Range vs Sink in an island...

Putting aside the safety issue of having a range/cooktop in an island (or peninsula) (especially with seating), where is the most desirable work place for you? It sounds like the island. If that's so, then keep in mind the that Kitchen work studies show far, far more time is spent at the sink & adjacent workspace than at a range. People think they spend more time at a range than the really do.

• 70% or more or the work and time spent in the Kitchen is spent prepping. This includes preparing food to put in the oven or on the cooktop -- washing/rinsing food, chopping/cutting/slicing, mixing, etc.

• 20% or less is spent cleaning up.

• 10% is spent cooking. This is the time spent checking on food, adding last-minute ingredients, and stirring. It's a rare dish that needs your constant attention, it's usually check and go do something else. If a dish does need constant attention, then it's not a good idea to be distracted.

So, by the numbers, 90% or more of your work is done at the sink or next to it, NOT at the cooktop/range.

If you really want to prep & cook in your island, then you need an island at least 126"W x 49.5"D (that's 10'6"W x 4'1.5") to fit both the Prep Zone & Cooking Zone (with emergency landing space & safety buffers). Note, this does not include a Cleanup Zone, just a prep sink + workspace. You need even more if the Cleanup Zone is on the island as well.

Width:

1.5" counter overhang on end

+ 24" cabinet for emergency landing space & safety buffer

+ 30" cooktop (or range)

+ 36" cabinet/workspace (42" or more is much better)

+ 21" sink

+ 12" landing space

+ 1.5" counter overhang on end

==================

126"

Depth:

1.5" counter overhang on front of island

+ 24"D cabinets

+ 24" behind range for seating for a safety buffer

==============

49.5"

TV cooking shows have done us a disservice...they mislead us into thinking we spend a lot of time at the cooktop. What people don't realize is that all the prep work is done before the show and very little is actually done during the show. Ditto, actually, for the cooking. Those TV chefs don't really prep & cook during the show, they just demo a few things for the camera. It looks like they're doing all that work on an island facing the camera, but they're not.

Oh, and don't forget to ensure you have suitable aisle widths. This is especially important when all three primary work zones occupy a small space like yours do.

Minimum aisle widths:

• 42" between the island and refrigerator for a one-person (and always a one-person) Kitchen. This means no one helping you prep or cook and no one cleaning up, unloading the DW, getting a snack, etc.
• 48" between if two or more people will be working in the Kitchen at one time (prepping, cooking, cleaning up, getting a snack, unloading the DW, etc.)

Note that aisles are measured to/from the items that stick our the farthest into the aisle -- appliance handles, counter edges, etc. They are not measured to/from cabinets. Cabinets are generally shown as 24" deep...but that's just the box. It doesn't include doors/drawer fronts or counter overhang (1.5"). Unfortunately, most General Contractors and cabinet salespeople do not understand this and mistakenly measure incorrectly. Your layout appears to measure to/from cabinets, which means your aisles are narrower than they show...and they're already too narrow.

So, the 40" aisle is really 37":

40"

- 1.5" overhang on the island

- 1.5" overhang on the sink wall

=====

37"

I'm also concerned about the Dining Room with the refrigerator in it. You need at least:

• 48" between the refrigerator and table
• 48" between the table and the sliding door
• 36" between the wall and table on the far end
• 48" (with 54" better) between the island and table

Depth needed: 170" (14'2")

32" depth for refrigerator (counter-depth)

+ 48" aisle b/w refrigerator & table

+ 42" deep table

+ 48" aisle b/w table & sliding doors

============

170"

Your Dining Room is only 12'11" (155") deep, over a foot too narrow (15" too narrow). Yes, you could skimp on aisle space, but with the refrigerator on one side and the sliding door on the other, I think you will regret it b/c both are probably going to be busy.

We had a very similar layout and opened it up the same way in our last house. We did a longer wall at the entry and wrapped cabinets around there so it was an L-shaped kitchen and more of a designated entry and not walking right into the kitchen. I hate when the kitchen is right there steps from the door with no wall. We did a built in bench and round table at the other end where your dining room is, it was a small house so no real dining room but the island and table seating were more than enough on a regular basis. And definitely switch the sink and range, prep on the island next to the sink.

