.

    Mike T. thanked millworkman
  • Mike T.
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    Thanks for checking out my project.

    Will this work?


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  • Mike T.
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    We haven't locked down our decisions for the backsplash or counter tops. We are leaning heavily towards soapstone for the counter tops, and tile of some type/color for the backsplash. I'm not sure what size tile or color would look best as a backsplash.

    If you did a soapstone counter top, would you go with an integrated soapstone sink or an undermount stainless sink?

  • PRO
    BeverlyFLADeziner
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Cooktop on the counter is not very desirable IMO.

    Here are some corner kitchens that take advantage of the corner for the cooktop. All of these kitchens manage to get a huge amount into a fairly small space.






    Mike T. thanked BeverlyFLADeziner
  • Mike T.
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    @BeverlyFLADeziner did you mean having the cooktop on the island is not very desirable? You are the second person to take that position and advise against it. I am interested as to the reasons why, so I don't make a design decision I might eventually regret.

  • PRO
    BeverlyFLADeziner
    3 years ago

    Cooktops on islands vent with a downdraft or overhead exhaust. The downdrafts are expensive and don't perform well and the hanging exhaust fans just ruin the appearance of the open space. Besides, no one I know wants to cook with people sitting near the cooktop. Most kitchens have the cooktop or range at the back wall and the sink or prep counter on the island. It's not a trend, it's the better layout.

    Mike T. thanked BeverlyFLADeziner
  • Mike T.
    Original Author
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    @BeverlyFLADeziner thank you again, for your comments and photos.

    I made an early design that moved the cooktop/ range to the wall where the refrigerator is and relocated the refrigerator to what is now the pantry wall. If I had a limitless budget, I would do just that, with a 48" built-in refrigerator in the pantry wall. The current cooktop is in the island and the downdraft ducting is already in place, so moving the cooktop to the back wall would require installing duct work in the ceiling, or, at a minimum, above the cabinets. Now, I do plan to close in the cabinets to the ceiling, so I may be able to run the duct vent in the void above the cabinets. You've given me something to consider.

    One influential reason I chose not to relocate the cooktop stemmed from our experience in a home we rented a few years ago that had a very similar island design to my current one. It had the cooktop in the island with a GE Profile telescoping downdraft vent and gas cooktop. It worked very well, or at least we did not notice poor performance.

    I will revisit my early design and see how much extra wiring and venting work would be required.

  • emilyam819
    3 years ago

    Since you’re changing to gas anyway, why not put the cooktop on the perimeter?
    Additionally, you’ve located the beverage fridge in the island. I’d definitely take advantage of the wall adjacent to the pantry closet for the beverage/snack area. You need counter there instead of tall cabinets, or else the kids and their stuff will be all over the island. That’s not ideal even without the cooktop there.

    Mike T. thanked emilyam819
  • Mrs. S
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Kids sitting at the island with the cooktop right there.... even if your kids are the careful type, their friends might not be... reaching for the salt and pepper shaker with a drapey sleeve near the hot stove... no.....

    The other thing that I've learned in this forum, is that cooks spend most of their time at the sink, not the stove. The sink is where the cook would want to be facing the action (or a beautiful view). Also, I'm just going to point out aesthetics here:

    the beautiful hoods you see in the fancy pictures are a chance to make the kitchen beautiful with a hood against the wall.

    maybe it's just me, enamored of shiny objects (haha) like gorgeous, functional tall faucets, but I would do a clean up sink on the wall, and a prep sink in the island, for the cook to work at while able to view the goings-on in the great room.

    Lastly, I haven't tried induction yet, but that would be at the top of my list for a kitchen remodel, over gas...but you've probably thought of that already.

