@SJ McCarthy Thank you. Well the builder/contractor chose the flooring sub so I don't have a choice there. They are going to show me in advance what the color will look like. He said emulsions could give more of the amber tone -- but it sounds like you are saying it won't. In terms of toughness -- if you mean durability, I do want that, but there are only two of us, no kids and no pets so we won't be very hard on it. I'm not sure how I can get them to chose another product if that is what they normally use.

@SJ McCarthy just curious. Are you a flooring company?

I'm a cork flooring expert. Cork is the SOFTEST oak floor in the world. Cork is finicky. Right after that it is tricky. And just for good measure it is moody and gets a bit pissy from time to time ;-P

If your builder says Emulsions will give you more 'colour' s/he is saying more YELLOW (this is called ambering). Mega offers a bit of colour so it will offer less amber.

Toughness means durability and 'wearability which is to say scuffs (material being put down like black rubber from runners), buffs (gloss change when something rubs on it to 'polish it up' with friction) and scratches (actual piercing of the finish but not making it through to the wood). These two options are, again, the entry level products (simply = cheap = lower level toughness) and should be expected to perform like "Walmart T-shirts" vs. Raulph Lauren Polo Ts.

Your builder can offer an allowance for flooring which you can then spend with the professional/material of your choice. This requires a bit of negotiation and will require an increase in your flooring budget (you will spend more).

Once the negotiations are done, you then source your own wood flooring professional and the finish of your choice.

I think you are correct. The flooring 'subs' aren't flooring subs. They are guys who swing hammers and roll liquids onto surfaces. In other words they are guys on the team. That's it. That's all.

You are welcome to stick with them and their skill level/material choices. But I don't think you should expect 'Bona Tough' nor 'Basics Longevity'. The builder doesn't work with the top level of 'good products'. S/he is working with low level 'Brand names'....kinda like shopping at Winners. The names 'look good' but the quality is horrid.

See what can be negotiated for a flooring allowance and then go out and find your own professional.

@SJ McCarthy Thanks. We are well beyond the point of negotiating on allowance for flooring. It was budgeted at a certain level (not an allowance that I could choose) and the builder chose the flooring company. It's not just some guys, it is an actual flooring company with good reviews. We are already behind schedule and over budget given some unexpected items and choices, and this sub has already been chosen and scheduled. So at this point it sounds like the best option is to ask the flooring company about a higher level product. How much more are we talking about? Double the price or a 10-20% increase? We don't have a huge house. The addition is only 16 x 22. And the existing rooms about that size combined. Of course the product cost is embedded in the whole quote so doesn't show up specifically.

A gallon of Mega can be purchased (wholesale) for $80. A gallon of Bona Traffic HD is more like $160 - $180. The material cost will double but the LABOUR costs will remain the same.

What's the quote/budget for flooring?

@SJ McCarthy thanks. For the sanding and finishing both new addition and existing dining/living:

- 1st Fl. Hardwood Select Oak Install, Sand and Finish New Addition $5,468.84 (not separated between cost of wood and sand/finish) Space is approx 16x22

- 1st Fl. Hardwood Sand and Finish Exist living Rm. $887.09

- Hardwood sand and finish existing dining room - $578.78

- Hardwood select oak install sand and finish vestibule $800 (not separated between wood cost and sand/finish)

So around 7k

On the east coast/DC area so things are expensive here, though he was middle of the road in terms of bids

Is there something between mega and traffic HD? Is there just traffic?

So you have 352sf of NEW wood being installed + site finishing: $5,468.84. Right.

We assume $5 - $6/sf average cost of a full sand/refinish of existing wood in an EXPENSIVE market (with medium to high value products used):

**$887.09 / $6/sf = 150sf of "living room" (that's VERY small!!!!)

**$578.78 / $6/sf = 97sf of dining room (extremely small)

Hmmmmmmm.....that's not adding up. A living room is often closer to 300sf and a dining room is closer to 200sf. If I'm right about the regular size of these rooms then you are paying them $3/sf for a full sand and refinish. And in an expensive market that is very low. Which is to be expected with the material they would like to use. As I've said before, the higher end products add $2/sf onto a job. NOW we have $5/sf...which is the N. American Average. The 'expensive' city costs would normally jump to $6/sf which is no where near your costs. Again, this is assuming a 'normal' sized 300sf living room and a normal sized 200sf dining room (I'm guessing here. Help me out please ;-)

Assuming: $6/sf for labour and site finish of 352sf = $2112. That leaves $3357 for the wood = $9.50/sf. I'm not sure the cost of 3" wide Select Grade White Oak in your area...That's one thing you can do to find out where the money is going.