Evaluate how YOU cook. I spend a lot less time at the sink that prepping and cooking, but some do the opposite. So, it is really something you need to evaluate for yourselves.

This said, I would prefer the range on a wall, ideally an outside wall if you could.

As for budget, you need to figure out how much it will cost you and whether it fits your budget, and of course, you need a pro to tell you whether this wall is load bearing or not. But nobody here can tell you how much it will cost because we do not know where you live, what level of cabinets and appliances you want, so take price evaluations here with a grain of salt.

I like @houssaon's layout.

Many of my suggestion have been stated by others. I would advise against any cabinets solely designed for one purpose: the mixer cabinet. Keep the mixer on the counter. You note that you don’t like how a slide in range “sticks out” from the cabinetry, hence your desire to have stacked ovens and a separate cook top. What do you mean? I have had slide in ranges and when properly installed, they do not “stick out.” I think the suggestion to move your garage door so that your fridge is located “in” the kitchen makes sense. I would not want to have a door interrupting that flow of cabinetry and work surface.

With due respect I think it's poor design to have your fridge in your dining area, across an aisle from the working area of the kitchen. Dump the wall ovens and put the fridge there.

Thanks all for all the feedback and suggestions.

1. We have a structural engineer and kitchen designer. The wall is load bearing and the structural engineers have the calculation and drawing for the beam to replace the wall.

2. My spouse is a lot into baking and one of biggest demands/wish is to have a lift up mixer which neatly tucks away when not in use. I agree this might not be a very good design or space planning to have a dedicated cabinet but I guess it goes in the personalization aspect.

3. I do like the idea of moving the door so that the refrigerator can be squeezed in on the other side but this means the cabinetry on the other side will be more of an L shaped rather than the counter space tucked in two full length sections. I am not sure how symmetrical it will look. I think something I should consider more.

4. I definitely spend much more time on the cooktop than the sink. So I prefer having a cooktop on the island rather than against the wall. It might be against the standard kitchen design but I think it will be more suitable for my needs.

5. I am not looking for budget/cost advice here. I believe it will vary tremendously on location and finish choices. We have ballpark quotes from a couple of contractors and have a rough estimate of cost. We are mostly looking for suggestions on kitchen floor plans and choices and this has been very helpful in thinking of different settings beyond our personal thoughts and ideas.

6. We also are re-evaluating our choice of built in wall oven now as mentioned in another comment. Not having the oven on the wall will open up more counter space. We really disguise the slide range on the island and how it sticks out. Most of the slides in which we saw in appliance stores had stick outs. We are considering having the built in under the cooktop. I read on houzz that it is not a very ergonomic setup as the oven is much lower. My baker spouse is not very excited about it but have mentioned does not mind more squats for a cleaner kitchen look :D

@course411

I think that is a good idea. If we do that then the we will have 1 ft space between the sink and the refrigerator. It seems like it should be okay not ideal. We cannot swap the dishwasher and sink as it will mean that the dishwasher comes in front of the cooktop and cannot be opened while someone is cooking.

My first reaction to your floor plan was to say 'no' because I would hate to have the refrigerator in my dining area. Instead of the refrigerator, I'd place a pantry in that location. If you are not totally sold on counter seating, you could expand the size of your kitchen. Here's a couple of rough drawings just to get across what I'm trying to say.

Note: On option 1, I'd move the refrigerator to the far right -- it always looks better at farthest place, when possible. And interior 'window' at 5'-6", not 4'-6"

Question: where does your existing wall (the one with refrig, cooktop, wall ovens) fall on the new plan?

This is what I envision, you can move sink or range off the perimeter onto the island but I'd rethink walking in the house right into the island without a wall.