    Mike T. thanked Mrs. S
  • stiley
    3 years ago

    We're about to redo our kitchen, and after living with it for eight years, one of my top priorities was to get the cooktop off the island. The downdraft gets in my way and limits the size of pans I can use. And I find that even though we have plenty of perimeter counter space, we all end up using the island the most to prep. So I'm excited to have our new cooktop on the exterior wall and have a pretty hood! Could you put your microwave in the island and have a range on that wall where you currently have the wall oven? Also, is it an option to have barstools opposite the sink? I'm not sure what that room is. But I wonder if having stools on the end of your island will leave enough walking space behind them. And will people be in the way of the cook if they're right there in the kitchen? Thinking about how teenagers with their legs sprawled out could be a tripping hazard. :)

    Mike T. thanked stiley
  • anj_p
    3 years ago

    Agree with getting your cooktop off the island. I would consider a range instead of a cooktop as well. I wouldn't move it to your wall oven wall. Put your range/cooktop on your fridge wall and move your fridge bedside your pantry. That at least keeps the island from becoming too much of a barrier. Also, move your dishwasher to the other side of your sink so it's not in the prep path. It's still not a great spot if you keep your cooktop on the island, but it's better. It's WAY better to move it if you move your cooktop.

    40" is not a sufficient work aisle, especially in front of a fridge. Min is 42" from counter to fridge handle. I would try to get 48" min, especially with the range/sink back to back.

    It doesn't look like you currently have any ventilation, so those costs will get pricy very quick if you need to open up your ceiling or floor. You may have an easier time venting outside from your fridge wall. 36" cooktops require fairly substantial hoods; you may want to consider induction, especially if you keep your cooktop in the island. Look up your local code for MUA requirements. Most pro style cooktops recommend >300 CFM hoods. In my area that triggers substantial makeup air costs since passive makeup air isn't really an option (cold climate).

    The wall ovens are not ideally located if you plan on using them much but if they're only occasionally used they're fine. Think about how much stove to oven cooking you do.

    Mike T. thanked anj_p
  • Mike T.
    Original Author
    3 years ago


    A rough rework. I will do another one with a range in place of the cooktop. I do like the idea of a nice big 48" range along the wall, but we'll have to see about the venting. I could run the vent through the back wall into the laundry room and box it in and vent it out the back, outlined in red below.



  • mcrawley24
    3 years ago

    Don't forget the Kitchen Triangle. Here's what Wikipedia says... Good Luck! You got a great plan going...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitchen_work_triangle


    The kitchen work triangle principle is used by kitchen designers and architects when designing residential kitchens:[3][4]

    • No leg of the triangle should be less than 4 feet (1.2 m) or more than 9 feet (2.7 m).
    • The sum of all three sides of the triangle should be between 13 feet (4.0 m) and 26 feet (7.9 m).
    • Cabinets or other obstacles should not intersect any leg of the triangle by more than 12 inches (30 cm).
    • If possible, there should be no major traffic flow through the triangle.
    • A full-height obstacle, such as a tall cabinet, should not come between any two points of the triangle.

    Besides the work triangle itself, there are several rules of thumb to consider when planning a kitchen:[3][4]

    • As measured between countertops and cabinets or appliances, work aisles should be no less than 42 inches (110 cm) for one cook, or 48 inches (120 cm) for multiple cooks.
    • A sink should have a clear counter area of at least 24 inches (61 cm) on one side, and at least 18 inches (46 cm) on the other side.
    • A refrigerator should have a clear counter area of at least 15 inches (38 cm) on the handle side; or the same on either side of a side-by-side refrigerator; or the same area on a counter no more than 48 inches (120 cm) across from the refrigerator.
    • A stove or cooktop should have a clear 15 inches (38 cm) area on one side, and at least 12 inches (30 cm) on the other side.
    • At least 36 inches (91 cm) of food preparation area should be located next to the sink.
    • In a seating area where no traffic passes behind the diner, allow 32 inches (81 cm) from the wall to the edge of the table or counter; if traffic passes behind the diner, allow 44 inches (110 cm).
    Mike T. thanked mcrawley24
  • Design Girl
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    I'm not loving the corner pantry or the island cooktop. Both of those are throwbacks from the late 90's. Is there a way you can straighten out the pantry? Those corner pantrys take up more space and actually don't give you any more storage than using regular 24 inch deep pantry cabinets so I might consider removing it and replacing it with tall cabinets. I'd move the stove to the wall and put the sink in the island. That's the more optimal and updated design for today's lifestyle. Something like below. Perhaps @Mamagoose can come on board. She is great at planning. I don't know how to use those programs. I've got to learn.