You can see where they are offering a discount on the sand/refinish of the existing hardwoods. The install and finish is where they are making their money. That and the use of the $80/gallon Mega vs. $150/gallon Traffic HD.

Yes there is a Bona Traffic. It WAS the Gold Standard until Bona Traffic HD showed up. Now Bona Traffic is considered 'very good' but no longer "The Best".

Go ahead and check your measurements for the dining/living room area. I've 'assumed' 500sf. Feel free to update us on the ACTUAL square footage for those two areas.

@SJ McCarthy Thanks. Both Living room and dining room are approx 257 SF each -- 12.25 x 21

Remember, the builder gives me the numbers - i don't work directly with the floor company. And I have already committed to the change order.

@SJ McCarthy When I look up "bona traffic" I don't even see it, Only Bona traffic HD shows up in the google search. Probably very good is enough for my purposes I would think.

You need to look at the Bona website under 'professional'. Here's the link:

https://www.bona.com/en-US/Bona-Professional/Products/Coatings/Waterborne-Finishes-and-Sealers/Bona-Traffic/

As I suspected your square footage for the sand/refinish is 514sf. Which means my numbers are very very close.

My concern is the difference in SKILL LEVEL for a 1 part product (Mega or Emulsions) versus a 2 Part product like Bona Traffic. The two are VASTLY different to handle. So much so the Bona Traffic system is considered a ROYAL PAIN IN THE @SS! Which is ANOTHER reason it gets an increase in costs. Anyone trained in Bona 2 part systems have paid to learn it. So they charge a higher rate as a Bona Trained professional.

A flooring sub who offers product A (1 part product) or product B (1 part product that is oil modified not water based) is not going to have the success you want from a 2 part product. Even if you paid the extra money, you may get something worse than the cheaper options. A badly applied Bona Traffic is worse than a beautifully applied Bona Mega.

Just be aware of what you are asking from subs you have no way to pick out of a line up....'cause you didn't hire them.

@SJ McCarthy Thank you. I'll check with them about it, but sounds like I'm likely to end up with Bona Mega. Hopefully given that we are not "heavy users" it will work out fine. This caused me to think, we have a 5 year warranty from the builder so would this be covered if it didn't last?

Another question -- is it normal not to sand/finish underneath cabinets and appliances? Flooring company is saying they don't do this for 99% of jobs because if they sand/finish before all the stuff is in, floor is likely to get damaged.

Underneath permanent items (like walls, cabinets, etc) there is no need for the finishers do add finish. That means they do not finish under those areas.

Even if you rebuild the kitchen in the future, you will most likely require a full sand/finish at the time because the foot print will most likely change = new finish on floors. Wood finish is there to protect the wood from being damaged by people walking on it. Since the wood is underneath cabinet boxes there is no need to add finish to those areas.

@SJ McCarthy So the flooring company (via the builder) has said it will be $850 more to use Bona Traffic. Does that sound right or overpriced based on what you know?

You have 900sf of flooring to coat. These big boys are more expensive then their low-cost cousins. The extra $0.95/sf is right on target.

Have you found out which type of oak you have? You want a species match (white oak doesn't work well with red oak...there is a definite colour difference) as well as a plank match.

If you like the colour you currently have, you will need a light stain. The Traffic is 100% colourless which means your floors will be a light 'wheat' or linen colour when finished with just the Traffic.

If they use a light stain, then there is no need for a sealant on the floor (if it is white oak...red oak doesn't need a sealant).

@SJ McCarthy Your replies were so incredibly helpful! I'm a renovation contractor, my dad and grandpa were both hardwood flooring refinishers/installers. I personally only do 1-2 refinishing jobs a year.

Can you please take a moment to give me your educated view of Bona Mega 1 vs Basic Emulsions Pro? I'm in Canada, so my costs are higher. Through my distributor I pay $110 for Mega 1 and currently I can get Emulsion Pro on special for $62. I've never used Emulsion before, I've always used Bona products. The budget for this job doesn't allow me to use the Traffic series.

He Fix-It...Nice to see WinterPeg is still in business (I'm kidding!...Go Blue Bombers...if we get a season this year.....sigh....I'm getting tired of no CFL).

As a cork pro, I have limited knowledge of the products that do NOT work on cork. I'm also in Canada (if you couldn't tell) so I'm fully aware of our costs up here. I've worked with the bigger boys.