I do not like how your appliances are all spread out from each other, especially how awkward the refrigerator appears to be so far from the rest of the "main kitchen area" and placed next to the table. Here is my suggestion: Remove two double ovens, because a convection oven is just as good and you will have more space. Get a regular stovetop with the oven underneath and place that where the sink currently is. On the island where the cooktop currently is sitting, have the sink and dishwasher there (also I agree with others that one level counter is better). Where the double oven is currently placed, move the fridge there. That way you will be able to have all your appliances located in the kitchen space. Now, since you do not have a designated pantry. You can utilize those cabinets that span to the right into the table area and create large cabinets that would be able to store food etc. Good luck with your project!

"...we found out that raised bar is outdated..." First off, I don't believe in "outdated". If you like it, do it. This is your house. I had exactly the same dilemma with a new island design. I originally had the stove there and did do multi-level and even had a small pony wall between the levels to add even more screening. I loved the way the design looked. It was beautiful! However, several major redesigned later the stove moved to a wall and the island ended up with no appliances and we opted for all one level. Reason one: new overall design was less formal and didn't need extra division between kitchen and dining room. Reason two: the "baker" wanted a large work surface. Do what feels right for you.

Regarding fridge placement, I agree that it would be nice to remove wall ovens and put the fridge there, though the 1' space between sink and fridge could get very inconvenient. I don't think you can put both fridge and stove on one wall. With only 9' and a 36" fridge and 36" stove you'd be left with just 1.5' counter on either side of stove. That would be really tight.

I definitely don't think you should move garage door. You are right that it would mess with the nice symmetry you currently have. Also, your garage door would open right into your dining table instead of into a passageway, which would be awkward.

If you do leave your fridge in the dining room, I would definitely make it a panel-front so it blends in with the cabinets and doesn't look like a fridge in the dining room.

@itsourcasa I like your plan. It is something which did not think of. It also gives the benefit of hiding the kitchen from entry but yet keeping it open from the living.

Although we really don't want to touch the garage door as it has lot of plumbing and gas coming in. Many GC mentioned that moving the wall is easy task but it is hard to tell how much it cost unless we open it up which might lead to little to too many surprises. I am thinking is there a way design with your way but keeping the garage door intact? Maybe have a corner sink?

Symmetry is super overrated. Who are you imagining is going to comment/care/notice whether your door from the garage is spaced dead center from the walls? A door to a garage is not a design feature or focal point, and it seems very strange to design a kitchen around that.

I like itsourcasa's idea if you want an open layout; mjlb's options are quite functional too, if more closed.

What are thoughts on this floor plan which keeps the refrigerator in the kitchen. Although it does place the dishwasher right in front of the range. A typical dishwasher when open will take space of 27 inch. So there is a tight space for someone cooking to still work. It is a very rare case when we will have someone unloading dishes when someone else is cooking. Haven't happened even once in the last year.

In this plan we plan to replace the corner cabinet in the dining room with a full length cabinet to act as a pantry and remove the sink of the dining room to have more counter space.

@mjlb

Thanks for the suggestion. It seems like you are keeping the wall which we plan to remove completely as it is. Is my understanding correct in the plan 1 and in plan 2 you are filling our pocket door.

We despise the wall which separates the kitchen from the living room and want an open concept and paying $25k in construction to just remove that load bearing wall and replace it with a beam of span 21-23'

I think that's an improvement. I would likely want to move the range to the right, toward the front door, to give myself a better prep space on one side of the range. I wouldn't care about the lack of symmetry. I expect others would have hesitations about walking in the front door to a heated range.

If you are willing to give up the counter seating, you could push forward your range and associated cabinetry, widening the space between the two cabinet runs. That would help with opening appliances that conflict, and perhaps more importantly, would allow two people to use the space more comfortably. You might also consider moving the m/w to above the dishwasher.

@Muriel Thompson: Thanks for the suggestion. I guess we will prefer the second plan than the one which we initially preferred. I don't think I will be able to live with range not in the center of island. It will give be nausea :D

@mjlb We really like the counter seating and don't want to give that up sadly. If we move the microwave above dishwasher then we will loose the only wall cabinet which we have in kitchen section to store cups and stuff. I guess plates and bowls can be stored in island drawers to some extend but so far we are more accustomed to storing them in wall cabinets.