    Mike T. thanked Design Girl
  • Design Girl
    3 years ago



    Mike T. thanked Design Girl
  • Buehl
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    There's no landing space for the wall oven or MW within 48". For the oven/MW, consider stacking them, then you could have some counterspace to provide landing space. Or, eliminate that tall/deep cabinet and put base/upper for landing space and to create a usable Snack Center.

    The pantry is fine - it's on the perimeter and not interrupting the Kitchen workflow. It's when a corner pantry (or any pantry for that matter) is in the middle of the Kitchen that it's an issue. I'd much rather have a step-in pantry like that than deep pantry cabinets. Deep pantry cabinets, in my opinion, are a "last resort" when you cannot fit a reach-in, step-in, or walk-in pantry near the Kitchen. Things get lost in deep pantry cabinets. The possible exception is a pullout pantry cabinet no more than 18" wide. The pullout design (shelves attached to the doors) & narrower width compensate for the excessive depth (24" is twice as deep as recommended for pantry shelves).

    I agree with others -- don't put the cooktop in the island. Instead, put the Prep Zone in the island. Over 70% of the work done/time spent in the Kitchen is spent prepping. Only 10% is spent cooking -- actually watching food cook, stirring, adding ingredients. It makes the most sense to put the Prep Zone in the island -- assuming the island is the most desirable location, that is!

    It becomes even more important with children and with "regular" seating. (I'm not a fan of splattering grease or billowing steam in my face when seated.)

    Downdrafts are very poor vents...they have to work against gravity and the tendency for fumes, odors, grease. smoke, and steam (FOGSS) to rise and expand, not drop and contract! Downdrafts are only marginally effective for pots/pans right up against the downdraft and that are several inches shorter than the top of the fan*. Anything taller or farther away and forget it. In addition, to be even marginally effective the downdraft fan has to be pretty powerful and that's not a desirable combination with gas! At best, the fan will divert the flame; at worst, it will extinguish it.

    * I'm assuming a telescoping downdraft.

  • Buehl
    3 years ago

    What's the total width of the Pantry/oven/MW wall? You only show the space outside the pantry.

    It looks like the pantry is already there, I assume you don't plan to modify it.

    What are the measurements of the spaces b/w the wall and door trim on each side of the doorway on the current refrigerator wall?

    Would you consider taking down the wall segment b/w the doorway and the refrigerator? You would still build it in, but without the wall. You can several inches on that wall if you are willing to take down the wall.


    Mike T. thanked Buehl
  • Kim T.
    3 years ago

    Funny, I lived in a house with this floorpan in reverse for almost 10 years before we moved in 2018. Personally, I liked the cooktop on the island as it allowed me to look into the eating area/great room and feel part of the activity. Although there was an overhang for seating at the island, we never used it that way as we had a large kitchen table right there so we never even had stools for the island. I also liked the positioning of the sink- to be able to see across the sunroom and out into the backyard. Some commenters are not realizing that that area is more of a peninsula and the wall actually stops at the dishwasher as the floorpan shows it as a solid wall (which was the result if you didn't have the sunroom option).


    I did not like the weird shape of the island - large island, with almost zero storage space. The generally smaller-width cabinetry used by the builder made the kitchen look nice, but was not overly practical. Those many 12-inch cabinets are a waste of space since not much fits in them.


    I also liked the walk-in pantry, I thought it held quite a bit. We ended up with a counter top microwave in the corner as the original owner didn't even put in any kind of microwave cabinet. As a poster above mentioned, I always felt that the oven was kind of far away from the rest of the kitchen, but I wasn't a big baker so it didn't bother me that much. We had a double oven next to the pantry and I used the bottom oven to store pans - don't think I ever turned it on. Since the main entry to the garage is through that door, you don't want to impede that walkway too much with encroachment from the island or pantry wall.