I know Loba 2K Supra AT (fantabulous product...it is a 2K product that retails for $190/gallon). It is in the same category as Basics StreetShoe (which works VERY well with cork) and Bona Traffic HD.

From what I understand, Basics Emulsion Pro is comparable to Bona Mega (the one that turns yellowish)...not the Mega 1. The person I've reached out to in situations like this (in Winnipeg) is Ray from Ray's Cork Flooring. He's used several different finishes in your neck of the woods.

Cork is very soft and finicky. If a finish 'works' on cork (ie. shows toughness and reduces gouging) then it works very well on every other wood.

Here's Ray's number. Tell him Stephanie (formerly of) Cancork told you about him. He might have access to some 'bulk' purchasing of finishes...

Ray's Cork Flooring: 204-256-7671

Remember: Emulsions ADDS yellow. It is not appropriate for 'raw' look wood finishes (ie. zero ambering allowed by the homeowners).

I hope this helps. I wish you all the luck!

Hey Stephanie! Nice to come across another Canuk on the ol' Internuts!

Yeah we're still chugging along here in 'Peg S#itty! The remodeling industry took a hit because so many homeowners were off work and decided to try and do things themselves. Buuuut, as I expected, I'm now getting calls to go and fix their f-ups.

I bought my 93 year old grandma a Bombers hoodie for Christmas, hopefully she gets to wear it next season! Doesn't sound like we'll see any CFL in 2021.

Where abouts do you live? Are you originally from Winnipeg?

I put cork flooring in my moms kitchen years ago. I hated the colour she chose back then, and hate it even more now. I'm buying her house in a few months and will attempt my first cork refinishing 😨

That is supremely helpful advice! Thanks so much for Rays digits! I think I've actually been in his shop before, years ago. It was in the basement of a small commercial building, if I remember correctly. Maybe near Osborne Village?

Oddly enough, this client wants a honey oak finish...I tried to talk them out of it, but they're set. I showed them a sample of Bona Amber Seal, and it wasn't nearly amber enough for them. So, I think I'll have to actually stain their poor oak floors right back into the 80's🤷 That being said, a little yellowing would be fine. If Basic Pro is on par with Mega, then I'll likely go that route as I can pick it up for $62/gallon, as opposed to $102 for Mega, or $110 for Mega One.

Traffic would sure be nice, but I'd be working for 🥜's if I went that route. Such a competitive market here. The client got 5 quotes, of which I was the most expensive, and I bid 25% under the industry standard! I bid $5800, and one guy bid only $3500! How TF can you refinish 1500sf of oak floors and a staircase for $3500?

Probably would have gone like this:

-Sand with 26

-Sand with 80

-Roll on a coat of Varathane with a $2 roller from Dollarama

-Hop in his 1992 Dodge Caravan

-Crack a warm Budweiser from under the seat.

-Drive home

-Then email an invoice for $4200.

I can't thank you enough for being so helpful!

Ah..that's so nice! I'm living in Vancouver (sigh...read: garbage can gray from September to May). I'm originally from Kelowna BC (ick!). I was a Bomber fan early on in my life. I was spoiled watching Dieter Brock throwing bombs from end-zone to end-zone...And Tommy Clements...Bob Cameron, Trevor Kennard, etc, etc, etc.

Anyhooo...I hope you get the right finish for their floor. It sounds like the Emulsion Pro is what your client would want. You can't go wrong with Basics. At least you will know how it works up for the next customer.

I know cork can be ugly when it fades. If you want to shoot some photos on Houzz I'll keep an eye out. But only when you have time....keep on keeping on. And yes, I've heard the 'fixing the fix' is going to be your bread and butter for the next 15 months or so.

The mills in BC are starting to ramp up production. We lost 75% of them over the last 15 years, but they are now bringing back a few shifts a day because the cost of lumber is SOOO high (don't catch yourself out on that...) that it now makes sense, once again, to open them up. It will take about 6 - 12 months to get production 'up' to today's needs. And then the forestry industry will take another 18 months or so to pick up speed to satisfy the new demand for building lumber.

I can't see the wood/lumber industry cooling off for another 3 years or so. Just keep that in mind when pricing a job.

@Fix-It-List Winnipeg Remodeling, Repair And Mainte How's it going? Did you manage to find anything that works?

@SJ McCarthy can you pleaee tell me whats the best none yellowing sealent product

water based in the market ( i have white oak stairs ) thank you.

this is the second time we we stand it down and stained it , but it doesnt have a sealent because whatever they use it turns yellowish after few days. So im going to do it myself.