IMHO, the open concept would work much better if you reversed your kitchen and dining locations. Obviously, that could be more money, but it would be a better result. Instead of 9-ft cabinet runs, you could have nearly 13-ft on the wall next to your sideyard, and plenty of room for a long island with seating in front of that. Everything would fit in conventional layout. A drawback (aside from additional costs) would be lack of nice windows for the dining area, but I imagine the sliders to the backyard might be enough.

I haven't read every word of the comments, but my preference would be for the sink to be in the island with the DW to your right and dish and silver drawers to your left by the dining area for ease of setting the table. Switching the fridge and ovens locations would make for easy offloading of foods to be prepped under water. The ovens would then go in the dining area by that nook that looks like the baking center someone needs, hence keeping all the baking together in one area. If you can manage with a single oven and micro, that would also keep the micro out of your main work area so snackers can pop corn without getting under foot. My daughter has a gas cooktop with a down draft vent system in front of a plate glass window overlooking the pool, and it works very well. I think you could do the same where your sink is.

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Here's a combo of induction with gas on the side.

Induction Mixes with Gas Cooktop · More Info

I like the new plan. Only thing I would change is to make the cabinets along dining room wall all full height (no counter), or else counter hidden behind pocket doors. It would make the dining room look like a dining room rather than an extension of the kitchen.

I do like the idea of flipping the kitchen and dining room. Definitely more work moving lots of plumbing, but could be worth exploring.

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@margaret17

We did that exercise of flipping the kitchen and dining earlier. That was our initial thought when we bought the house although it turns out it is very weird when layout in 3D. No matter how we arrange stuff we will have cabinets against the garage wall (24 inch) then 36 inch clearance from that and 36 inch clearance from the backyard door i.e. 96 inch in total leaving us with a space of 155 - 96 = 59" of space for island which seem really small for such a big layout move. Also it pushes the dining to right in front of the door.

My spouse really wanted to have that big all enclosed shelving although we did not not explore it much further. May be something which we can explore more. Any pointers on cabinet makers who make such cabinets?

@mjlb: We did this exercise of moving it in Chief Architect. We had the above mentioned issue also note that the with that move we are looking at 59" space left. A 33 inch sink and 24 dishwasher is 57 with no counter space on island. Unless we rotate the island to face the backyard door and with that orientation it just felt weird.

I'm assuming any custom cabinet firm can make pocket doors. I found these guys when I was doing a search for example photos for my own kitchen. I haven't actually reached out to them, but assume they going to be very expensive.

https://www.salice.com/ww/en/products/sliding-systems/pocket-door-system

For switching kitchen/dining, did you consider something like this? The island is shortened by 2-ft, but the back wall is wider by about 4-ft, plus you pick up additional upper cabinetry in convenient spots. There's good counter space too. But I still shifted the pantry into the dining area.

@mjlb I see, we never considered without the cabinets on the garage wall. So is the range slide in or the oven is built in under cooktop? I ask because I don't see an oven and microwave in the plan.

@margaret17 Yes, that was our understanding too, that there is no semi or prefab in such a design and custom will run very expensive. Since this is not our forever home we don't plan to drop that much dough. We are already spending a lot to remove a darn wall :(

Your choice on slide-in range or oven. I noted m/w drawer to left of the sink, but you could probably put it on either short end of the island. Plenty of details to work out, but just wanted to see if the general layout suits you.

@mjlb Makes sense, but in just our personal opinion it feels like beats the open concept which we want i.e. while cooking being able to interact/face guest in living room etc.

Invite them to sit at the island! Just kidding -- you know the feel and function you want better than I do.

I think we want to go with this plan. Since the refrigerator in dining was a big no-no we squeezed it in the kitchen.

In this plan we have a dishwasher in front of the cooktop on the island which might be a little inconvenient if we ever cook and load/unload the dishwasher together. Something which we have never done so far. We do not want to give up the counter seating so will have to live with the limited clearance in the aisle.