    If it were me, I'd turn the island as you've proposed and pack in as much storage as possible. Leave the sink and fridge where they are (no plumbing to move) and leave the cooktop on the island. The microwave could go into a cabinet next to the fridge (since you'll be getting additional storage in the island) or in the corner or get one of those drawer ones for the island. Also, if you use the oven more, you could get one that works under a cooktop and put it in the island. I'd follow a previous poster's suggestion to move the wine fridge to the current desk area (with a single-height counter) to discourage people from using the island for a drop station. And put in tall pantry cabinet(s) to fill the space. I wouldn't extend the island any further than the end of the sink peninsula or how would you use the rest of the kitchen eating area space? The other thing I wish I had in that kitchen was a pull out trash can either in the island or next to the sink.


    If your budget is larger, then moving the cooktop to the current fridge wall is an option but I think you'd then have to figure out where to move the fridge leaving it in its current position along with the cooktop would feel a bit crowded to me. Putting the fridge on the current desk wall is probably the only option, but it's along way away from everything then.


    Think about movement (or lack there of) when the dishwasher is open or the oven if you move it to the island. With the current weird angle of the island, others can still get around the open dishwasher and be working at the cooktop/island. Also, if your house was like ours, that hardwood is everywhere so keep that in mind when turning the island to make sure the current island footprint is covered and no patching will be necessary. You don't want to slide the island over and then find out there's no flooring underneath it.


    As a side note not at all related to your post, the bigger thing that bugged me about that house was the teeny tiny laundry room. I wish they would have extended that side of the house by 6 feet and made a decent sized laundry and mud room (and a third car garage!)

    Mike T. thanked Kim T.
  • Buehl
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    What may help you:

    New to Kitchens? Read Me First!: https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5972404/new-to-kitchens-read-me-first-2020-interim

    This thread includes info to include when asking for layout help (most of which you provided) as well as Kitchen Design Best Practices/Guidelines.

    If you are updating your measured layout, how wide is the Mudroom door, including trim?

    How thick is the wall b/w the Mudroom and the refrigerator?

    If you look at the thread above, you will see that we need detailed measurements, not just general; that's why I've asked for additional measurements.

    Mike T. thanked Buehl
  • Mike T.
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    @Buehl The pantry is 48"x48". I do not plan to tear it out, that would be too much for the scope of my project. I have thought about removing the wall by the refrigerator. I do know there is at least wiring for the light switch in that wall, which likely precludes me from removing that wall. Later models of this house do not have that wall.

    The other consideration for my layout is that the wall where the refrigerator is currently located is set back so a full size fridge sets at counter depth when installed. I am coming to grips with the potential of having to fill in that void. It seems a waste, but might be worth it in the big picture of getting the ideal kitchen layout.

  • Buehl
    3 years ago

    Here's an idea. I had to guess at some measurements since some key ones were missing. I "counted" boxes as best I could, but with 1 box = 1 sq foot, the margin for error can be an issue (guessing at what partial boxes really represent).



    WORK ZONES:


    Mike T. thanked Buehl
  • Mike T.
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    This is exactly why I came here! Thank you for all the input and effort you all are putting into helping me get the best kitchen possible.

    I revised the initial house layout drawing to show the actual size of the sun room (red circle). I initially had it extending to the end of the house, based on the model layouts I found online. I didn't notice the mistake since I was so focused on the Kitchen. The location of the sunroom wall is important because it would allow me to run the cooktop vent in the 8" space above the cabinets and directly through the exterior wall without running into the laundry room behind the kitchen.



    And as @Kim T. said, the full height wall along the sink counter ends at the dishwasher. as illustrated in the image above. The counter overhangs into the sunroom. We eat at the table in the sunroom, since I added LED can recessed lights and a chandelier ( it had no overhead lighting when we moved in). The "Morning room" area is just open space now.


  • Mike T.
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    @Kim T., I am so happy that you found my thread, given that you LIVED in the same kitchen I am working to improve. Your observations are inline with mine regarding the layout and use of the kitchen. the island is ridiculous, with it's shape and lack of storage. It is a space with lots of possibilities and some sizable constraints. The wood is indeed throughout the entire 1st floor. The floors will eventually be replaced, but, in the mean time, I can salvage floorboards based on the new island layout until we can replace the floors. The floors are a whole other subject and will be addressed in another dedicated thread.

  • Mike T.
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    @Buehl, That is a fantastic design! I am going to work on you layout and see what I can come up with. What program are you using for your layouts? I have always been a pencil and graph paper guy, but I do like working with computer based design programs, as they allow quick reworking of cabinet locations and layouts.

