Central TX - Heat Pump vs. AC/Furnace (Propane) & 2 Stage vs. Single

3 years ago

I live in Austin, TX and currently have a 10 year old single stage 5 ton Trane serving 2,900 sf in a single story home. I also have a propane fueled 20 year old furnace that is on the fritz. I need to replace the furnace, which has me considering a full system replacement. While I'm at it I'll improve the duct work and redo the supply plenum. I have 3 different quotes and they're all over the place.

With propane being about $2/gallon (I have a 300 gallon tank) I end up filling that tank about 2X per year just for heating. My water heaters are elec. Cooking on propane. Pool heater is propane, but I seldom heat the pool. I figure I spend about $1,200 per year or more simply on propane for the furnace.

Options:

1) Install a 2 stage heat pump with dual fuel so that it can have propane fueled emergency heat.

3) Eliminate propane all together and go with a heat pump with electric emergency heat. I'd have to pull new 220v service for this.

4) Eliminate propane and go with a traditional 2 stage system with electric heat. Need to add 220v service.

5) Repeat what I have and go with a 2 stage system with propane fueled furnace. Again propane is expensive.

6) Go with a single stage option of #4 or #5 and put some money into other energy improvements.

In my climate, what is the best route? The difference between single and 2 stage is about $3K. If I was on natural gas I'd go that way in a heartbeat due to low cost and high heat instant gratification.

Also, I've had a variety of brands proposed: Champion (made by York), Trane, Lennox, Goodman. Thoughts on those? I'm developing an opinion that all are pretty good as long as the installation is good.

Thanks!

Featured Answer

kevin9408

3 years ago

I'd say go with a high efficiency 2 stage propane furnace and a heat pump. I calculated the approximate cost to change over your furnace to different configurations.

Your present propane bill is $1200 and I'm assuming your old furnace is 80% efficient. replacing it with a 95% efficient furnace would drop your heating bill down to about $1000. If replace with a new electric resistance furnace your heating bill would be about $1500. Electric is not cheaper to use than propane today's prices and someone lied to you, right?

Adding a good heat pump would drop your heating bill down to about $700 or less depending on the the efficiency of the heat pump and the outside temperature.

I lived in Waco 10yrs and know how cold, excuse me, cool it gets in Austin and a Heat pump makes sense for you. The Propane backup would make sense if it really ever got cold....(yea, right) down there. And a 2 stage furnace makes sense no matter where you live.

I could of shown the math work but it would be a little confusing so I didn't, but took a little work converting watts into btu's and prices and bla bla bla..... but you know what really confuses me? Why propane is cheaper up here in Minnesota compared to Texas. I Looked up the prices and we're about 30 to 40 cents cheaper per gallon, it should be the other way around. And what happened to option number 2?

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Comments (8)

M P
Original Author
3 years ago
last modified: 3 years ago
Thanks, Kevin. I'm getting blown out of the water by the pricing I'm seeing. Here is the quote for a heat pump with propane furnace:

Champion 5 Ton 2 Stage Heat Pump HL19B6021S

Champion Furnace TM8V100C20MP12C

Evaporator Coil CM60CXA1

16 SEER

Completely redo the return and supply plenums

Clean up duct runs - suspend, straighten

10 Y Parts/ 10 Y Labor

Cash price $14,132....supposedly a "buddy deal" since I work with this company on the commercial side. "retail" $19,055.

Straight Heat Pump - 2 Stage with electric heat (I'd have to bring new 220V) $11,613.

Option 2: Blank. Typo.

Hey if I went to a straight 2 stage heat pump and had electric back-up heat I'd probably only access that back-up 10-15 nights per year. Wouldn't that be better than adding a propane furnace? And hey, it can get chilly here, but nothing like you "tiny pops" are used to. Get it? Mini Soda? haha. I have a ton of coworkers in MSP.
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Tiger, my conflict is because I know I am being overcharged due to the rebate program. I resent that and just want a fair deal. I know that I am "losing" part of my rebate to the contractor who leaves me with just enough to make me think its a good deal because of the great financing. It is the financing which has made me decide to do it, that plus the attic sealing and insulation which I would probably not otherwise do. I ask a lot of questions because I like to be informed. Not really sure if heat pump will be worth it here either. They claim my energy "savings" will be an additional 5% or so, though a contractor not in the program told me they will manipulate numbers to make it work. Because the heat pump is slightly more efficient in my case I get a $1000 higher rebate, so my net cost is Actually the same. This is because the non hp option uses a more efficient hot water heater (needed for the program) that they are charging 400 more for, AND the rebate is 1000 lower. With those 2 choices the hp makes sense. It would make even more sense if the upgrade cost was not $1500. I could go tankless with non hp, get the full rebate, but cost is 500 more than hp. Figured I am more likely to see savings on the hp so not spending the extra 500. Anyway, after this heat wave i totally see the value in getting my attic done, so even though I will not be fully realizing the amazing 5000 rebate I will probably do it. My ac, in it's 16th year, had a hard time getting below 75 on these hot days, even the ones only in the low 90's. I'm sure it will be going in the next year or two. Neighbor paid 9200 beforerebates for a Lennox xc17 with an 80% furnace. I figure my higher eff furnace would cost more and so would a heat pump, but I know Amana would be cheaper than Lennox, based on that i think the 9200 is a reasonable cost to compare.... I will be spending about 11k for the Amana system, with a new power vent hwh and insulation and air sealing. I think that is reasonable (though I'd prefer a different brand ). I also think my price should be closer to 9k after rebates and that I am getting "only" 2000-2500 value of the 5000 rebate. I am also getting excellent financing. The dealer did do my audit and spend time getting my estimates together and revising them.....not 2500 worth of work. Decided to just do it if I can get the price dif between hp and not-hp lowered. I know you think I'm a pain, but what would you do? Would you accept a price you know is very high or keep asking questions? You have to,admit the price of 11800 is very high for Amana Aszc16 and Amvc95. (4 ton, 90k btu) Does any of that explain why I am conflicted? I am not normally difficult, only when I sense something is not right. Lucky for me when I buy cars there are sites to tell me what is fair and reasonable....being educated is my best option. I could just get an hvac but I don't see us ever forking out the $ for the attic work,separately, and I know it should be done. The attic must be done to get rebate so may as well do it. I hope you can see I am moving toward a decision. I don't want to bother getting more prices. I trust this co and now want to get the best deal that is reasonable from them. Just really wondering at this point how much wiggle room there might be on the Amana set up. The carrier is 2k more and I just don't see the value in it.
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kevin9408
3 years ago
I guess you're right about the 2 stage heat pump with electric back-up heat, to a point. As the outside temperature drops so will the efficiency of the heat pump. Some of the nights the heat pump will still heat the house but with the equivalent efficiency as the electric back-up, maybe.