We are trying to decide on the single oven and microwave placement with this.

1. Slide-in: We ditch the idea of a wall oven all together and make peace with slide-in sticking out of the island a little and all the mess which we will drop in the gap on both sides. The microwave still remains under the island. The only advantage I see here is that it will save us some money and also give us more flexibility in the kind of range we can get. From some research, under the counter oven install needs a compatible gas cooktop. The right side of the garage door is another 30 inch full length cabinet so we have two pantries and a counter space/buffet table in between.

2. Under countertop: Oven goes under the counter top giving us a seamless look when compared to slide-in in the island. Microwave is a drawer microwave in the island too. It will be some hassle to install a compatible under counter top oven and cost more money. The right side of the garage door is another 30 inch full length cabinet so we have two pantries and a counter space/buffet table in between.

3. On the Wall: The oven and microwave are on the wall right to the garage door. We are anyways removing the small sink in that area and the other corner will be a full length 30inch cabinet acting as a pantry. In between we have counter space which can be used as a buffet table when hosting or baking, coffee nook otherwise. Although this adds appliances towards the dining room.

Any thoughts on which might be better?

@mjlb, @margaret17, @Muriel Thompson, @itsourcasa and others.

Just from a house flow perspective, the kitchen-to-dining area flip flop seems really appealing if you can give it another shot.

@petula67

Why do you say it looks appealing? My thoughts are that the kitchen is a corner from the living room and dining table gets right next to front door.

I would definitely go with oven option 1 or 2 and not 3. I would suggest researching appliances (stoves, cooktops, ovens) to find all the features you want and have that drive the decision between the two options. From a design perspective, they are very similar.

How committed are you to the sink in the dining room? What if you moved the ovens (is that what you have on the far right as shown in the elevation?) toward kitchen, and then put a full top to bottom pantry on the far right? I’m suspecting that the sink in that space won’t get much use, and you will do your prep over in the kitchen so the counter top won’t be used much either, perhaps.

@Muriel Thompson

Yes that is the idea. We will remove the sink in the dining room. The far right will be a full length pantry 30 inch cabinet and the left too. In between base and wall cabinet giving some counter space

The only thing which we are trying to decide is the solution for the oven and microwave now.

Hmmm. "Appealing" because I love a multi-functional dining area that links to both the living room as well as the kitchen. With a nice, open-feeling table right in the sweet spot of the house, some people find they don't need or even want seating at the kitchen island, which can help in a smaller kitchen space.

Here are some oven and microwave ideas. I like the appliance loft cabinet because that keeps you from using an entire base cabinet for the mixer.

Didn’t load above.

Thanks all for the replies.

I am seeking a little more guidance from the experienced community here.

This is the final plan which we have come up with our KD.

As mentioned by some of the people here, removal of wall with island cooktop (something which we really like the idea of but seems non-functional in standard design) make the space a little weird. It should be noted that with this plan unless we move the garage door we cannot switch the range with sink so that the sink is in the island. We really don't like the idea of moving the garage door due to cost involved in it and also it will make the door end up opening right in front of the dining table.

Pros:

- We get an open kitchen something which is liked in the area we live in. Maybe higher resale value?

- Island cooking (something which we like but can live without)

Cons:

- Loss of cabinet space. Since the wall is removed there is no space for wall cabinets now.

- The kitchen side of area has minimal cabinet space. With the refrigerator being moved against the wall that space is also gone for wall cabinet. Very limited drawers to store cooking utensils and even less for pots and pans. No dedicated cabinet for trash.

- Removing the wall and replacing it with the beam is expensive due to the span of the beam approx 23ft and since we are in high COL, construction cost is higher. We have been quoted 20-25k to just remove the wall and put the beam.

- The ROI on removing the wall seems low. It does give open concept but does not increase any effective kitchen space and take away cabinet space.

We also considered many other floor plans which were proposed here (thanks a lot to everyone who shared their idea. Really appreciate it). From all the plans which involved removing the wall the above was the only one which we really liked.