  • Design Girl
    3 years ago

    I like @Buehl’s design. The only thing I don’t like is the table end of the island. Why don’t you just use a regular table in the “morning room”. Those attached tables are only used when space is an issue ( which it isn’t in your case) It creates A larger barrier between the other wall and is generally a dated element. If doing a new kitchen you want the best function and the best look Long term.

  • Buehl
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Mike -- I don't use a design package. I use MS PowerPoint. I downloaded graph paper, loaded it into a PPT presentation and then created the various items using the shapes available in PPT that are all to the same scale. The main drawback is that I cannot show elevations, just flat pics like I posted above. I then saved it and use it as a starting point each time I work on a design. Think of it as a cross between "pencil & (graph) paper" and computer application.


    Mike T. thanked Buehl
  • Kim T.
    3 years ago

    If this post ends up being a duplicate, I apologize. I submitted a response a couple of hours ago, but don't see it now so I'll try again.


    I also like the design Buehl proposed. I would think that moving the cooktop to the corner would also help with the desired conversion to gas that you initially mentioned especially if you already have a gas line for the dryer in the laundry room behind the kitchen. I personally still like my cooktop on the island, but of course that is personal preference. Depending on your cooking and ventilation needs, the corner positioning may be a better option. I always got along fine with a downdraft.


    I'm not sure I would like the microwave so far from the cooking area. That is something we use daily, unlike the oven. Again, that is based on your needs/usage. I'd suggest walking over to the current desk area every time you microwave something for a week to see if that bugs you (remembering to take a wide path to account for your planned larger island).


    And another personal preference, I'm not sure I would include a prep sink especially in this configuration where they are essentially back to back. Why not just turn around and use the main sink? There is an expense involved in running plumbing to the island. Just be realistic about how your family uses the kitchen. How many people at a time, who does what, etc.? And think about when the kids get older, more helping hands - where?


    It is interesting how our floor plan was similar to yours but tweaked here and there. Our sunroom matched what you showed in your original drawing, ending at the wall between the kitchen and the laundry room. We also had a step down to the sunroom so it would not have made it as easy to incorporate into the kitchen space, counter-height-wise. I need to figure out how to send a message to you so I can share a link to the real estate listing of our old house. I don't want to broadcast the address out of consideration to the current owners. Do you know if we have to "follow" each other like in other social media platforms?

    Mike T. thanked Kim T.
  • lurkerlisa
    3 years ago


    Love soapstone! I went with a Blanco Sligranit undermount and a back painted glass backsplash. 6 years and still love it all!

    Mike T. thanked lurkerlisa
  • Mike T.
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    @Kim T. our living room and sun room are stepdown as well. I will have to run a gas line to the cooktop from the basement. Fortunately, these homes are constructed using the engineered floor joists and running the line is a straight shot to the island area, where i can cut into the sub floor and route it where ever I need. The plumbing for the sink runs under the island as well, so, if I choose to add a prep sink, like in my original layout, it is a straight forward task.

    As I work through different layouts, I see a lot of extra construction that may not be in my budget. This started out as a plan to update a dated and poorly refinished kitchen, add more storage and make it as usable as possible without changing the footprint too much.

    I enjoy the design, planning and build process and, especially the sense of accomplishment and satisfaction from doing most of the work myself, as such, I plan to do the same here. I will get the proper permits where necessary and call in my electrician and plumber friends when necessary to ensure all is done correctly and safely.


  • Mike T.
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    My wife also likes the idea of facing the rest of the house while cooking, so that is always a consideration. I need to crunch some numbers so I don't fall into the trap of false economy with regards to appliances and ventilation needs. It may well wind up that constructing a wall to box in the corner is time and money better spent than trying to ventilate an island cook top. Lots of thinking to do.

  • Mike T.
    Original Author
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    @lurkerlisa That is very much the cabinet and crown moulding look I am going for. Those counters look great, especially with that wood.