A electric resistance furnace has a 3.4 EER, and at some point the air source heat pump will drop to that level or lower.. Ask the sales people to show you the chart/graft showing the performance in relationship to outside temps so you don't freak when you get your electric bill if the heat pump isn't adequate, but I'm sure it will do fine.

This drop in efficiency related to temperature is why air source heat pumps aren't the best option here in Minnesota. The best option here are ground source heat pumps which will blow away the cost of natural gas but the price tag is huge. I know a guy who did geothermal for heat and cool with no backup and added a roof full of solar panels, price tag was $60,000 5yrs ago.
mike_home
3 years ago
Given the high price of propane and the low price of electricity in your area a heat pump would be a good choice. The first thing I would investigate is to see if your house needs 5 tons of cooling. The summers are hot in Austin, but given the house is 2900 sq. feet 5 tons seems over sized. Most houses don't have the duct work large enough to accommodate the air flow for 5 tons of cooling. Your condenser may be labeled 5 tons, but you may only be getting 4 tons worth of air flow. You should also look into adding more insulation in the attic. For your area I would recommend an insulation value of R40 and the attic duct work should be R8.

If you are going to continue using propane for cooking then installing a propane furnace as the backup would make sense. The quote you got for a 100K BTU furnace is over sized. The furnace is probably over sized in order to handle the over sized heat pump. My advice is to get some more quotes. I have never heard of Champion equipment. It is probably a private label put on someone else's equipment.
kevin9408
3 years ago
Propane has 91K btu's per gallon input, Electric has 3400 Btu's per kilowatt. Propane gives you 72,800 btu's output at 80% efficiency. Electric aprox. 3400 Btu's output per kilowatt, (100%) with only a small amount lost.

72,800 btu's divided by 3400 btu's = 21.4 kilowatts to equal 1 gallon of propane. The average cost of 1 kilowatt in Austin - $0.1142 cents, times 21.4 Kilowatts equals $2.42 for electricty and little more expensive then propane at $2+ per gallon. But this will change drastically if Biden does ban fracking as he stated. But then what happens to the price of electricity? It's a guess, and having the ability to switch between the two may be a valuable option in the near future.

But the cheapest option with a stable price for ever would be to capture the heat in the sun with active solar collectors to heat water (not to be confused with solar panels to produce electricity), and store it in insulated underground tanks to use for the winter. After the initial investment it would cost you a few dollars a month in electricity to run circulation pumps, and you could even get the electricity from solar panels for that.

They do it in Alaska for building bigger than yours, easy and simple, only problem is getting insulated storage tanks in the 5K to 20K gallon range. I'd do it in a heart beat if I had some really big tanks, I have the land, backhoe and the solar collectors, 9 of them 5' x 9', salvaged from a $35,000 government subsidized program project in the late 70's. (The government loves wasting other peoples money.)

Johnson controls started a line of HVAC equipment called champion about 6 years ago. Parts?
sktn77a
3 years ago
For your home heating, go with a traditional heatpump (2 stage if you can afford it). Dual fuel heating systems are unnecessarily expenive for your area.
kevin9408
3 years ago
sure mini-split, some good points and does that include those cute little mini-split heat pumps that run 24/7 too, or is there a but coming.
PRO
Austin Air Companie
3 years ago
I would look at inverter heat pumps if I were you. I installed an inverter heat pump at my home around this time last year. It can heat down to 5F degrees. I've never seen it go into defrost once. I have electric strip heat indoors, but it's disconnected. (so I know it has never gone into defrost mode I would have felt it).

Now what I chose has some risks because it's Made in Chyna. But I felt it was worth the risk because it has essentially cut my air conditioning bills in half. I paired it with a Goodman air handler and coil attached to a 4 zone. It is the Bosch 1.0 version rated at 18 SEER. Now the Bosch 2.0 rated at 20 SEER is on the loose.

I service the Katy, Texas area. My last name is Austin.

Here is a lengthy thread on this particular discussion of choosing among heat pump brethren.

Central TX - Heat Pump vs. AC/Furnace (Propane) & 2 Stage vs. Single

kevin9408

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Central TX - Heat Pump vs. AC/Furnace (Propane) & 2 Stage vs. Single

kevin9408

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M POriginal Author

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M P
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