Now our second option is to not remove the wall at all and do a total facelift with additional cabinetry in dining area for pantry and other stuff. This is something similar to what @mjlb proposed.

I quickly played around with this idea in chief architect and here are some exports. Please pardon the amateur design.

Pros:

- We do not need to remove the wall. We save approx 25k for the wall removal.

- We get to keep the wall which gives us more wall cabinet space.

- Simple facelift which minimizes all other cost like permits, electrical, plumbing etc. All appliances stay where they are so no cost of moving those.

- The above means that we can do more work by ourselves i.e. demo, cabinet install etc. We plan to hire specific trade for new gas line in kitchen, countertop install, electrical.

- Less money spent in kitchen allowing us to put our money in other places of the house.

Cons:

- We don't get the open concept which is sought after. We wonder how much does it affect the resale value of the house.

- We have already spent 3.5k in structural and other design and calculation for wall removal. That money is lost :(

@mjlb, @itsourcasa, @Muriel Thompson, @margaret17, @houssaon: Any inputs?

Thanks.

I repeatedly see people comment here that more people are moving away from open concept. To me, $25K is no small amount of money. I'd make my choice based on what I really wanted--not what I think would help sell the house to someone in the future. Do what will make you happiest with the money that you have to spend.

You have two walls in an L. Which is the retaining wall? Have you considered a hybrid option? Leave two support beams in either side of island and open up the wall? Or leave parts of the wall in and put in a "window" with bar seating? It should be much cheaper to relocate retaining elements than to remove them altogether. I personally like your open-concept plan and without it the kitchen seems cramped.

If you do built-ins all along your dining room wall that gives you quite a lot of storage. I'd suggest minimizing counter space on that wall since it won't be a great place to stand and work (with your back to everything, facing a blank wall). Instead maximize storage and get a dining table you can re-purpose for baking work. E.g. sturdy butcher block.

@margaret17 The wall which separates the kitchen from living room is load bearing. The other one which is next to front door and has pocket door is not.

We did thought about two post in middle which according to GC will cut the cost in half as the beam is reduced to half in size. We had hard time visualizing how it will look in the space to have two beams in middle of the space. What is window with bar seating?

Yes, our initial plan was to move oven and microwave to the dining room so it gives us the cabinet space in the island. I do not have specific opinion on this. But many people here and our KD were not a fan of it as it put appliances in the dining area. We don't think we need counter space in that area as such but it was mostly to not have appliance in that area.

Very quick photo search came up with this. You can make it smaller to remove the fewest load-bearing elements.

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@Muriel Thompson, @margaret17

Thanks for all the response again. Thinking of this I came up with this. It does not look that bad.

What I did was the have 8X8 columns (which is the most likely the one which will be put for the beam). I placed the columns so that one lines up with the small wall just next to front door and another lines up with the wall of the living room which makes L with dining room. I guess this will make the columns look less in middle of the space visually. This uses less than half of beam size and no tearing apart of two existing walls to put the columns. I guess with this approach we can do the column and beams in under 10k as compared to 22-25 of the no column (columns hidden in the wall on both end and big beam).

What are your thoughts on the visual appearance of this?

I think those columns take away almost nothing from what you'd envisioned. Do you also anticipate a header beam that connects those columns? It seems that you'd need a header there that wouldn't get recessed into the ceiling.

Strange. My comment vanished. Let me try again.

If they save you $15K, then the columns are totally worth it. You can look for decorative styles that match your kitchen design. They are definitely a better option than giving up on your dream of open-concept. The header that @Muriel Thompson is talking about would probably get recessed into the ceiling, which is why this is still pretty expensive. The pass-though window concepts that I sent have the header sitting below the ceiling (which is why the windows don't go all the way up). Since no work is needed in the ceiling, that solution should be significantly cheaper than even the columns.

I know that it is expensive move required plumbing and gas line to make this kitchen more feasible and functional but if I were in your shoes I would move this kitchen down to where your dining table is as an L shape. The way you have the kitchen laid out is not bad but I would have to center the Island.