  • kriii
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    I am no design expert but I do think that the stove in the island has to go. It really isn't safe, especially with little ones. The venting is a big issue also. I have a big island, and even if I have the tables set up everyone gathers around it at gatherings (during the before times) so those flames are a danger. I have the stove behind the island and prep on the island. The majority of cooking is the prep and I'm facing the rest of the room for that. Maybe your wife cooks differently than me, but I don't have to spend a great deal of time actually facing the stove. Good luck on the project and be sure to post photos when you are done.

  • Buehl
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Your wife is probably equating prepping with cooking. They're not the same. I think that if she really focuses on what she does and how much time each task takes, she will realized that most of her time is spent preparing the food prior to cooking it (putting it in the oven or putting it on the cooktop).

    There are few dishes that need your constant attention for long periods of time. Usually those things that do take more time need your attention, not distraction. They usually also benefit from more effective ventilation (I'm thinking of stir frying and similar cooking).

    The corner provides you with an excellent location for venting to the outside, especially when you made corrections to the layout. It will be much cheaper to vent straight out than having to cut across the room. Venting will also be more effective b/c you won't be making extra turns. You can probably get a less powerful hood (and cheaper) if you can vent straight out the back.

    If the MW is too far for you, you could put it b/w the refrigerator and cooktop, but MWs usually work better outside the primary work zones, as do refrigerators. They should be nearby, but on the periphery. That way, someone not prepping/cooking/cleaning up can raid the refrigerator or use the MW for a snack (or to help out) without getting underfoot. This is especially important when you have kids around.

    It's your choice, obviously, but think about the nice Snack Center out of the way of the Kitchen!

    And remember, you will have more than one person working in the Kitchen at a time as your kids start learning to cook & cleanup, so you want plenty of prep space for multiple people and 2 functional Prep Zones will be very useful! They were in our home when our 2 kids were growing up and even now with just 3 of us our prep sink is very handy and used at least as much as the cleanup sink. (KEY components to a functional Prep Zone are direct water access and sufficient counterspace next to the water source.)

    If this were my Kitchen, I would put a prep sink in the island and have a separate Snack Center, but it's up to you.

    Oh, and BTW, when I did the design I realized that a nice thing about your pantry is that it will direct people away from the oven(s). They'll still pass b/w the island and ovens, but the pantry wall offers some protection without blocking the view of the oven(s) or access to the oven(s).

    Mike T. thanked Buehl
  • PRO
    adalisa frazzini
    3 years ago

    Hey Mike T. pantries like the existing one are a notoriously inefficient use of space, so I’d first propose you rip it out and add addl full ht cabinet and the fridge to replace it. You should always try to keep mw near fridge, as well as a countertop to pull stuff out of fridge and place hot items down out of mw (and ovens) so I shifted mw over and you can decide if you want it in base or uppers, but make sure there’s a countertop in that space.

    With fridge moved, cooktop can now be centered on mud wall and a hood can be installed above. I would remove the 12”W cabinets in island to make sure you have 48” between range and island, and widen island.

    You should consider adding an addl dw somewhere with so many kids around.

    This kind of puts you back at sq 1 with your ikea cabinet configurations.

  • Buehl
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Pantry cabinets, especially wide (>18") and deep (>15") are very inefficient storage. Things easily get lost n the depthand can be difficult to access.

    Pantries -- reach-in, step-in, walk-in -- are better (as long as they have shelves around 12" deep -- the "sweet spot" for pantry storage).

    • You can see everything with a quick scan as opposed to having to open/close doors & drawers over & over until you find what you're looking for.
    • 12" is deep enough for all food storage -- cereal boxes, cans 2 or 3 deep, etc. -- without being so deep that things get lost in the depths.
    • 12" is deep enough for all but the most over-sized small appliances. Toasters, breadmakers, waffle irons, blenders, food processors, mixers (even KA stand mixers), etc., all fit on 12"D shelves.
    • You can utilize the entire space, floor-to-ceiling with no limits imposed on you by cabinets (toekicks, limited cabinet heights, crown molding, etc.)
    • Much more flexibility with shelving (assuming you have adjustable shelves)
    • No wasted space from drawer hardware, cabinet frames, cabinet walls, drawer boxes, etc.
    • They're also much less expensive to build.


    If someone has no choice b/c there's no room for even a reach-in pantry, then stick with pullout pantry cabinets (the ones with the shelves attached to a top and bottom door) no wider than 18". At 18" and with pullouts, you can see everything by first looking on one side and then on the other. (Note: if the pantry cabinet is against a wall, I would stick to no wider than 15" since you won't be able to see from the side against the wall.) As pullouts, you only have two doors to pull open to find what you're looking for.

  • PRO
    adalisa frazzini
    3 years ago

    only ever do full depth pantry wall with full extension organized baskets or drawers.

    Mike T. thanked adalisa frazzini
  • Mike T.
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    @adalisa frazzini, while I would like nothing more than to rip out the built in pantry, there is ducting and electrical running in the partition wall by the mud room door and electrical in the wall by the stove. I am capable of tearing those out, but it is not in the budget for this project. I could hold off on the entire project and save money to be able to include it in the budget, but then I would want to install a 48" built-in fridge along that wall, which adds another $11K to the project. I have no doubt it would look amazing but that is more project creep than I want to deal with.


    On another front, I've pretty much convinced myself that an induction cooktop is going to replace the electric cooktop instead of propane. I am still considering the placement of the cooktop along the wall vs. the island. I know the prevailing sentiment by the KD pros here is that a cooktop does not belong on the island and every time I am using it I am conscious of their advice. However, I'm not yet convinced that the way we use the kitchen island and cooktop works for us and the extra time and $$ required to relocate the cooktop is worth it.

    I would like to focus more on having the right storage for the appropriate tools in the best locations. I am working on defining my task areas based on a couple layouts and will walk through them with the Minister of War and Finance (Wife) when I'm done with them.

  • Design Girl
    3 years ago

    @Mike T. - It's always a good idea to think things through. I have to say that I am in the camp that says you should get the cooktop off the island. It's just an old and outdated placement from the 80's and 90's. My son is looking to buy his first home (many have not been touched since they were built in the 90's. They all have the cooktops on the islands - of the ones that have been renovated, they have all been removed. In terms of induction, I say go for it. It is SO much easier to clean, is as responsive as gas, and won't heat up your kitchen. I LOVE cooking on it. Ventilation will be easier as well, and could keep costs down without any sacrifice. However, I would put it in the corner like @Buehl suggested with a nice hood over it. Buehl's layout works well in your space, meeting all NKBA guidelines and brings the kitchen into the 2020's. If you're going to the trouble and expense of a kitchen remodel, I hate to see people have a dated layout.

  • Mike T.
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    design with the pantry removed and cooktop along the wall

    Blank area would be a 48" built in refrigerator.

    area above cooktop for exhaust hood.


  • Design Girl
    3 years ago

    I'll be honest, I'm not fan of the corner pantry either, however, you don't want to cross a barrier (the island) every time you need to get to the fridge. Ovens are fine there as you usually just put something in and leave it for a while. The fridge is used a lot. If you could get the fridge so that it was placed at the end of the aisle that goes past the cooktop, that could work. Have you though about the sink centered on the island. Very popular these days. Usually more time is spend in front of the sink than at the stove.

  • anj_p
    3 years ago

    Agree with design girl. If you remove your pantry, put your fridge there so the island isn't a barrier.

  • Mike T.
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    @Design Girl and @anj_p, It may be possible to swap the oven cabinet and refrigerator, but the door to the mudroom is a consideration. That door stays open 99% of the time and it opens in to the area of the pantry. It's clear some compromises are going to have to be made.

  • Design Girl
    3 years ago

    @Mike T. - Do you need the door to the mudroom? We took ours off because it was easier and it is such a high traffic area.

  • Mike T.
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    @Design Girl there are times when we want the door closed, basically to hide the pile of shoes and jackets hanging up. But removing the door is something we will consider.

  • msjoan
    3 years ago

    Our gas cooktop is on the island, located much as your planned layout. It's handy to the sink while the island eating bar is off to the side away from it. We've had no problems at all. Ventilation is the trickiest part; I don't see a hood or vent in your current kitchen. You'll want something.

  • Design Girl
    3 years ago

    @Mike T. - Have you thought about a pocket door? Best of both worlds. Close the door when you want do, but you don't need to design around a door swing.